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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 12, 2017 14:34:57 GMT
10-6-1997/2017 - Inca Mummy Girl
This is an interesting episode. I like that the writers incorporate Incan/South American culture, but I did feel it was a little slow in terms of pacing. I did like the idea of a resurrected mummy mystery for the Scoobies to solve, but I felt it missed the mark. I also felt that when Buffy saw the men's underwear, she should have worked out that Ampata was the mummy more quickly.
I will admit, Xander is not one of my favorite characters...*hides behind bush*...Here, and in many other instances, he comes off as very possessive of Buffy, and unappreciative of what he has or is standing right in front of him. But I did love at the end he was very brave and went against a girl who liked him in favor of doing the right thing by saving Willow and even offering to sacrifice himself to Ampata. I will give him brownie points for that. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Xander, but he annoys me a lot of the time, and some of the things he does throughout the series because of his prejudices and selfishness I really hate and disagree with. I do love Nicholas Brendon though, he plays Xander so well; some of his comedy and dramatic scenes are absolutely gold!
I appreciate Alyson's performance, her longing and slight acceptance that Xander will never love her the way she wants is sad but so well done.
No Angel in this episode! I didn't know that there was a season 2 episode without him since David was made a regular cast member. I think he was missed here because they could have easily had a scene where Buffy is sad about not getting to go to the dance/feeling left out/wanting to feel like a normal teenage girl, and Angel shows up and they talk about it, and he tells her that even though she isn't normal what she does is important, or something along those lines. Not only would it have gone with one of the themes of the episode, but it would make her feel better and Angel will have then made an appearance.
The one thing I love this episode for is Oz's introduction. That makes it worth viewing for me personally. Willow's Eskimo costume was great, and the fact that she stands out to Oz in it is just so cute! That is why I adore Oz! I also liked his line to Devon about how he is not picky with girls, he's just not so easily impressed by their looks or what they say.
Yay for a Jonathan appearance! I like that even though he is into Ampata when she is trying to kiss him, he stops and asks if she was with Xander. Aww, so sweet!
I like the premise of this episode, but I just don't think it turned out as good as it could have been. But, I agree with PreachCaleb in that all Buffy (and Angel) episodes have at least one thing, for me at least, worth watching. And I still believe that a bad episode if Buffy or Angel are better than half the stuff on TV nowadays.
How cute was Oz when he noticed Willow. Things like this are why I say every episode has something worth watching. Little character moments that will have such bigger implications later on. And yes, let's give it up for Jonathan in his first official appearance of the show. Anther character who will have much bigger effects on the show. This episode is odd in that it leaves out Angel with no real explanation. If I'm not mistaken, the same thing happens in Bad Girls with Oz. He's nowhere to be found, and Conversations With Dead People Leaves out Xander, probably the most shocking since he was one of the core Scoobies that had been in every episode up until that point. I did feel bad for Xander as I thought he and Ampata made a cute couple. But it is funny to see his continuation as a demon magnet.
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mmexis
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Post by mmexis on Oct 13, 2017 5:51:00 GMT
Sorry, only the Randy and Giles (and Randy Giles interactions) make me laugh. My favourite line from the episode: SPIKE: Dad can drive. He's bound to have some classic midlife-crisis transport. (puts arm around Giles's shoulder) Something red, shiny, shaped like a penis.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Oct 15, 2017 21:09:28 GMT
Yeah, you are right, Caleb. I can understand Angel's guilt and shame over it and not wanting Buffy to know that part of him, but he still should have warned them. He should have known if Spike and Dru came to the Hellmouth then they had a reason to. Maybe Angel was trying to find out more information behind the scenes and we (and Buffy) weren't privy to it?
I don't want to get ahead of myself, but Angel's confession to Buffy about Drusilla in Lie to Me is great.
I think his plan was what we see at the beginning of "Lie to Me." Try and convince Dru to leave. That's probably one of the most haunting scenes of the show. Beautifully lit and filled with so much tension. Like with Julie Benz, David has this instant chemistry with Juliet Landau. Again, their history has not really been established on the show, yet you can feel these characters have known each other for such a long time. And Angel's warning to Dru--"If you don't leave, it'll go badly. For all of us"--was even truer than either of them could've foreseen. Sorry, we both got a little ahead here.
That's ok, Caleb. It's hard not to get ahead of ourselves, lol.
Well said about the Angel and Dru scene, it is one of my favorite scenes between them. I agree as well about the chemistry between David, Julie, and Juliet, but I would add James into the mix too; the chemistry between him and David was great in addition to he and Juliet. I wasn't sure how he would work on Angel season 5, but they knocked it out of the park I think.
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Post by ag25 on Oct 15, 2017 21:17:37 GMT
I'm not a fan of Once more with feeling either. But I dislike Tabula Rasa even more. (ducks down to avoid rocks being thrown) Nooooo. How could you not love Joan, Alex, and Randy?! mmexis , I love both Once More with Feeling and Tabula Rasa, but I get it. I won't throw rocks at you, lol.
Caleb, I love Joan, Alex, and Randy! I am still amazed by Tabula Rasa, because it is a great balance between the comedy and drama as well as pushing the season 6 plot forward.
You also mentioned Caveman Buffy from Beer Bad, Caleb, and I love her too. Sarah did a great job! Beer Bad is not my favorite episode; I get why most people dislike it, and I agree for the most part, BUT other than hilarious CaveBuffy, I like that Willow sees through Parker and that he finally gets his comeuppance, from Buffy at least, and the "be a responsible drinker" lesson.
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Post by ag25 on Oct 15, 2017 21:43:48 GMT
10-6-1997/2017 - Inca Mummy Girl
This is an interesting episode. I like that the writers incorporate Incan/South American culture, but I did feel it was a little slow in terms of pacing. I did like the idea of a resurrected mummy mystery for the Scoobies to solve, but I felt it missed the mark. I also felt that when Buffy saw the men's underwear, she should have worked out that Ampata was the mummy more quickly.
I will admit, Xander is not one of my favorite characters...*hides behind bush*...Here, and in many other instances, he comes off as very possessive of Buffy, and unappreciative of what he has or is standing right in front of him. But I did love at the end he was very brave and went against a girl who liked him in favor of doing the right thing by saving Willow and even offering to sacrifice himself to Ampata. I will give him brownie points for that. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Xander, but he annoys me a lot of the time, and some of the things he does throughout the series because of his prejudices and selfishness I really hate and disagree with. I do love Nicholas Brendon though, he plays Xander so well; some of his comedy and dramatic scenes are absolutely gold!
I appreciate Alyson's performance, her longing and slight acceptance that Xander will never love her the way she wants is sad but so well done.
No Angel in this episode! I didn't know that there was a season 2 episode without him since David was made a regular cast member. I think he was missed here because they could have easily had a scene where Buffy is sad about not getting to go to the dance/feeling left out/wanting to feel like a normal teenage girl, and Angel shows up and they talk about it, and he tells her that even though she isn't normal what she does is important, or something along those lines. Not only would it have gone with one of the themes of the episode, but it would make her feel better and Angel will have then made an appearance.
The one thing I love this episode for is Oz's introduction. That makes it worth viewing for me personally. Willow's Eskimo costume was great, and the fact that she stands out to Oz in it is just so cute! That is why I adore Oz! I also liked his line to Devon about how he is not picky with girls, he's just not so easily impressed by their looks or what they say.
Yay for a Jonathan appearance! I like that even though he is into Ampata when she is trying to kiss him, he stops and asks if she was with Xander. Aww, so sweet!
I like the premise of this episode, but I just don't think it turned out as good as it could have been. But, I agree with PreachCaleb in that all Buffy (and Angel) episodes have at least one thing, for me at least, worth watching. And I still believe that a bad episode if Buffy or Angel are better than half the stuff on TV nowadays.
How cute was Oz when he noticed Willow. Things like this are why I say every episode has something worth watching. Little character moments that will have such bigger implications later on. And yes, let's give it up for Jonathan in his first official appearance of the show. Anther character who will have much bigger effects on the show. This episode is odd in that it leaves out Angel with no real explanation. If I'm not mistaken, the same thing happens in Bad Girls with Oz. He's nowhere to be found, and Conversations With Dead People Leaves out Xander, probably the most shocking since he was one of the core Scoobies that had been in every episode up until that point. I did feel bad for Xander as I thought he and Ampata made a cute couple. But it is funny to see his continuation as a demon magnet.
I get Angel and Oz being left out, but Xander??!!!! I forgot about that; that is surprising. He should have been in Conversations With Dead People, but I am not sure who he could have talked to though. Is there any behind the scenes explanation for why Nick missed the episode?
Yes, I agree that Xander and Ampata made a cute couple!
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Post by ag25 on Oct 15, 2017 23:22:19 GMT
10-13-1997/2017 - Reptile Boy
I really enjoyed the life lesson of this episode. The cautionary tale of date rape, irresponsible partying/drinking, and fraternity/sorority hazing come to the forefront. While we are supposed to disapprove of Buffy's lying and irresponsibility, we also sympathize with her. She's suffering under the pressure of being the Slayer, and her feelings for Angel, that she just wants to be a teenage girl. I think this is a continuation of her struggles in Inca Mummy Girl. The frat boys were great too. I like the two different approaches Tom and Richard have to Buffy and Cordelia. And that they faked us out into thinking Tom was the nice one, but he turned out to be the worst one.
I love Willow telling off both Giles and Angel for their behavior towards Buffy; funny with a dose of reality.
Usually, Xander's "possessiveness" of Buffy annoys me, but in this episode, I felt it was more out of the need to protect her, and maybe even Cordelia to an extent, which I really liked. Nick did a great job at the "new pledge" humiliation. He was finally let go, but he noticed Cordy's car was still there and he stayed at the house to try and find them. Also, he had a good idea with the robe on how to get into the frat house. Kudos to Xander! I also liked his comments about Angel at the end: "Angel, Angel, Angel. Does every conversation have to come around to that freak?" and "Hey man, how you doing" when Angel shows up behind him. Then "Xander" after Buffy and Angel say each other's names, lol!
Cordelia is hilarious here. He fake laugh is cringy, but in a good way. I love her blubbering at the end, "I hate you guys, bad stuff always happens to me when I'm around you" and then her total 180 when she sees Tom "and you are going to jail for 15,000 years!" lol. Showing her humor and her strength at the same time. Hmm, another hug between her and Angel, or rather Cordy hugging Angel. Funny. I like that Cordelia is utilized here for the plot of the episode instead of regulated to just comedy or as a love interest.
Buffy and Angel's conversation about the realities of their relationship and the problems that can/will come out of it is great. Her line about when she kisses Angel "she wants to die" is haunting. I like that it is the opposite of what you think she will say.
The monster at the frat house looked fantastic! Great prosthetics and I loved how he moved.
Overall, good story and everyone is pretty strong in this episode, so great monster of the week episode.
P.S. funny this viewing fell on Friday the 13th.
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Post by Chalice_Of_Evil on Oct 16, 2017 7:35:49 GMT
I get Angel and Oz being left out, but Xander??!!!! I forgot about that; that is surprising. He should have been in Conversations With Dead People, but I am not sure who he could have talked to though. Is there any behind the scenes explanation for why Nick missed the episode?
I could be wrong, but I think this was just an instance of Xander not ‘fitting’ in the episode. And as you suggested, there probably wasn’t really anyone for him to ‘talk’ to.
Personally, I feel it would have somewhat ‘ruined’ the episode (one of my favourites from Season 7 – of which there aren’t many – and one of my favourite episodes of the show, I think) if they’d just shoehorned him in – at least for me it would have.
I do remember it being noticeable that Xander was absent, but I was too engrossed in the different ‘conversations’ going on between characters to really be bothered by it.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 16, 2017 14:37:12 GMT
I get Angel and Oz being left out, but Xander??!!!! I forgot about that; that is surprising. He should have been in Conversations With Dead People, but I am not sure who he could have talked to though. Is there any behind the scenes explanation for why Nick missed the episode?I could be wrong, but I think this was just an instance of Xander not ‘fitting’ in the episode. And as you suggested, there probably wasn’t really anyone for him to ‘talk’ to. Personally, I feel it would have somewhat ‘ruined’ the episode (one of my favourites from Season 7 – of which there aren’t many – and one of my favourite episodes of the show, I think) if they’d just shoehorned him in – at least for me it would have. I do remember it being noticeable that Xander was absent, but I was too engrossed in the different ‘conversations’ going on between characters to really be bothered by it. I honestly didn't even notice his absence until it was pointed out sometime after the episode had aired. It does go to show how engrossing, as you put it, the episode was.
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Post by PreachCaleb on Oct 16, 2017 14:38:49 GMT
10-13-1997/2017 - Reptile Boy
I really enjoyed the life lesson of this episode. The cautionary tale of date rape, irresponsible partying/drinking, and fraternity/sorority hazing come to the forefront. While we are supposed to disapprove of Buffy's lying and irresponsibility, we also sympathize with her. She's suffering under the pressure of being the Slayer, and her feelings for Angel, that she just wants to be a teenage girl. I think this is a continuation of her struggles in Inca Mummy Girl. The frat boys were great too. I like the two different approaches Tom and Richard have to Buffy and Cordelia. And that they faked us out into thinking Tom was the nice one, but he turned out to be the worst one.
I love Willow telling off both Giles and Angel for their behavior towards Buffy; funny with a dose of reality.
Usually, Xander's "possessiveness" of Buffy annoys me, but in this episode, I felt it was more out of the need to protect her, and maybe even Cordelia to an extent, which I really liked. Nick did a great job at the "new pledge" humiliation. He was finally let go, but he noticed Cordy's car was still there and he stayed at the house to try and find them. Also, he had a good idea with the robe on how to get into the frat house. Kudos to Xander! I also liked his comments about Angel at the end: "Angel, Angel, Angel. Does every conversation have to come around to that freak?" and "Hey man, how you doing" when Angel shows up behind him. Then "Xander" after Buffy and Angel say each other's names, lol!
Cordelia is hilarious here. He fake laugh is cringy, but in a good way. I love her blubbering at the end, "I hate you guys, bad stuff always happens to me when I'm around you" and then her total 180 when she sees Tom "and you are going to jail for 15,000 years!" lol. Showing her humor and her strength at the same time. Hmm, another hug between her and Angel, or rather Cordy hugging Angel. Funny. I like that Cordelia is utilized here for the plot of the episode instead of regulated to just comedy or as a love interest.
Buffy and Angel's conversation about the realities of their relationship and the problems that can/will come out of it is great. Her line about when she kisses Angel "she wants to die" is haunting. I like that it is the opposite of what you think she will say.
The monster at the frat house looked fantastic! Great prosthetics and I loved how he moved.
Overall, good story and everyone is pretty strong in this episode, so great monster of the week episode.
P.S. funny this viewing fell on Friday the 13th. I liked Machida's design also. Much better than the cobra from "Shadow." Reptile Boy is a really good episode in showing us the difficulties Buffy and Angel will endure as they try to make their relationship work.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Oct 19, 2017 0:01:34 GMT
I get Angel and Oz being left out, but Xander??!!!! I forgot about that; that is surprising. He should have been in Conversations With Dead People, but I am not sure who he could have talked to though. Is there any behind the scenes explanation for why Nick missed the episode?I could be wrong, but I think this was just an instance of Xander not ‘fitting’ in the episode. And as you suggested, there probably wasn’t really anyone for him to ‘talk’ to. Personally, I feel it would have somewhat ‘ruined’ the episode (one of my favourites from Season 7 – of which there aren’t many – and one of my favourite episodes of the show, I think) if they’d just shoehorned him in – at least for me it would have. I do remember it being noticeable that Xander was absent, but I was too engrossed in the different ‘conversations’ going on between characters to really be bothered by it. I honestly didn't even notice his absence until it was pointed out sometime after the episode had aired. It does go to show how engrossing, as you put it, the episode was. I agree with you both Chalice_Of_Evil and PreachCaleb .
I guess Xander would have felt shoehorned in, and yes the episode was absolutely engrossing! One of my favorites too. Freaks me out every time Cassie turns into the First.
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Post by ag25 on Nov 1, 2017 0:52:25 GMT
10-27-1997/2017 - Halloween
What a fun episode on the outside with wonderful serious moments underneath! A good story idea for a Halloween episode; different than a haunted house or being attacked by monsters (like the show is every week, lol), but turning into your costume is a great idea! As Ethan said "be careful what you wish for." On the surface, having the cast turn into their costumes is fun and comical. But delving deeper, we get to see the actors play their roles differently (their versatility) and see a different aspect of the characters. And, Xander and, more importantly, Buffy get to experience being a different person on the outside, while their true selves are locked in on the inside. That is what will soon happen with Angel when he turns into Angelus, so it is interesting (foreshadowing?) that they feel the way Angel will feel being locked inside Angelus in the later part of the season. I don't think they mention this at any point later in the series, which is sad as it seams like a sort of missed opportunity. Anyway, we also get a taste of young badass Giles (again setting the stage for the later episode The Dark Age) as well as Ethan's introduction, and Spike and Larry are particularly creepy. Children turning into real demons is freaky too.
Speaking of Spike, I like that he and Dru are there but they don't dominate the episode. We see that we should take him very seriously as a villain when he has his minion videotape Buffy as she fights and when he captures the helpless Buffy. He also hints at he and Dru's real purpose of why they are in Sunnydale, by mentioning that they need to be there to heal/fix Drusilla. And her vision could be construed not only as foreshadowing of what happens in the episode, but also what will happen to Angel. I love the lines when Dru asks Spike if he "loves every part of her, even the parts he can't see" and he responds "eyeballs to entrails," I love how this can be funny, gross, and so sweet all at the same time.
Nick was great as military guy. I loved seeing the more serious side of him, and his calmness and intelligence in a bad situation, with putting just a tiny bit of comedy in the performance to remind us that he is still Xander. And giving his jacket to Cordy is more foreshowing of their future relationship.
I like that this episode deals with Buffy and Willow's insecurities with themselves. I think Cordelia is used so well here; her intro with Angel (again amusing considering how close she and Angel will actually become) was good in that she wasn't really hitting on him, she was talking about Devon the whole time, but then wanted to be bitchy and poke fun at Buffy's appearance and later insecurities about her appeal to Angel. Which of course leads to Buffy wanting the 18th century dress and her experience as a prim and proper lady. Cordy was then used well, I think, later on when she has not turned into her costume and is important in keeping the gang alive and the plot moving. Willow serves this purpose too, but can't do as much as Cordelia and Giles because she is a ghost. Willow is also insecure, but then gains a little bit of confidence by the end; good for her. And yay for Oz bumping into Willow and him seeing her yet again! Sarah, of course, was great at playing the opposite of Buffy; even the slight change in her accent was great. Adorable scene between Angel and Buffy at the end, they looked so young! And nice insight into his character/past/human life.
All in all a really good episode, fun and serious in all the right places, while still setting up more story lines for the rest of the season.
Happy Halloween, everyone!
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Post by PreachCaleb on Nov 1, 2017 13:38:52 GMT
Buffy's best Halloween episode by far.
My favorite thing is that Ethan wasn't introduced in some grand scheme-type episode. It was just a one-off Halloween monster-of-the-week story. But he's still woven in Giles' history and the seeds are planted for character development for Giles.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Nov 1, 2017 23:07:17 GMT
Buffy's best Halloween episode by far. My favorite thing is that Ethan wasn't introduced in some grand scheme-type episode. It was just a one-off Halloween monster-of-the-week story. But he's still woven in Giles' history and the seeds are planted for character development for Giles.
Exactly!
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Post by ag25 on Nov 18, 2017 22:06:14 GMT
11-3-1997/2017 - Lie to Me
I have read/heard in the past that many fans think that Lie to Me is the episode where the show finds itself and is taken seriously. That it's not just a campy, badass girl show, but a show that can have real depth and seriousness. And I agree. I love Lie to Me in that it shows some of the ugly truth and darkness that can be in life, while also having a few little comical moments. I love how it kind of shifts Buffy's black and white view of the world to a more gray one. And, it is also an important episode for Buffy's coming of age story, if that is the right phrase. The shift in her world view shows her growing up and maturing, yet also highlights her youth.
One of my favorite things about this episode is that the bad guy is a human. Yes, Spike and Dru are there, but they are secondary here and Ford is the primary antagonist. As I mentioned above, I like how even though we know what Ford does is wrong, but we still feel a little sympathy for him. This is driven home in the exchange between Ford and Buffy at the end. The acting was great here. Buffy's shock, sadness, and sympathy, but then her self-righteousness wins when she says "I'm sorry. I had no idea. But what you are doing is still very wrong". And later "you have a choice, not a good one, but you still have one" is great because that is what I believe. We always have a choice. It may not be a good choice, but we always have one; and I love that that is highlighted here. Such a complex story that is twisty and has emotional depth and mystery. It's a hard life lesson for Buffy, but an important one, and foreshadows the even harder one she will learn by the end of the season regarding Angel/Angelus.
I do like how this episode goes into more about the vampire lore, although I am not sure how true it is despite it being written by Mr. Joss Whedon himself. The "demon sets up shop in your body and has your memories, but isn't you" is something I contend with. In fact, we do see later in the series and in Angel, that this is not entirely the case. I understand what he was trying to convey, and it was also probably a way to prepare the audience for Angelus (to show that he is not Angel), but Spike and Harmony (and others) are the main examples of vampires feeling and being more than a soulless bad guy. I don't mean to get onto a debate, but it is a more complex issue than what we are told in this episode as we will come to find out later on.
Surprisingly, Xander's jealousy doesn't bother me in this episode. Sure, this could be because he is right about Ford, but for me I think it's because it is not directed at Angel (it doesn't stem from his prejudice). And he is cordial to Angel in the episode...for the most part, lol. He didn't go overboard with it and I liked that. I also love his comments, "You're not wrong", at the Bronze about Angel when Ford is talking about Angel.
I like seeing one on one scenes between Willow and Angel. I have said this before, but I like their subtle little friendship and I wish we could have seen more of it. I also like that Angel feels comfortable (as far as I can tell) being open with Willow and talking about his feelings about Buffy and his past with her. And I love her line about sore thumbs sticking out.
Yay for Giles and Jenny dating! I absolutely love that she took him to monster trucks! Hilarious!
The opening scene between Angel and Drusilla is wonderful. Like his scene in season 1 with Darla, I feel the history between them. One of my favorite scenes between them. And I love her line "she has no idea what's in store". Nope, Buffy, and we the audience, have no idea what is going to happen. Good foreshadowing. (How many times can I say foreshadowing? lol).
I also love the scene where Angel confesses to Buffy what he did to Drusilla. It's a beautiful scene that is intense yet also a little sweet. Her delivery of "I love you. I don't know if I trust you" only adds to that.
I like how Spike actually does keep his word and turns Ford. Not sure if this was a way to torture Buffy or not...probably was. At the end when Ford asks what happened, and Spike says they are locked in and over his shoulder you see Drusilla shaking her head and frowning, it always makes me laugh and feel pity for Ford, because I'm thinking if you get Dru mad at you then you really are screwed, lol. I do like the scene between Ford, Spike, and Dru. "I've known you for two minutes and I don't fancy you living forever, can I eat him now, love?" LOL! Also, the female blond vamp who steals the book and delivers it to Spike is a great example of moving the plot along in this episode, but also setting up future episodes about why Spike and Dru are in Sunnydale. I love it when that happens!
And here is the introduction of the character of Chantal, later known as Anne. I love her and her little story arc over the course of Buffy and Angel. Here is an example of part of the brilliance of the show(s), even what should have been a one and done background character gets to grow and develop just as much as a more major character like Angel, Cordelia, and Faith.
Buffy and Giles' scene together at the end is one of my favorites between them. So sweet.
Overall, I think Lie to Me is one of the best episodes of season 2, and maybe even the series. A great dramatic episode with a big dose of reality, subtle hints at character's pasts, and a little bit of comedy.
P.S. Sorry that I have been MIA for a while. My dad passed away on Nov. 3rd. My mom and I have been traveling and getting things settled, so it has been a whirlwind. But watching and discussing Buffy and Angel is a great distraction and something that brings me joy. I will eventually catch up with my analysis.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Nov 18, 2017 23:44:57 GMT
I get Angel and Oz being left out, but Xander??!!!! I forgot about that; that is surprising. He should have been in Conversations With Dead People, but I am not sure who he could have talked to though. Is there any behind the scenes explanation for why Nick missed the episode?I could be wrong, but I think this was just an instance of Xander not ‘fitting’ in the episode. And as you suggested, there probably wasn’t really anyone for him to ‘talk’ to. Personally, I feel it would have somewhat ‘ruined’ the episode (one of my favourites from Season 7 – of which there aren’t many – and one of my favourite episodes of the show, I think) if they’d just shoehorned him in – at least for me it would have. I do remember it being noticeable that Xander was absent, but I was too engrossed in the different ‘conversations’ going on between characters to really be bothered by it. I honestly didn't even notice his absence until it was pointed out sometime after the episode had aired. It does go to show how engrossing, as you put it, the episode was. Anecdotally, I've heard there were plans for Xander to be part of the episode, conversing with Jesse; which would have been an awesome callback to the very start of the series, especially when they never actually bring him up after the first episode. I believe the reason this didn't happen was that the actor who had played Jesse wasn't available. And as idle speculation goes, this was season 7, and as I understand it Nicholas Brandon's substance abuse problems were already affecting production, to the point that while they weren't inclined to write Xander off like they did with Doyle, the writers were purportedly not writing as much for him in the later seasons. It's hard to imagine how that might have fit in the episode, but it's not impossible; and arguably should have been done, even if it sacrificed something else, like the stuff with the Trio. I mean they could have worked that part either in some other episode, or truncated it to make room for the inclusion of an important core character. Hell, they could have had Xander have some sort of encounter with Jonathan and have the two converse throughout the episode; only to reveal that Jonathan had been dead the whole time and Xander finds his body on the seal or something. Personally, while I think the episode was ambitious, in hindsight I feel it was a little bit of a mess; in large part because of how it fit with the rest of the season. In addition to omitting Xander, we have the ambiguity of whether or not Dawn is actually talking to Joyce or the First, and based on how the rest of the season played out, it probably had to be the First; yet there was a display of power in the scenes with Dawn that the First hadn't really shown before or after, suggesting she was originally meant to really be Joyce, giving advice to Dawn about Buffy related to a story that never played out. Then there's Willow's conversation, which is definitively the First, but inexplicably choses the guise of someone Willow doesn't really know, in a bid to rattle her and try to convince her to kill herself by invoking Tara's memory. I get why Amber Benson didn't want to return for that role, to a point, but from a story standpoint it doesn't make sense why the First simply didn't use Tara's form, or the form of someone with a deeper connection to Willow - Warren comes to mind. Instead of being off with Jonathan and Andrew, it would have made more sense if Warren appeared to be haunting Willow; which I think would have upped the creep factor of the episode, if you're not sure if it's really Warren, Willow's conscience or something/someone else. It'd also make the idea more believable of the First getting under Willow's skin, so to speak, and almost convince her to kill herself. On top of all that though, then we have Buffy's part of the story; which was admittedly entertaining, and I could see that as having maybe been the cornerstone concept from which the other stories were developed - "Buffy stops mid-fight to have a conversation with a vampire that she apparently went to school with; and while she has this conversation with one dead person, the other characters are having their own conversation with other dead people, and we'll call it Talking Dead... No that's a stupid title. We'll think of something to call it..." And that might have been fine if the assumed original intent of the episode was that each of the characters were talking to separate dead people; Buffy's talking to Holden, Dawn really is talking to Joyce, Andrew is talking to the First - although there's no ambiguity that both Andrew and Willow were both unquestionably always talking to the First, but in hindsight we have everyone but Buffy talking to the First; and it seems like this incongruent, broken pattern, that bugs me. Like seeing a row of pictures and one of them is tilted and upside down. In writing this response, I admit to needing to look up some of the details to refresh my memory; and in so doing I saw that the episode was actually written by four separate writers concurrently, due to time constraints, which all told doesn't surprised me. It almost seems like a "duh" moment of realization, that of course, given these incongruities, it would make sense that each story was probably written by someone different, even if albeit working from a shared outline, and then stitched together afterwards; and it makes me wonder what the episode might have been like if that hadn't been the case and was written more like a normal episode.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Nov 24, 2017 20:03:34 GMT
I honestly didn't even notice his absence until it was pointed out sometime after the episode had aired. It does go to show how engrossing, as you put it, the episode was. Anecdotally, I've heard there were plans for Xander to be part of the episode, conversing with Jesse; which would have been an awesome callback to the very start of the series, especially when they never actually bring him up after the first episode. I believe the reason this didn't happen was that the actor who had played Jesse wasn't available. And as idle speculation goes, this was season 7, and as I understand it Nicholas Brandon's substance abuse problems were already affecting production, to the point that while they weren't inclined to write Xander off like they did with Doyle, the writers were purportedly not writing as much for him in the later seasons. It's hard to imagine how that might have fit in the episode, but it's not impossible; and arguably should have been done, even if it sacrificed something else, like the stuff with the Trio. I mean they could have worked that part either in some other episode, or truncated it to make room for the inclusion of an important core character. Hell, they could have had Xander have some sort of encounter with Jonathan and have the two converse throughout the episode; only to reveal that Jonathan had been dead the whole time and Xander finds his body on the seal or something. Personally, while I think the episode was ambitious, in hindsight I feel it was a little bit of a mess; in large part because of how it fit with the rest of the season. In addition to omitting Xander, we have the ambiguity of whether or not Dawn is actually talking to Joyce or the First, and based on how the rest of the season played out, it probably had to be the First; yet there was a display of power in the scenes with Dawn that the First hadn't really shown before or after, suggesting she was originally meant to really be Joyce, giving advice to Dawn about Buffy related to a story that never played out. Then there's Willow's conversation, which is definitively the First, but inexplicably choses the guise of someone Willow doesn't really know, in a bid to rattle her and try to convince her to kill herself by invoking Tara's memory. I get why Amber Benson didn't want to return for that role, to a point, but from a story standpoint it doesn't make sense why the First simply didn't use Tara's form, or the form of someone with a deeper connection to Willow - Warren comes to mind. Instead of being off with Jonathan and Andrew, it would have made more sense if Warren appeared to be haunting Willow; which I think would have upped the creep factor of the episode, if you're not sure if it's really Warren, Willow's conscience or something/someone else. It'd also make the idea more believable of the First getting under Willow's skin, so to speak, and almost convince her to kill herself. On top of all that though, then we have Buffy's part of the story; which was admittedly entertaining, and I could see that as having maybe been the cornerstone concept from which the other stories were developed - "Buffy stops mid-fight to have a conversation with a vampire that she apparently went to school with; and while she has this conversation with one dead person, the other characters are having their own conversation with other dead people, and we'll call it Talking Dead... No that's a stupid title. We'll think of something to call it..." And that might have been fine if the assumed original intent of the episode was that each of the characters were talking to separate dead people; Buffy's talking to Holden, Dawn really is talking to Joyce, Andrew is talking to the First - although there's no ambiguity that both Andrew and Willow were both unquestionably always talking to the First, but in hindsight we have everyone but Buffy talking to the First; and it seems like this incongruent, broken pattern, that bugs me. Like seeing a row of pictures and one of them is tilted and upside down. In writing this response, I admit to needing to look up some of the details to refresh my memory; and in so doing I saw that the episode was actually written by four separate writers concurrently, due to time constraints, which all told doesn't surprised me. It almost seems like a "duh" moment of realization, that of course, given these incongruities, it would make sense that each story was probably written by someone different, even if albeit working from a shared outline, and then stitched together afterwards; and it makes me wonder what the episode might have been like if that hadn't been the case and was written more like a normal episode.
I agree, stargazer. While I do really like Conversations with Dead People, I do agree with the points you made about the problems/inconsistencies with the episode. Now that you mention it, I do remember reading somewhere about Jesse coming back to talk to Xander. I think that would have been marvelous! Even if they couldn't get the actor, then Xander talking with Jonathan would have been much better. I like the Trio, but it would have meant more to have the First talking to Xander, and would have made the plot move along faster that it did in the show. Same with Buffy. I like her conversation with Holden, but it would have been more relevant if it was the First and I, too, find it odd that in such an important episode where the First "reveals" itself, that it doesn't talk to Buffy. And, I also agree that it should have been Warren that was talking to Willow. He "meant" more to her and they did this later anyway in The Killer in Me (Warren wasn't the First, but it served the same purpose to freak Willow out). Now, how they would work in Andrew, I'm not sure. While I did find him entertaining, was he needed? (Not really, but it was nice to have another male around, lol) And with Nick's substance abuse I get why his role was reduced. This episode being written by 4 different writers would be a problem in cohesion. While I do really like the episode, I do agree that it is a little bit flawed.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Nov 24, 2017 21:14:46 GMT
Arguably you need Andrew to establish that he killed Jonathan; or at least what happened to him after he and Jonathan fled to Mexico - though I suppose if you only saw Jonathan return, most people wouldn't wonder too much what happened to Andrew. In hindsight, it might have been interesting if they kept Jonathan's murderer ambiguous, which could keep Principal Woods looking even more suspicious, until it becomes clear in subsequent episodes that Andrew did it; yet he keeps telling how it happened a different way, until the very end when admits how he killed the one person who was closest to being his friend and his tears close the seal like how it actually happened.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Nov 24, 2017 21:53:40 GMT
11-10-1997/2017 - The Dark Age
Yay for a Giles centric episode! I love that we see that Giles was actually the opposite of what/who we think he is when he was young. And the saying: the things we do in our past/youth can come back and bite us in the ass definitely applies in this episode. I like that this episode essentially knocks Giles off of the pedestal he is on and we get to see that he is not perfect and is capable of making mistakes too. This makes him more human and a more relatable character. Lots of character growth and development in this episode.
I love the two personal conversations Buffy and Giles have in the episode. Both remind me of the one between them later on at the end of Innocence. Giles is ashamed of his behavior and is looking for forgiveness, just like Buffy does later, except the roles are reversed here with Giles as the one who is ashamed of disappointing Buffy. Beautiful moments between them and moments that allow them to grow closer and understand the other better.
Ethan's reemergence is great. I remember when I first saw this episode I was surprised that he came back so soon. I love the character and his interactions with Giles and Buffy. Ethan may not seem like a big threat, but when he tricks the demon into thinking Buffy is the one at fault for all of his actions and is willing to sacrifice an innocent girl to save his own skin, we see that he can be pretty evil and despicable.
Any episode that highlights Giles and Jenny's relationship is great with me. I like that they are able to utilize Jenny more here and she is not just in the background.
I really liked that the gang had to research and figure out what to do about Eyghon without Giles. It showed obviously that they care but that they have learned from Giles and are capable of handling things on their own. I thought it was cute and a good little character moment for Cordelia when she was enthusiastic with Buffy about how she could help because she "cares about Giles too".
I found it really cleaver in how they defeated the demon. Have Angel threaten it so it goes into him and let Angelus (?) fight it. Different in that it wasn't Buffy who defeated it, and that they had to figure out how to kill the demon without killing Jenny.
All in all, a great character episode that may not move the season plot along but does hint at/foreshadow some things.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Nov 24, 2017 22:03:52 GMT
Arguably you need Andrew to establish that he killed Jonathan; or at least what happened to him after he and Jonathan fled to Mexico - though I suppose if you only saw Jonathan return, most people wouldn't wonder too much what happened to Andrew. In hindsight, it might have been interesting if they kept Jonathan's murderer ambiguous, which could keep Principal Woods looking even more suspicious, until it becomes clear in subsequent episodes that Andrew did it; yet he keeps telling how it happened a different way, until the very end when admits how he killed the one person who was closest to being his friend and his tears close the seal like how it actually happened.
Yes, definitely.
I do love Storyteller for it's comedy, but truly the dramatic end. To finally have Andrew relevant and to express contrition was great.
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ag25
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Post by ag25 on Nov 26, 2017 2:35:43 GMT
11-17-1997/2017 - What's My Line Part 1 11-24-1997/2017 - What's My Line Part 2
I will be combining What's My Line Parts 1 and 2 in this review/analysis so I can catch up more easily. What a nice pair of episodes that go into Slayer lore, a little vampire lore, and Buffy's identity. I like that these episodes take place over the course of career week. It still takes place at the school yet is different. This of course opens the door for Buffy's depression over her Slayer duties and the fact that her life has already been chosen for her. Like Angel, she is a part of life yet not a part of it, and the career week rubs this in her face.
I like that the show teased us and made us think that Kendra was one of the assassins, and then we are totally thrown for a loop in that she is another vampire slayer. I like that they made Buffy's death mean even more here (and not only tie back to season 1) where we see how different Buffy's life could have been even more different with a different Watcher, friends, etc. Kendra shows how special Buffy truly is. I like that they are both able to connect and understand each other in the end. And I love the line where Kendra tells Buffy that being the Slayer isn't just a job, "it's who you are".
I also liked that we got to get more information on the Watcher's Council and how they operate; and that there is a Slayer handbook, lol.
I loved seeing Buffy ice skate; kudos to Sarah for her skills there. It showed us something new and even trivial about Buffy that we didn't know and then gave us the sweet moment between her and Angel at the ice rink. Love that.
We finally learn why Spike and Drusilla are in Sunnydale. We knew it was to heal Dru, but we didn't know that they needed Angel, as Drusilla's sire, to do it. I love how they built up to this over the course of several episodes with their introduction and connection to Angel, then Dru's sickness/weakness, then the revelation that Angel sired Dru, and finally they get to the ritual to restore Drusilla. I like that they give Spike and Dru depth as villains and history with one of the main characters. It's interesting, we normally don't have to worry about Angel; he is the guy who comes in to help fight, but here he is the one who needs to be rescued. Also, I remember reading somewhere that Spike was originally meant to die in this episode, and boy am I glad they changed their minds. He is a very interesting and entertaining character. Although I do wonder how different the rest of the season (and the series for that matter) would have been had they killed Spike off here.
Yay for Willow and Oz finally meeting each other. I noticed for the first time that when he sees her he kind of does a double take and his face says "oh, there's that girl!" but then he doesn't know what to say, lol. And then later on, he barely knows her and he essentially takes a bullet for Willow! This makes me love Oz even more; he's a genuinely a good person. Lol at the monkey pants exchange!
Lol at Xander and Cordelia! Is it me or does Xander get bolder with his insults to her after they kiss the first time? Overcompensation?
I do think Joyce should have made an appearance. She could have had a little scene with Buffy to make her feel better about her identity crisis.
Hmmm, I thought I had more to say about these episodes. I liked them and thought they were wonderful! If I think of anything else I'll add it later.
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