|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 14, 2017 17:40:52 GMT
Time and again you'll hear people mention MCU's villain problem. Yet while everyone loves to harp on MCU's villains, people seem to neglect to point out DCCU's villain problem, which is actually worse than MCU's villain problem and has been going on for longer. So I thought it's high time we talked about it.
Outside the TDK trilogy, when was the last time DC movies had a good, memorable villain? Zod was somewhat decent, in the same way that Iron Monger or Yellow Jacket were kinda decent. But they're the kind of villains that easily fade away from the average audience's memory easily. Ozymandias was good and I loved him, but you have to admit that the general audience has no idea of who he is. Other than that, starting from 2000 and above you have:
Ares
Luddendorf
Dr. Poison
Enchantress
Eisenberg Lex
Doomsday
Parallax
Kevin Spacey Lex
Quentin Turnbull (Jonah Hex)
Whoever that villain was in Catwoman
... if we go back further we'll run into villains like Mr. Freeze and Riddler.
Anyway, point is that all these villains range from meh to cringeworthy. The best you can say about some of them is they might have been met with mixed reactions. Mostly cringeworthy though. And that's the main difference between MCU and DCCU villains. The most you can say about even the worst MCU villains (Malekith, Whiplash) is that they're bland and boring. And while there are some DCCU villains that fit that bill, a lot of them can actually be called cringeworhty and outright ridiculous.
So yeah, just thought I'd point that out.
|
|
|
|
Post by DSDSquared on Nov 14, 2017 17:43:31 GMT
I liked the General and Dr. Poison in Wonder Woman, but I see your point. I do not feel that the DCEU has had one very good villain yet.
|
|
|
|
Post by taylorfirst1 on Nov 14, 2017 17:45:18 GMT
I don't think either the MCU or the DCEU have a villain problem.
|
|
|
|
Post by Hauntedknight87 on Nov 14, 2017 18:47:07 GMT
I thought Zod was a good villian, I didn't like Jessie's performance as Lex so I couldn't get into the character, Doomsday is....well Doomsday, Enchantress and Incubus were pretty much forgettable, Let joker wasn't all that great, i don't remember the German officer much, Dr. Poison was interesting but not given a lot of screen time and Ares was just a bland CBM villian.
So yeah both MCU and DCEU have some villian issues.
|
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 14, 2017 18:47:18 GMT
Time and again you'll hear people mention MCU's villain problem. Yet while everyone loves to harp on MCU's villains, people seem to neglect to point out DCCU's villain problem, which is actually worse than MCU's villain problem and has been going on for longer. So I thought it's high time we talked about it. Outside the TDK trilogy, when was the last time DC movies had a good, memorable villain? Zod was somewhat decent, in the same way that Iron Monger or Yellow Jacket were kinda decent. But they're the kind of villains that easily fade away from the average audience's memory easily. Ozymandias was good and I loved him, but you have to admit that the general audience has no idea of who he is. Other than that, starting from 2000 and above you have: Ares Luddendorf Dr. Poison Enchantress Eisenberg Lex Doomsday Parallax Kevin Spacey Lex Quentin Turnbull (Jonah Hex) Whoever that villain was in Catwoman ... if we go back further we'll run into villains like Mr. Freeze and Riddler. Anyway, point is that all these villains range from meh to cringeworthy. The best you can say about some of them is they might have been met with mixed reactions. Mostly cringeworthy though. And that's the main difference between MCU and DCCU villains. The most you can say about even the worst MCU villains (Malekith, Whiplash) is that they're bland and boring. And while there are some DCCU villains that fit that bill, a lot of them can actually be called cringeworhty and outright ridiculous. So yeah, just thought I'd point that out. Well this is undeniable really. DC has actually terrible villains like Lex, dancing Enchantress, and Cavetroll Doomsday, while the worst that can be said about only a handful of MCU villains is that they were somewhat 1 dimensional, which by itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. |
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 14, 2017 18:49:52 GMT
I thought Zod was a good villian, I didn't like Jessie's performance as Lex so I couldn't get into the character, Doomsday is....well Doomsday, Enchantress and Incubus were pretty much forgettable, Let joker wasn't all that great, i don't remember the German officer much, Dr. Poison was interesting but not given a lot of screen time and Ares was just a bland CBM villian. So yeah both MCU and DCEU have some villian issues. I found Zod to have a lot of bad dialogue just was annoyed anytime he was on screen.
The MCU doesn't really have villain issues, as they've made the villains they wanted to make. Being one dimensional isn't necessarily a bad thing if that was the point. But DC has actually had bad performances and bad crafting of villains, like Lex and Enchantress.
|
|
|
|
Post by scabab on Nov 14, 2017 18:53:27 GMT
The DCEU had Zod who was a better villain than the majority of the MCU's.
Lex Luthor was a terrible, a worse villain than the majority of the MCU's.
Doomsday....well he was just as he was portrayed in the comics really. He was never my house of a character at all, he's just a powerful beast like the Fenris wolf in Thor.
Enchantress was also not a great villain. Probably on par with the low end of the MCU villains. Not Malekith terrible though.
Ares, I didn't really care for but it wasn't supposed to be the same kind of villain really because he was part of a twist.
Steppenwolf probably won't be all that great either.
|
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 14, 2017 19:05:49 GMT
The DCEU had Zod who was a better villain than the majority of the MCU's. Lex Luthor was a terrible, a worse villain than the majority of the MCU's. Doomsday....well he was just as he was portrayed in the comics really. He was never my house of a character at all, he's just a powerful beast like the Fenris wolf in Thor. Enchantress was also not a great villain. Probably on par with the low end of the MCU villains. Not Malekith terrible though. Ares, I didn't really care for but it wasn't supposed to be the same kind of villain really because he was part of a twist. Steppenwolf probably won't be all that great either. I actually would argue that I don't find Zod to be better than any MCU villain. Enchantress was definitely worse than any of them including Malekith who I still don't understand why people have such an issue with. I mean the guy was tough, well acted, and felt that the universe as we know it was an invasive species, which is kind of a really deep cool thought. |
|
|
|
Post by formersamhmd on Nov 14, 2017 19:13:23 GMT
The DCEU had Zod who was a better villain than the majority of the MCU's. Was he really though? I mean he just yelled a lot, wasn't terribly deep as "programming" was his excuse for his actions and kind of moronic when you consider there was little to no reason he couldn't go and terraform any other world once he had the Codex. |
|
|
|
Post by scabab on Nov 14, 2017 19:24:34 GMT
The DCEU had Zod who was a better villain than the majority of the MCU's. Was he really though? I mean he just yelled a lot, wasn't terribly deep as "programming" was his excuse for his actions and kind of moronic when you consider there was little to no reason he couldn't go and terraform any other world once he had the Codex. Oh yeah easily. Outside of Loki and Winter Solider he's better than them all. He actually had something of substance to work with. He had some character development to him. He was interesting and welll acted. He actually has a line of dialogue that people remember and was involved in a good action sequence. Not like most of the MCU villains to date who are mostly forgettable. |
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 14, 2017 19:28:43 GMT
Was he really though? I mean he just yelled a lot, wasn't terribly deep as "programming" was his excuse for his actions and kind of moronic when you consider there was little to no reason he couldn't go and terraform any other world once he had the Codex. Oh yeah easily. Outside of Loki and Winter Solider he's better than them all. He actually had something of substance to work with. He had some character development to him. He was interesting and welll acted. He actually has a line of dialogue that people remember and was involved in a good action sequence. Not like most of the MCU villains to date who are mostly forgettable. I'd have to disagree. When you ask the general populace if they know who Zod is, most of them will just give you a blank stare. He's not exactly a bad villain, just unmemorable. And he isn't exactly good either, I mean, certainly no better acted and portrayed than Zemo or Pierce, who are both also decent villains but ultimately forgettable to the general populace. As for Enchantress, she literally didn't do anything that made her more interesting than Malekith. Well, other than that dancing bit, which just made her the butt of a whole lot of jokes. |
|
|
|
Post by scabab on Nov 14, 2017 19:43:30 GMT
Oh yeah easily. Outside of Loki and Winter Solider he's better than them all. He actually had something of substance to work with. He had some character development to him. He was interesting and welll acted. He actually has a line of dialogue that people remember and was involved in a good action sequence. Not like most of the MCU villains to date who are mostly forgettable. I'd have to disagree. When you ask the general populace if they know who Zod is, most of them will just give you a blank stare. He's not exactly a bad villain, just unmemorable. And he isn't exactly good either, I mean, certainly no better acted and portrayed than Zemo or Pierce, who are both also decent villains but ultimately forgettable to the general populace. As for Enchantress, she literally didn't do anything that made her more interesting than Malekith. Well, other than that dancing bit, which just made her the butt of a whole lot of jokes. Well he's not exactly the Joker but he'd be more memorable amongst people than most MCU villains as they have very little impact in their movies. Zemo or Pierce played their parts well but they weren't super villains so weren't really too involved with much of the action and Pierce was overshadowed by the more popular Winter Solider from the same movie and Zemo was overshadowed by all the additional heroes in the same movie. The MCU villains are one dimensional, uninteresting and have nothing that stands out in any way. At least Zod has something. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 19:45:26 GMT
Zod was a great villain.
|
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 14, 2017 19:49:29 GMT
Was he really though? I mean he just yelled a lot, wasn't terribly deep as "programming" was his excuse for his actions and kind of moronic when you consider there was little to no reason he couldn't go and terraform any other world once he had the Codex. Oh yeah easily. Outside of Loki and Winter Solider he's better than them all. He actually had something of substance to work with. He had some character development to him. He was interesting and welll acted. He actually has a line of dialogue that people remember and was involved in a good action sequence. Not like most of the MCU villains to date who are mostly forgettable. Oh I completely disagree with this. I don't think he had any more substance and I think the performance wasn't nearly as good. As far as his dialogue goes I thought some of it was almost embarrassing. I find all of the MCU villains much more watchable, and I don't think Zod is any more memorable at the least. I honestly don't know why in some of your posts you are saying zod was deeper than MCU villains. Based on what? |
|
|
|
Post by Hauntedknight87 on Nov 14, 2017 19:54:55 GMT
I thought Zod was a good villian, I didn't like Jessie's performance as Lex so I couldn't get into the character, Doomsday is....well Doomsday, Enchantress and Incubus were pretty much forgettable, Let joker wasn't all that great, i don't remember the German officer much, Dr. Poison was interesting but not given a lot of screen time and Ares was just a bland CBM villian. So yeah both MCU and DCEU have some villian issues. I found Zod to have a lot of bad dialogue just was annoyed anytime he was on screen.
The MCU doesn't really have villain issues, as they've made the villains they wanted to make. Being one dimensional isn't necessarily a bad thing if that was the point. But DC has actually had bad performances and bad crafting of villains, like Lex and Enchantress.
I disagree. I wish Marvel would flesh out their villians more. |
|
|
|
Post by Skaathar on Nov 14, 2017 19:58:09 GMT
I'd have to disagree. When you ask the general populace if they know who Zod is, most of them will just give you a blank stare. He's not exactly a bad villain, just unmemorable. And he isn't exactly good either, I mean, certainly no better acted and portrayed than Zemo or Pierce, who are both also decent villains but ultimately forgettable to the general populace. As for Enchantress, she literally didn't do anything that made her more interesting than Malekith. Well, other than that dancing bit, which just made her the butt of a whole lot of jokes. Well he's not exactly the Joker but he'd be more memorable amongst people than most MCU villains as they have very little impact in their movies. Zemo or Pierce played their parts well but they weren't super villains so weren't really too involved with much of the action and Pierce was overshadowed by the more popular Winter Solider from the same movie and Zemo was overshadowed by all the additional heroes in the same movie. The MCU villains are one dimensional, uninteresting and have nothing that stands out in any way. At least Zod has something. I'm not arguing this from my opinion's perspective, just basing on general populace. I mean, go ahead and ask random people if they know who Zod is. Most won't know who the hell you're talking about. Now you can like him personally, and I won't disagree with that. I'm just saying that as far as the general populace is concerned, Zod is one of those villains that will fade from memory. I'm not saying MCU villains are better, just that (most) of them are no worse than Zod. |
|
|
|
Post by ArArArchStanton on Nov 14, 2017 19:59:04 GMT
I found Zod to have a lot of bad dialogue just was annoyed anytime he was on screen.
The MCU doesn't really have villain issues, as they've made the villains they wanted to make. Being one dimensional isn't necessarily a bad thing if that was the point. But DC has actually had bad performances and bad crafting of villains, like Lex and Enchantress.
I disagree. I wish Marvel would flesh out their villians more. Some of them are. They don't all have to be some deeply investigated character. It's fine that some are single minded and after one purpose only. It's fine that some are just tough brutes. And then we have great characters like Alexander Pierce who often doesn't get mentioned, thank you Robert Redford. And then some are completely underappreciated like Whiplash who had a fantastic backstory, was smart enough to challenge Tony and manipulate Hammer, and grew up with a brutish demeanor that makes him quite unique. That guy was a badass actor and I see people write him off. It's the kind of thing that makes me think people just want to complain. The MCU villains are quite well realized in most cases and in the times they're more simple they're supposed to be. I love all of them. |
|
|
|
Post by Tristan's Journal on Nov 14, 2017 20:01:56 GMT
Zod was a great classical villain in motivation and reflection of the heroes dark side, I say the best since Nolan.
Ares was a good mystery villain concept, one of the most clever and best written ones I have seen in CBMs.
SS was full of villains. Lex was a solid villain, like Loki in the first Thor a whiny brat but who had great, murderous moments such as when he blew up the Capitol hearing. SS was full of villains.
|
|
|
|
Post by scabab on Nov 14, 2017 20:09:44 GMT
Oh I completely disagree with this. I don't think he had any more substance and I think the performance wasn't nearly as good. As far as his dialogue goes I thought some of it was almost embarrassing. I find all of the MCU villains much more watchable, and I don't think Zod is any more memorable at the least. I honestly don't know why in some of your posts you are saying zod was deeper than MCU villains. Based on what? Because Zod wasn't one dimensional. He was originally a good person who only did evil things for the sake of his own kind. He brought all that destruction to Earth only so that the last of his kind could survive. Which is understandable and somewhat relatable. A lot of people would do evil things for the sake of their family as well. In comparison the MCU villains are just one dimensional. They're mainly all just openly evil and do evil things for generic reasons, like to gain power, get revenge or take over or destroy humanity. Zoe's speech stood out and people remember that. His "I will find him!" line people remember too. What dialogue do people ever remember of Malekith? Red skull? Abomination? Yellow Jacket? Nothing. The Superman vs Zod fight was a good spectacle, a memorable and large scale action scene. Then you've got the MCU villains who don't have much in the way of memorable action scenes at all, again like Red Skull who had that pitiful final battle with Captain America. |
|
|
|
Post by miike80 on Nov 14, 2017 20:12:33 GMT
I disagree. I wish Marvel would flesh out their villians more. Some of them are. They don't all have to be some deeply investigated character. It's fine that some are single minded and after one purpose only. It's fine that some are just tough brutes. And then we have great characters like Alexander Pierce who often doesn't get mentioned, thank you Robert Redford. And then some are completely underappreciated like Whiplash who had a fantastic backstory, was smart enough to challenge Tony and manipulate Hammer, and grew up with a brutish demeanor that makes him quite unique. That guy was a badass actor and I see people write him off. It's the kind of thing that makes me think people just want to complain. The MCU villains are quite well realized in most cases and in the times they're more simple they're supposed to be. I love all of them. Come on man, not even Mickey Rourke liked Whiplash, or at least the version that actually made the final cut link |
|
