|
Post by lenlenlen1 on Nov 15, 2017 0:27:32 GMT
I'll say this: I don't think its a problem of either movie universe. I think its a problem of the genre. Its inherent in the formula of these types of movies, Marvel OR DC, that enough time cannot be given to the villain by sheer virtue of the fact that its only 2 hours long, and that time has to be spent on the hero(s). Very few villains have been truly hashed out just right.
Personally I liked Gene Hackman's Luthor, and Jack Nicholson's Joker, and Kurt Russel's EGO, but the best has been Heath Ledgers Joker. Just the right usage of him throughout the movie. And I still think the bad guys from Die Hard and Total Recall are good templates.
Thanos has been teased throughout the MCU so we'll see what happens there.
Yeah, I can agree to that. Because the X-men films hasn't been too hot on the villain department either. I will say this, as great as Ledger's Joker was, that was only made possible by the movie not really concentrating on Bruce Wayne or Batman. Unless you consider Magneto a villain. And I think Dark Knight focused on Batman just fine. It was a nice balance IMO.
|
|
|
Post by scabab on Nov 15, 2017 0:41:31 GMT
He's just more memorable in comparison because at least stands out whereas the Marvel villains are entirely forgettable. We actually do see Zod prior to his planet exploding, we see him reacting to that and we saw how he was treated after that. Again if this was a Marvel movie none of that would have been shown at all. It would just been mentioned for about 30 seconds. Also him doing it just for his people would just be him doing it for power or something generic. You mentioned and he was disappointment to people. With him, he realised humans are actually evil so I'm gonna kill all the humans. That was it, his very straight forward and generic motivation. Like I said with these MCU villains it usually comes down to no way, revenge or just wanting to kill or overthrow mankind. Also didn't help that he kept making jokes all the time which ruined him from how he was portrayed in the trailer.
Ok, we're talking about whether he's better, not whether he's more memorable. Also I've tried saying that he's not all that memorable, at least not to a degree that it matters. He's not some classic comic movie villain.
And again, I'm not seeing how MCU villains are less memorable, or how their motivations are any less detailed. I enjoy all the MCU villains, and none of them have cringe worthy dialogue, so I consider them better.
What villain was ruined? If you're talking about Ultron I disagree. I mean if that portrayal was less than acceptable to you, I just feel bad that you're not enjoying it as much as I am, because I loved it.
Well Zod is better and that's why he is more memorable naturally. Of course he's no Terminator or Darth Vader but he stands about more than the average MCU villain. He also had more of a impact to the overall DCEU story. His actions continued over in a significant way to the next movie. Whereas someone like Whiplash was completely forgotten about after Iron Man 2. Ultron was alright but like most people, he was portrayed a certain way in the trailer that made him seem one way, a very interesting and unique way and then the reality was completely different. He wasn't as intimidating as he appeared and he just kept making silly jokes, which he didn't really do in the comics but it's one of those things Wherein likes to add That was what disappointed people about the movie in general that it had a darker look to it and it really wasn't unfortunately.
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 15, 2017 0:57:45 GMT
Well Zod is better and that's why he is more memorable naturally. Of course he's no Terminator or Darth Vader but he stands about more than the average MCU villain. He also had more of a impact to the overall DCEU story. His actions continued over in a significant way to the next movie. Whereas someone like Whiplash was completely forgotten about after Iron Man 2. Ultron was alright but like most people, he was portrayed a certain way in the trailer that made him seem one way, a very interesting and unique way and then the reality was completely different. He wasn't as intimidating as he appeared and he just kept making silly jokes, which he didn't really do in the comics but it's one of those things Wherein likes to add That was what disappointed people about the movie in general that it had a darker look to it and it really wasn't unfortunately. If he's more memorable at all, and I don't think he is, it's not because he's better. After all we're talking about a film that didn't make 700 mil. I'm not sure why you're arguing that it's particularly memorable.
Ultron was an awesome movie. Not sure why anybody was disappointed. It's just really a spoiled point of view to be disappointed by something that good. I'm glad we have the opportunity to have films this good myself. We could be back in the days where the Batman films got worse and worse and worse or Spiderman 3. But we aren't. Stop being disappointed.
|
|
|
Post by scabab on Nov 15, 2017 1:09:06 GMT
If he's more memorable at all, and I don't think he is, it's not because he's better. After all we're talking about a film that didn't make 700 mil. I'm not sure why you're arguing that it's particularly memorable.Ultron was an awesome movie. Not sure why anybody was disappointed. It's just really a spoiled point of view to be disappointed by something that good. I'm glad we have the opportunity to have films this good myself. We could be back in the days where the Batman films got worse and worse and worse or Spiderman 3. But we aren't. Stop being disappointed. The amount of money means next to nothing. Thor didn't even make $450 million but Loki is the most memorable Marvel villain out of them all. As I said the Age of Ultron trailer was presented in one way. People were interestedin a darker Avengers movie following the previous one, with a much more intimidating antagonist. Then when the movie came out it's tone was pretty much the same as the original which people felt was misleading and disappointing. I really liked the movie and I didn't mind that it wasn't a dark movie but there was a good chance there for Ultron to be an entirely different villain from all other MCU villains up to that point. A villain that was terrifying and threatening and seemingly unstoppable but he wasn't, he just kept making jokes. Now we've got that chance a second time with Thanks and I really hope they don't make the same mistake again.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Nov 15, 2017 1:24:03 GMT
Zod was a great classical villain in motivation and reflection of the heroes dark side Nah, his whole "I am programmed to be this way" thing was a cop-out. Lazy. MEant he had no responsibility or agency. And his master plan was ill-thought out. Plot device. Mainly so Diana could go from a naive woman-child to a slightly less naive woman-child. Fixed.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Nov 15, 2017 1:29:39 GMT
In comparison the MCU villains are just one dimensional. Iron Monger, Loki, Kaecilius, Mordo, Red Skull, Nebula, Ego, Vulture, Hela, etc. Screaming a lot makes you memorable? "Is that all you've got?" "No matter what lies Erskine told you, you see, I was his greatest success!", "Arrogance may not be a uniquely American trait, but I must say, you do it better than anyone. But there are limits to what even you can do, Captain, or did Erskine tell you otherwise?", "You could have the power of the gods! Yet you wear a flag on your chest and think you fight a battle of nations! I have seen the future, Captain! There are no flags!", "You are deluded, Captain. You pretend to be a simple soldier, but in reality you are just afraid to admit that we have left humanity behind. Unlike you, I embrace it proudly. Without fear!", "A reward? Call it what it is... exile! I no longer reflect his vision of Aryan perfection!" So style without substance.
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 15, 2017 1:39:25 GMT
If he's more memorable at all, and I don't think he is, it's not because he's better. After all we're talking about a film that didn't make 700 mil. I'm not sure why you're arguing that it's particularly memorable.Ultron was an awesome movie. Not sure why anybody was disappointed. It's just really a spoiled point of view to be disappointed by something that good. I'm glad we have the opportunity to have films this good myself. We could be back in the days where the Batman films got worse and worse and worse or Spiderman 3. But we aren't. Stop being disappointed. The amount of money means next to nothing. Thor didn't even make $450 million but Loki is the most memorable Marvel villain out of them all. As I said the Age of Ultron trailer was presented in one way. People were interestedin a darker Avengers movie following the previous one, with a much more intimidating antagonist. Then when the movie came out it's tone was pretty much the same as the original which people felt was misleading and disappointing. I really liked the movie and I didn't mind that it wasn't a dark movie but there was a good chance there for Ultron to be an entirely different villain from all other MCU villains up to that point. A villain that was terrifying and threatening and seemingly unstoppable but he wasn't, he just kept making jokes. Now we've got that chance a second time with Thanks and I really hope they don't make the same mistake again. Ok so anyway, Zod isn't one of the better villains. Also Ultron wasn't a mistake. But I totally agree the money doesn't matter, but then neither do the youtube watches.
|
|
|
Post by scabab on Nov 15, 2017 1:39:55 GMT
Iron Monger, Loki, Kaecilius, Mordo, Red Skull, Nebula, Ego, Vulture, Hela, etc. Loki and Vulture aren't one dimensional and that's why they're considered good villains. Mordo isn't a villain yet. Nebula is also not one dimensional which is true but she's just a side villain. I have no idea where those lines comes from. In fact if it wasn't for this thread I wouldn't even know they were from Marvel movies. I can say they're from Captain America just for obvious reasons and that's about it. None of them are memorable. "I will find you" is a memorable line for either good or bad reasons, as I said there's countless videos just for that one line of dialogue. It had substance when Superman killed Zod at the end so he didn't kill the family. It's a fight scene in a superhero blockbuster movie, you want it to be an action packed spectacle.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Nov 15, 2017 1:44:52 GMT
Mordo isn't a villain yet. We saw his first villainous act in the post-credit scene for Dr Strange, are you saying he's 1-Dimensional after what we saw of him in the movie? Still counts. I mean, they made a side villain 3-Dimensional. Incredible Hulk and First Avenger. I remembered them. Although that movie had plenty of memorable stuff like Erskine pointing out how no one seems to care about how the Germans were the first people conquered by the Nazis. ...It's just one guy screaming a very basic thing. If Shannon hasn't kept repeating it and howling it, would anyone care? I never had a problem with that, because I know Reeves Superman killed Zod in Superman 2 and no one cared (because the movie was very campy and treated it like a silly thing instead of stone serious). But I think they should've done something cooler, like Clark slamming his hands over Zod's eyes to block the beam. This causes a backfire that fires Zod's brain, like what he did to Darkseid in the Animated series. Would've looked cooler. When it comes to big showdowns, I liked really creative stuff like "Dormammu, I've come to bargain".
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 15, 2017 2:01:04 GMT
Oh c'mon Scabab. Zod being not-quite-evil and relatable is a trait shared by at least half of MCU villains. Pierce, Yellow Jacket, Hela, Killian, Iron Monger, Ultron, Zemo.... none of them started off as bad people that wanted to do bad stuff simply because they were evil. Heck, "who only did evil things for the sake of his own kind" could be applied to Red Skull and Malekith as well. This doesn't make Zod unique or better than MCU villains. Again, I'm not saying Zod is a bad villain, and you're completely in your rights to like him. But to say that he objectively did anything better than majority of MCU villains is just not true. How were they relatable? Hela killed people because she just plain liked it and wanted to conquer other realms. Yellow Jacket was selling dangerous weapons to get rich. Iron Monger tried to kill his "friend" just so he could become CEO of a company or to get richer. Killian killed innocent people in experiments and then pretended they were terrorist attacks all again just to get rich. And so on. They were all scumbags. Zod was just trying to save his own world and race at the cost of another but we would do the same. If Earth and it's kind were in serious danger, then we'd take out some other world if it meant our survival. I'd kill someone if I knew that person would kill my mother if I didn't. Many would. Zod wasn't out for money or power or revenge, he just wanted his kind to live. It's easy to make them look like scumbags by simply choosing your words carefully. For example, I can say that Zod was a complete scumbag because he could have easily just terraformed Mars and avoided all the hostilities. But he decided to go on a genocidal powertrip. Just his "I will find him" line already tells you that he had a screw loose somewhere. Hela came from a warrior race that was intent on expanding their realm. She's really not that much different from Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan. She didn't randomly kill Asgardians, she wanted their fealty and only killed them when they disobeyed. Ironmonger and Yellow Jacket weren't evil, they were just corrupt. Willing to sell in the black market and kill to get more money and power. They're relateable not because people can see themselves in their motives, but because there are real people out there (cough*politicians*cough) who fit this bill. I also noticed how you skipped over Pierce or Zemo or Ultron. Their reasons are even more plausible than Zod.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Nov 15, 2017 2:04:35 GMT
Ironmonger and Yellow Jacket weren't evil, they were just corrupt. Willing to sell in the black market and kill to get more money and power Iron Monger's motive wasn't even something that self-serving. There was a deleted scene where he tells the assembled scientists that while he appreciates all their hard work they need to be better at reverse-engineering Tony's Reactor, since tech like that comes along once a generation and it's up to them to make sure that it can be used for all society. So he saw himself as a man whose duty was to make sure that the Arc Reactor tech be made available for all...while still profiting from it immensely on his own. Everybody wins, just him more than others.
|
|
|
Post by scabab on Nov 15, 2017 2:13:08 GMT
formersamhmd1. By the end of the movie he wouldn't be one dimensional but he wasn't the movies villain unfortunately. Kaecilius was and he was one dimensional. 2. That's true and Ego also wasn't one dimensional. 3. Well it might be basic and it may even be over acted a bit but you certainly remember it. 4. They don't all have to have big fights. They aren't all that type but some require it because it's satisfying and entertaining. They've had some good ones like Hulk vs Abomination, Iron Man vs Hulk, Thor vs Hulk, Thor vs Hela, Captain America vs Winter Soldier, Captain America and Iron Man vs Iron Man. But then some real lousy ones like Thor vs Loki, Captain America vs Red Skull, Iron Man vs Whiplash weren't so great. The actual final fight with Ultron wasn't so great as well.
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Nov 15, 2017 2:26:40 GMT
Kaecilius was and he was one dimensional. How? He was an extremist who wanted to create a world where people wouldn't have to suffer loss due to things like the passage of time. Just because they didn't show us fluffy flashbacks of him losing his family and searching for ways of bringing them back doesn't take away from then. Yeah, but remembering something because it got screamed a lot doesn't make it good. Look at Nuclear Man's "I WILL HURT PEOPLE!" Their fight at the end of the first Thor film? I thought Loki using those illusions was cool, as was Thor using his brain and using the hammer to incapacitate Loki thanks to Odin's enchantment. Hey, the Skull was WINNING that fight. He only lost because he decided to grab the Tesseract with his hands.
|
|