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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 5, 2017 18:21:00 GMT
The problem with what you just said is atheism doesn't value god as false. It values it as unknown.
Here I'll try to explain with flipping a coin. Heads is god, tails is no god. I just flipped it. Do you believe it's heads? No, you have no evidence. Do you believe it's tails? No, you have no evidence. It's an unknown. Congratulations, you're an atheist in regards to the result of the coin flip, because you do not believe it was heads.
Where did I say atheism doesn't value god as false? It doesn't surprise me that you'd argue against rules of logic. Because your assigned truth values are incorrect
True - equals theism, yes False - Equals atheism, yes Unknown - Also equals atheism, which is where you are confused, but I'll try to explain. Unknown means you don't accept it as true, which means you don't believe it, which makes you an atheist.
There are two questions
Do you believe in a god?
Yes - theist No - atheist
There is no middle ground here. It's a yes or no question.
Do you have knowledge of a god.
Yes - Gnostic theist No - Agnostic
These are two separate questions, and you are moving agnostic into the middle of a yes or no question about belief, when agnostic is a term regarding knowledge. Both questions are yes or no. There is no middle ground anywhere.
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skyhawk0
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Post by skyhawk0 on Mar 5, 2017 18:28:44 GMT
Couldn't address what I actually wrote? Wow, that must be a blow to your self-esteem. I didn't say anything about anything being always about atheists. I addressed the meaning of words you didn't understand. I really have time for people with excess hubris Clearly. Else you couldn't be around yourself. Now, if you've finished diverting, do you need me to educate you further? I can quote things that any grown-up could simply look up for themselves if they had an internet connection. Or you could simply drop the hubris and stop avoiding the point you know you've already lost. And to be clear, a loss for you is not a win for me. It's simply wasted time and, unlike you, I don't have the time to waste on your hubris.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 18:29:58 GMT
I really have time for people with excess hubris Clearly. Else you couldn't be around yourself. Now, if you've finished diverting, do you need me to educate you further? I can quote things that any grown-up could simply look up for themselves if they had an internet connection. Or you could simply drop the hubris and stop avoiding the point you know you've already lost. And to be clear, a loss for you is not a win for me. It's simply wasted time and, unlike you, I don't have the time to waste on your hubris. See. I don't have time for this. Good day.
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skyhawk0
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Post by skyhawk0 on Mar 5, 2017 19:21:32 GMT
Clearly. Else you couldn't be around yourself. Now, if you've finished diverting, do you need me to educate you further? I can quote things that any grown-up could simply look up for themselves if they had an internet connection. Or you could simply drop the hubris and stop avoiding the point you know you've already lost. And to be clear, a loss for you is not a win for me. It's simply wasted time and, unlike you, I don't have the time to waste on your hubris. See. I don't have time for this. Good day. You misspelled 'balls'. Your surrender is accepted. Thanks for playing. Your home game will be sent to you shortly.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 19:24:09 GMT
See. I don't have time for this. Good day. You misspelled 'balls'. Seriously stop being an a-hole. People can discuss things without such language and behavior. I have a lot of balls. I choose not to waste my *(&T%&^( on (*&*((*^Y(*Y
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fatpaul
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Post by fatpaul on Mar 5, 2017 19:34:26 GMT
Where did I say atheism doesn't value god as false? It doesn't surprise me that you'd argue against rules of logic. Because your assigned truth values are incorrect
True - equals theism, yes False - Equals atheism, yes Unknown - Also equals atheism, which is where you are confused, but I'll try to explain. Unknown means you don't accept it as true, which means you don't believe it, which makes you an atheist. Unknown also means you don't accept it as false either, you are going to have to explain why to justify your view. Okay say if there is no third value and the law of the excluded middle applies: To hold is to keep in thought. A proposition is that held true or false. Belief is holding a proposition true. No belief is holding a proposition false. Agnosticism holds a proposition as neither true nor false, i.e. not holding a proposition. So an agnostic atheist is holding and not holding the proposition that deity exists, which is incoherent. Knowledge may be called justified true belief - propositions held true that are justified, therefore true by matter or virtue of fact. Faith may be called unjustified belief - propositions held true but unjustified by matter or virtue of fact. Agnosticism is a not opposite to knowledge, it is epistemically neutral, and truth propositionally, it is the infinite middle values between true and false.
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Post by skyhawk0 on Mar 5, 2017 19:45:01 GMT
You misspelled 'balls'. Seriously stop being an a-hole. People can discuss things without such language and behavior. I have a lot of balls. I choose not to waste my *(&T%&^( on (*&*((*^Y(*Y Seriously, take your own advice. Being pissy because you know you were wrong but aren't man enough to simply say so isn't on me. You don't have balls. Else you wouldn't have had to divert from the meaning of 'atheist' once you realized you were wrong. You don't like being called on not having balls, grow some. And you just showed it wasn't time you didn't have. Try being less transparent in future.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 19:52:49 GMT
Seriously stop being an a-hole. People can discuss things without such language and behavior. I have a lot of balls. I choose not to waste my *(&T%&^( on (*&*((*^Y(*Y Seriously, take your own advice. Being pissy because you know you were wrong but aren't man enough to simply say so isn't on me. You don't have balls. Else you wouldn't have had to divert from the meaning of 'atheist' once you realized you were wrong. You don't like being called on not having balls, grow some. And you just showed it wasn't time you didn't have. Try being less transparent in future.
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Post by skyhawk0 on Mar 5, 2017 21:49:07 GMT
Seriously, take your own advice. Being pissy because you know you were wrong but aren't man enough to simply say so isn't on me.
You don't have balls. Else you wouldn't have had to divert from the meaning of 'atheist' once you realized you were wrong. You don't like being called on not having balls, grow some.
And you just showed it wasn't time you didn't have. Try being less transparent in future.
Hell, if you go to pieces like this because you said something stupid on a messageboard, what would you do in person? Roll around on the ground and start speaking in tongues?
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 5, 2017 23:35:13 GMT
Unknown also means you don't accept it as false either, you are going to have to explain why to justify your view.Okay say if there is no third value and the law of the excluded middle applies: To hold is to keep in thought. A proposition is that held true or false. Belief is holding a proposition true. No belief is holding a proposition false. Agnosticism holds a proposition as neither true nor false, i.e. not holding a proposition. So an agnostic atheist is holding and not holding the proposition that deity exists, which is incoherent. Knowledge may be called justified true belief - propositions held true that are justified, therefore true by matter or virtue of fact. Faith may be called unjustified belief - propositions held true but unjustified by matter or virtue of fact. Agnosticism is a not opposite to knowledge, it is epistemically neutral, and truth propositionally, it is the infinite middle values between true and false. You're missing all of this.
Unknown means you don't believe it to be true, which makes you an atheist. Your position on whether it is false or not, does not matter.
No belief is not holding something to be false. You're just wrong. I don't believe I have an odd number of cells in my body. That does not mean I believe I have an even number. You're simply wrong.
Atheism can also be not holding a position as true or false. You're misunderstanding agnosticism completely.
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fatpaul
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Post by fatpaul on Mar 6, 2017 1:33:19 GMT
Unknown means you don't believe it to be true, which makes you an atheist. Your position on whether it is false or not, does not matter. I repeat, unknown means you don't believe it false either. You are going to have to justify why this is not so. When Einstein died, he supposedly uttered something in German as his dying words but unfortunately, only a New Jersey nurse (iirc) was in attendance who knew no German. It is a given, whether the story is true or not, that Einstein did have last words before he died, as with all language speakers who have died, but we will never know what they were. So, if I was to say that Einstein's last words were, 'I just figured it all out, it's…', the truth value would have to be, neither true nor false but, unknown. Holding a proposition unknown may be defined as agnosticism; we are agnostic about Einstein's last words. P = total number of cells in your body is an odd number. You hold P as false, therefore you do not believe P. If you don't believe P, then you must, by default, hold the proposition that the total number of cells in your body is an even number, as true, i.e. don't believe P. You have just illustrated why no belief is holding something to be false. When it comes down to the proposition of deity existence then atheism is holding it false, theism is holding it true. Agnosticism is holding a proposition neither true nor false, i.e. unknown, somewhere between the true and false. Anything else said is just semantical baggage.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 6, 2017 1:44:43 GMT
When it comes down to the proposition of deity existence then atheism is holding it false, theism is holding it true. No, atheism does not hold it false. It is simply saying, you don't accept it as true.
To help you understand, do you believe there is an odd number of cells in your body? No, because you don't have the data. Does that mean you believe there is an even number? Of course not. You don't have a belief in the number of cells in your body. That makes you an atheist in regards to believing you have an odd number of cells. Notice, you don't believe it is true, or false, the position you currently think is agnosticism.
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Post by fatpaul on Mar 6, 2017 2:54:49 GMT
When it comes down to the proposition of deity existence then atheism is holding it false, theism is holding it true. No, atheism does not hold it false. It is simply saying, you don't accept it as true.
If you don't hold it false and you don't accept it as true, then you accept it as unknown, which is agnosticism, not atheism. Thanks. I am agnostic about the total number of cells in my body, therefore agnostic about whether the total is odd or even. You have given a textbook case for agnosticism and have yet to justify why unknown means false. Because of the fact that I have no data, I cannot say if having an even total is true or false. Likewise, I cannot say if having an odd total is true or false. The best I can say it is unknown, not false, not true, unknown.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 6, 2017 3:16:03 GMT
Reread the cell analogy I just gave you.
I'm an agnostic and an atheist. For the last time, you either believe a god is real or you don't. Saying you don't know, is also not believing.
Agnosticism means you don't have knowledge, not that you don't believe.
I've explained this to you numerous times. I guarantee you, you are wrong. I hope you learn instead. Bye.
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Post by thorshairspray on Mar 6, 2017 3:37:10 GMT
well the middle ground is, "i dont have enough information yet, need to do more reading, so i havent decided what i believe" Its actually not. If you haven't decided whether you believe in god, then you don't believe in god. There is literally no middle ground believing and not believing.
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fatpaul
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Post by fatpaul on Mar 6, 2017 3:38:28 GMT
Reread the cell analogy I just gave you.
I'm an agnostic and an atheist. For the last time, you either believe a god is real or you don't. You being an agnostic atheist has nothing to do with it. It is isn't believing either. Instead of analogies, tell me directly why unknown is equivalent to false. I've already explained why knowledge may be justified true belief. I said that agnosticism is holding a proposition as neither true nor false, holding it unknown. I may be wrong, but not because of something you have stated. Bye.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 6, 2017 3:58:47 GMT
It is isn't believing either. Instead of analogies, tell me directly why unknown is equivalent to false. I didn't say it was. You aren't listening.
Atheism = I don't believe in a god, which means I don't accept it as true. That does not mean I believe it is false.
And yet this is the same definition you are trying to apply to agnostic, which is why you are wrong.
Agnostic means you have no knowledge of a god. It's a completely different question.
I can't make it any more simple for you than that.
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fatpaul
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Post by fatpaul on Mar 6, 2017 4:33:01 GMT
It is isn't believing either. Instead of analogies, tell me directly why unknown is equivalent to false. I didn't say it was. You aren't listening.
Atheism = I don't believe in a god, which means I don't accept it as true. That does not mean I believe it is false. If someone said to you that God exists, do you believe this statement to be true or do you believe it to be false? Check your double negatives btw. You are being disingenuous now, this is not what I was saying, show me where I imply this. My position is: Atheism is holding the proposition that deity existence is false, and that theism holds that deity existence is true. Agnosticism is holding the proposition as neither true nor false, holding the proposition unknown. I stated it symbolically if you remember: proposition d = deity exists; T = true; U = unknown; F = false. Theist: d = T; agnostic: d = U; atheist: d = F. What does knowledge mean to you?
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Post by bonerxmas on Mar 6, 2017 4:41:28 GMT
If you haven't decided whether you believe in god, then you don't believe in god. that statement makes no sense, look at it, you are saying "if you have not decided between A and B, that means you have decided on A"
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 6, 2017 10:58:19 GMT
If someone said to you that God exists, do you believe this statement to be true or do you believe it to be false? Check your double negatives btw. I do not accept it to be true. Which is not the same as accepting it to be false.
When you realize that, you'll realize you've been wrong this entire time.
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