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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 19:21:18 GMT
2) If it is a society so technologically advanced that energy is plentiful and free, matter replicators exist, and all labour is done by machines. Humans would then do only whatever pleases them. Artists would be artists, engineers would be engineers, doctors would be doctors. ...and you just described the Culture in a nutshell. Which is part of what I mean when I say Trek doesn't do it too well. On the upside : if Starfleet ships are anything to go by, productivity is up massively. The E-D is as big as 15 or 20 nuclear supercarriers; yet it runs on 1/5 the crew - and some of those are civilians and children. Most of what happens on the ship pretty much HAS to be automated. And we do know their computers are pretty damn smart, able to interpret high-level English commands largely flawlessly and simulate conscious beings easily. Hell, in modern Trek you have software asking for equal rights! So in a world where 1 man can do the work of 100+ because most of the tech can run itself, it may be that the small number who enjoy any given job are enough. Also, there seems to be a cultural expectation that people do some sort of work. Peer pressure may be enough to motivate some. And doing a menial job may be something expected of the younger people before they settle down to a "real" job. Equally, there may be a sizeable class who just laze around and we just never hear much about them. All it really needs is for your technology to be good enough that the number who want to do any given job are enough to provide that service for the rest. It could work... it's just kind of obvious that the writers didn't really think it through and seek to really depict things thst way. Cool. Which one did you get?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 19:27:57 GMT
I used to belong to a Trek forum where we once debated (for what seemed like centuries) the issue of who the hell deals with the sewers and plumbing in the Trek universe. Some truly hilarious apologists suggested that people just enjoyed doing those jobs. Whereas I would wonder if those jobs even exist any more. What's wrong with that? I hate beaches, you couldn't force me to live next to one.
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Post by Jep Gambardella on Oct 11, 2017 19:50:35 GMT
2) If it is a society so technologically advanced that energy is plentiful and free, matter replicators exist, and all labour is done by machines. Humans would then do only whatever pleases them. Artists would be artists, engineers would be engineers, doctors would be doctors. ...and you just described the Culture in a nutshell. Which is part of what I mean when I say Trek doesn't do it too well. On the upside : if Starfleet ships are anything to go by, productivity is up massively. The E-D is as big as 15 or 20 nuclear supercarriers; yet it runs on 1/5 the crew - and some of those are civilians and children. Most of what happens on the ship pretty much HAS to be automated. And we do know their computers are pretty damn smart, able to interpret high-level English commands largely flawlessly and simulate conscious beings easily. Hell, in modern Trek you have software asking for equal rights! So in a world where 1 man can do the work of 100+ because most of the tech can run itself, it may be that the small number who enjoy any given job are enough. Also, there seems to be a cultural expectation that people do some sort of work. Peer pressure may be enough to motivate some. And doing a menial job may be something expected of the younger people before they settle down to a "real" job. Equally, there may be a sizeable class who just laze around and we just never hear much about them. All it really needs is for your technology to be good enough that the number who want to do any given job are enough to provide that service for the rest. It could work... it's just kind of obvious that the writers didn't really think it through and seek to really depict things thst way. Cool. Which one did you get? Yeah, OK, you make some good points. I am still not convinced that it is possible to have a moneyless society but I think we both agree that the idea is not well developed in the Star Trek universe. I had to look up in my spreadsheet to see which Culture novel I have. It is "Surface Detail", purchased in January 2014 for CDN$5.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 19:54:11 GMT
Ahhh, not read that one.
My favourites are Consider Phlebas and The Player of Games. The latter will give you the best look at the Culture, although most of it is set outside the Culture itself. Use of Weapons is also a good one, though the structure is a little... odd.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 19:59:50 GMT
I used to belong to a Trek forum where we once debated (for what seemed like centuries) the issue of who the hell deals with the sewers and plumbing in the Trek universe. Some truly hilarious apologists suggested that people just enjoyed doing those jobs. Whereas I would wonder if those jobs even exist any more. Even assuming everything is automated, someone, somewhere will still need to do maintenance and get their hands dirty. Sure, but assuming there are 10 available houses on the beach and 11 people who want to live there, you still need a system for deciding who gets it whether that's capitalism, first come first serve, inheritance etc. Simply fobbing the question off by suggesting... meh, some people just won't want to live there is too convenient. I always wondered how Sisko's dad owned that restaurant for example. I mean, if property and wealth don't exist, how can he own it? And can I come along with an even better restaurant and demand his property?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 21:06:49 GMT
Whereas I would wonder if those jobs even exist any more. Even assuming everything is automated, someone, somewhere will still need to do maintenance and get their hands dirty. Perhaps. Perhaps not. Still, I will certainly grant that there will likely be undesirable tasks of some sort that still need doing by people. But like I said upthread, all that's really needed for the system to function is that those few who want to, or are willing to, do the dirty work is enough that all the needed dirty work gets done. We see hints that there's a cultural expectation that people do something productive with their time. I can easily believe that enough people take an attitude something like "sewage work isn't exactly the job of my dreams, but it needs doing. I'll volunteer for it for one year as a public service before I get seriously into my dream job of being a sculptor." Again, there are possible answers. For one, there's going to be just that much more beach available. How so? Well, it's not just being on the beach, right? It's being on the beach in a good location - close enough to your work, close enough to transport hubs, close enough to places you need to go - the store, the cinema, etc. But in a society with transporters, there really is no such thing as "close to" any more. There isn't a spot on Earth that is more than ten seconds travel time away from any other spot on Earth. How much beach space lies empty right now because it's twenty miles away from the nearest town? All those spaces are available in future Earth. And that's before you consider that there are other planets you can go to. We've seen entire planets in Star Trek that literally have like two people on them! Deneva, a planet which had been colonised for over a hundred years as of TOS, had a population of of less than one million - the biggest city had a population of 100,000. If beaches are really that important to you, just move to Deneva - there's plenty! Every single person on the planet could probably have a beachfront property if they wanted one. Admittedly you wind up being possessed by an alien parasite that causes you endless agony, but one can't have everything! And Kirk sorted them buggers out, anyway. But again, I will grant the principle that there may be something that is not available in endless supply. How are such things rationed out? We have no idea. Perhaps the government takes control of such things and rations them out on a "first come, first served" basis, or according to some metric of how much people need them, etc. It's stuff like this that makes me say the Trek universe is not a good depiction of what a moneyless society would be like. The writers mention it now and again, but it's obvious that nobody has ever sat down and thought through how it would work, so we never really see any attempt to depict the details. We're just told that it is, and then left to try and retrofit how it works. Which, just to shill for Iain Banks again, is why I like his Culture books. He actually sat down and put effort into thinking about such things, and it shows in his writing. We don't actually know that he does own it. He may be a tenant in a property owned by the government, which he got after being chosen as the best tenant for it, or after being on a waiting list. Like I say, the writers obviously haven't thought about it, so whilst we can think of all sorts of ways that it might work, we just don't know.
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Post by paislene on Oct 11, 2017 21:20:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 22:01:58 GMT
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Oct 11, 2017 23:41:10 GMT
I'm all for anything different. So far, this feels like the same old same old.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2017 23:48:17 GMT
I'm all for anything different. So far, this feels like the same old same old. Really? To me, it feels like they've finally decide to try something new. It might not work -- and it definitely has some teething problems -- but it does seem like they're trying something else with this one.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Oct 11, 2017 23:50:44 GMT
I'm all for anything different. So far, this feels like the same old same old. Really? To me, it feels like they've finally decide to try something new. It might not work -- and it definitely has some teething problems -- but it does seem like they're trying something else with this one. It all feels pretty standard to me ( so far ) Hopefully, that will change.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Oct 11, 2017 23:52:24 GMT
I do like the "Kelvin-verse" look and feel.
It's all very cinematic ( and makes The Orville look like a cheap joke )
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Oct 11, 2017 23:53:25 GMT
I don't really like the characters ( or the acting ) of most of the crew.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2017 2:21:15 GMT
If that spoiler is true, it would go some way towards regenerating Discovery in my eyes.
I'd still not like it, especially. But I wouldn't regard it as being deliberately intended to be a festival of crap any more.
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Post by formersamhmd on Oct 16, 2017 0:45:16 GMT
My problem with this show is that there never seems to be enough plot to fill up the episode. So far it's been 20 minutes of actual plot stretched out over the total runtime so it's loaded with unnecessary padding.
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Post by Jep Gambardella on Oct 16, 2017 15:19:39 GMT
The F word on Star Trek! How edgy! Oh, and a gay couple too!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 20:14:44 GMT
Choose Your Pain
It's getting serious now (you know it's getting serious because they're saying fuck a lot). I'm starting to love this show and I'm enjoying the slow build, ongoing arc style which was only ever previously seen on DS9 -- more of that is fine by me. Enjoyed the Lorca kidnap stuff and meeting Harry Mudd and even the scene where Saru asks the computer to list the most successful captains and we get Pike, April and Archer. I wish they'd get on with the section 31 connection though.
The final mirror scene was creepy. Not sure where they're going with that. One would assume the mirror universe (which would perhaps give weight to the theory Paislene mentioned about parallel universes).
Loved the line: there are more of us down here than there are of you up there. It suggests the utopia angle is indeed being questioned (good).
Also loved the way the writers open the episode with Burnham's dream then it turns out to be Stamets.
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Post by Jep Gambardella on Oct 17, 2017 13:33:53 GMT
Choose Your PainIt's getting serious now (you know it's getting serious because they're saying fuck a lot). I'm starting to love this show and I'm enjoying the slow build, ongoing arc style which was only ever previously seen on DS9 -- more of that is fine by me. Enjoyed the Lorca kidnap stuff and meeting Harry Mudd and even the scene where Saru asks the computer to list the most successful captains and we get Pike, April and Archer. I wish they'd get on with the section 31 connection though. Who's April?
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Post by formersamhmd on Oct 17, 2017 14:11:24 GMT
Choose Your PainIt's getting serious now (you know it's getting serious because they're saying fuck a lot). I'm starting to love this show and I'm enjoying the slow build, ongoing arc style which was only ever previously seen on DS9 -- more of that is fine by me. Enjoyed the Lorca kidnap stuff and meeting Harry Mudd and even the scene where Saru asks the computer to list the most successful captains and we get Pike, April and Archer. I wish they'd get on with the section 31 connection though. Who's April? Robert April, he was the Enterprise's very first Captain.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2017 14:28:06 GMT
Choose Your PainIt's getting serious now (you know it's getting serious because they're saying fuck a lot). I'm starting to love this show and I'm enjoying the slow build, ongoing arc style which was only ever previously seen on DS9 -- more of that is fine by me. Enjoyed the Lorca kidnap stuff and meeting Harry Mudd and even the scene where Saru asks the computer to list the most successful captains and we get Pike, April and Archer. I wish they'd get on with the section 31 connection though. Who's April? Robert AprilA captain who was previously just part of the animated series (therefore not considered canon by some). That now is apparently no longer the case.
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