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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 16:53:42 GMT
This is an issue that has always intrigued me; how many people who identify as Christians (or Muslim, or any other type of theist), deep down, do not believe that God exists, but merely hope that he does.
There are many theists who are extremely touchy about their faith, to the point where even someone saying "I don't believe in God" is perceived as a threat vector (perhaps even triggering the fight-or-flight instinct). Could this be evidence that many theists are constantly trying to suppress doubts which have deeply taken root in their subconscious? And if so, do those theists more confident in their beliefs tend to be able to defend their religion whilst retaining greater equanimity?
Any theists here willing to admit that they merely hope, rather than fully believe, that God exists?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Mar 5, 2017 17:01:55 GMT
There's probably a lot given the activities of so many Christians.
I am not one of them. If I only had hope, I would be agnostic until the hope blossomed into something else or never came about.
I would become atheist the moment that made sense too.
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Post by Arlon10 on Mar 5, 2017 17:09:43 GMT
This is an issue that has always intrigued me; how many people who identify as Christians (or Muslim, or any other type of theist), deep down, do not believe that God exists, but merely hope that he does. There are many theists who are extremely touchy about their faith, to the point where even someone saying "I don't believe in God" is perceived as a threat vector (perhaps even triggering the fight-or-flight instinct). Could this be evidence that many theists are constantly trying to suppress doubts which have deeply taken root in their subconscious? And if so, do those theists more confident in their beliefs tend to be able to defend their religion whilst retaining greater equanimity? Any theists here willing to admit that they merely hope, rather than fully believe, that God exists? I suppose a lot does go on inside people we'll never know about it. People are individuals with individual experiences, complicated hopes and fears. I doubt it makes much difference how much of it is hope or belief. I think atheists are not admitting how much they hope there isn't a god, as he would undermine their understanding of order in the universe. All this is difficult to quantify though. Most "threats" are probably just blundering. I don't see much difference what you call them. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 17:12:41 GMT
This is an issue that has always intrigued me; how many people who identify as Christians (or Muslim, or any other type of theist), deep down, do not believe that God exists, but merely hope that he does. There are many theists who are extremely touchy about their faith, to the point where even someone saying "I don't believe in God" is perceived as a threat vector (perhaps even triggering the fight-or-flight instinct). Could this be evidence that many theists are constantly trying to suppress doubts which have deeply taken root in their subconscious? And if so, do those theists more confident in their beliefs tend to be able to defend their religion whilst retaining greater equanimity? Any theists here willing to admit that they merely hope, rather than fully believe, that God exists? I suppose a lot does go on inside people we'll never know about it. People are individuals with individual experiences, complicated hopes and fears. I doubt it makes much difference how much of it is hope or belief. I think atheists are not admitting how much they hope there isn't a god, as he would undermine their understanding of order in the universe. All this is difficult to quantify though. Most "threats" are probably just blundering. I don't see much difference what you call them. I think that a lot of atheists hope that there is a god, but are honest with themselves that there isn't sufficient grounds for believing in one. I can think of one such atheist on this board, who I will not name. I can also think of one Christian here who fits the profile that I described in my OP (Erjen). |
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Post by camimac on Mar 5, 2017 18:18:35 GMT
I believe God is real. I cannot prove it scientifically and that does not bother me in the least. I have had experiences in my life that I can't attribute to anyone other than God. There have also been times that I've experienced a sense of absolute certainty about things. I don't claim to be clairvoyant, but I have "known" that important things in my life had happened without anyone telling me. I have a sense of absolute certainty when it comes to God. This belief surpasses hope.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Mar 5, 2017 18:21:47 GMT
This is an issue that has always intrigued me; how many people who identify as Christians (or Muslim, or any other type of theist), deep down, do not believe that God exists, but merely hope that he does. There are many theists who are extremely touchy about their faith, to the point where even someone saying "I don't believe in God" is perceived as a threat vector (perhaps even triggering the fight-or-flight instinct). Could this be evidence that many theists are constantly trying to suppress doubts which have deeply taken root in their subconscious? And if so, do those theists more confident in their beliefs tend to be able to defend their religion whilst retaining greater equanimity? Any theists here willing to admit that they merely hope, rather than fully believe, that God exists? Interesting question.
I'm an atheist but my father was a theist, more specifically a lifelong Southern Baptist. Though no one can be a perfect Christian; by their own rules, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god, but I always thought that he represented a "true Christian".
After he died, my mother was in an extreme state of disorientation, and was saying things that she normally wouldn't have. She told me, out of the blue, that Dad had been having disturbing dreams that he told her about. The dream was that he was in a place with multiple hallways and doors, and he didn't know what or where this place was. He was frantically trying to figure out what was going on, and then he saw a particular door, and thought, I know what is behind this door and I will be safe. He opened the door, and saw only blackness, a void.
I have often wondered if many who profess belief or knowledge are covering a modicum of doubt, and simply hope they are right.
I feel that the more honest approach is to state one's uncertainty; agnostics state that it is not possible to KNOW whether or not there is a god and if there is, the nature of that god, based on empirical evidence. I lean toward the belief that no god exists, but make no absolute claims. That makes me an agnostic atheist.
So what you are looking for is an agnostic theist. It will be interesting to see if one shows up.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 18:25:28 GMT
I don't know if god(s) exist. I don't believe that god(s) exist or do not exist. I sometimes hope that god(s) exist. I sometimes hope that they don't exist.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 18:26:55 GMT
I know God exists and Who He is.
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Post by blade on Mar 5, 2017 18:28:37 GMT
I know God exists.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Mar 5, 2017 20:53:05 GMT
What you're describing is basically what Daniel Dennett coined "belief in belief." For many people, there comes a point where they start to doubt, and at that point it's often easier to think that they SHOULD believe, and this "should" can in itself perpetuate the belief and can probably even fool them into thinking they actually do believe. I think what you said about the "touchiness" being a sign is very possible true. There is science out there that suggests that a lot of what people lash out against most vehemently are things or qualities that they recognize and hate in themselves. So if a believer hates doubting, yet the arguments of others remind them of that doubt, this could easily make them angry and cause them to lash out against those that reminded them. I basically got over this when I became a rationalist and put truth as my priority. Any belief I have is merely in service of truth, and if one of them is wrong then I want to abandon it as swiftly as possible, and the best way to prove their wrong is for them to be challenged.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 21:06:32 GMT
This is an issue that has always intrigued me; how many people who identify as Christians (or Muslim, or any other type of theist), deep down, do not believe that God exists, but merely hope that he does. There are many theists who are extremely touchy about their faith, to the point where even someone saying "I don't believe in God" is perceived as a threat vector (perhaps even triggering the fight-or-flight instinct). Could this be evidence that many theists are constantly trying to suppress doubts which have deeply taken root in their subconscious? And if so, do those theists more confident in their beliefs tend to be able to defend their religion whilst retaining greater equanimity? Any theists here willing to admit that they merely hope, rather than fully believe, that God exists?
So what you are looking for is an agnostic theist. It will be interesting to see if one shows up.
I'm sure that there are some who are here, but who would be loathe to admit to it, even to themselves. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 21:16:07 GMT
I am a strange case where I hope there is no god or afterlife but realize just because I want something doesnt mean it is what I will get. I doubt everything too much to completely be an atheist.
I have on occasion run into christians that feel there is nothing wrong with questioning faith and that the reason they are christian is because their faith has been tested.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 21:18:07 GMT
What you're describing is basically what Daniel Dennett coined "belief in belief." For many people, there comes a point where they start to doubt, and at that point it's often easier to think that they SHOULD believe, and this "should" can in itself perpetuate the belief and can probably even fool them into thinking they actually do believe. I think what you said about the "touchiness" being a sign is very possible true. There is science out there that suggests that a lot of what people lash out against most vehemently are things or qualities that they recognize and hate in themselves. So if a believer hates doubting, yet the arguments of others remind them of that doubt, this could easily make them angry and cause them to lash out against those that reminded them. I basically got over this when I became a rationalist and put truth as my priority. Any belief I have is merely in service of truth, and if one of them is wrong then I want to abandon it as swiftly as possible, and the best way to prove their wrong is for them to be challenged. Yes, I think that I may have come across that term "belief in belief" before. I also try to be as rationalist as possible and to not emotionally invest in the truth of certain ideas that can either be objectively true or objectively false. When I think back to a time in my life when I was emotionally invested in reports of paranormal occurrences and pseudo-scientific books that lent credence to such events (but could never quite suppress all scepticism), I would start to feel chagrined when I was researching into some Erjen-esque reported phenomenon and then some scientist would try and spoil it for me by offering prosaic explanations for the events in question. I think that this attitude very much reflects how Erjen seems to feel about religious discussion, as he has stated that religion is something you either believe in or disbelieve, but there is no reason for a disbeliever to be discussing it at all. |
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Post by THawk on Mar 5, 2017 23:27:17 GMT
This is an issue that has always intrigued me; how many people who identify as Christians (or Muslim, or any other type of theist), deep down, do not believe that God exists, but merely hope that he does. There are many theists who are extremely touchy about their faith, to the point where even someone saying "I don't believe in God" is perceived as a threat vector (perhaps even triggering the fight-or-flight instinct). Could this be evidence that many theists are constantly trying to suppress doubts which have deeply taken root in their subconscious? And if so, do those theists more confident in their beliefs tend to be able to defend their religion whilst retaining greater equanimity? Any theists here willing to admit that they merely hope, rather than fully believe, that God exists? This is a flawed question because I can tell you dismiss or do not understand the workings of faith. Technically every single Christian in the world falls under your category of "hope rather than know." Yes, some claim to have seen miracles, to have had visions experiences etc. but until you are standing at the Pearly Gates (or not,) everyone merely has hope, not some kind of final knowledge. But "doubt" is not a bad thing. Doubt means you are a real person living in a real world struggling with real questions. Mother Theresa had extreme doubt for a good deal of her adult life, she suffered greatly with doubt, yet was still chosen to become a saint. One can not possibly go through a reading of the New Testament and not understand how faith and hope are interlinked together. It's the flip side of the question you should be asking. If you are an atheist and do not believe in God...do you at least hope that He exists? Or have you deluded yourself into embracing some kind of humanistic worldview which mistakenly proposes that the experience of existing is not utterly horrendous without God? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 23:30:49 GMT
Am I certain there is a God? No I'm not but I prefer believing that there is a God and that there is more to life than what we see here. I wouldn't call that hope as I don't sit around thinking "I hope God exists to justify my faith" as I don't really do a whole lot in terms of my faith and religious beliefs anyway.
For me spirituality is a personal thing, I don't follow any religion as such.
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Post by awhina on Mar 5, 2017 23:31:46 GMT
This is an issue that has always intrigued me; how many people who identify as Christians (or Muslim, or any other type of theist), deep down, do not believe that God exists, but merely hope that he does. There are many theists who are extremely touchy about their faith, to the point where even someone saying "I don't believe in God" is perceived as a threat vector (perhaps even triggering the fight-or-flight instinct). Could this be evidence that many theists are constantly trying to suppress doubts which have deeply taken root in their subconscious? And if so, do those theists more confident in their beliefs tend to be able to defend their religion whilst retaining greater equanimity? Any theists here willing to admit that they merely hope, rather than fully believe, that God exists? I know that God exists. I have no doubt whatsoever. |
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Post by lowtacks86 on Mar 5, 2017 23:35:46 GMT
I'm not sure how any intellectually honest person can purport to "know" God exists, sounds to me like they have a really distorted notion of what is "knowing". As a non believer I don't "know" God doesn't exist, I just have a lack of belief until sufficient evidence is provided.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Mar 5, 2017 23:43:32 GMT
I'm not sure why anybody would hope that this being who has committed global genocide, set up a system of eternal torture, and who watches everything you do like some creep, actually exists. Moreover, in a best case scenario you live in a heaven where you might have fun for a few hundred years, but what about the thousand after that, and the million after that, and the billion after that, and the trillion after that, and you still have eternity left. This would be torture. |
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Post by general313 on Mar 5, 2017 23:56:56 GMT
This is an issue that has always intrigued me; how many people who identify as Christians (or Muslim, or any other type of theist), deep down, do not believe that God exists, but merely hope that he does. There are many theists who are extremely touchy about their faith, to the point where even someone saying "I don't believe in God" is perceived as a threat vector (perhaps even triggering the fight-or-flight instinct). Could this be evidence that many theists are constantly trying to suppress doubts which have deeply taken root in their subconscious? And if so, do those theists more confident in their beliefs tend to be able to defend their religion whilst retaining greater equanimity? Any theists here willing to admit that they merely hope, rather than fully believe, that God exists? This "threat vector" has been used by priesthood of various religions throughout history to maintain the flock. The competition is not just atheism (that's just a small minority) but competing religions. It goes from touchy feelings to outright Jihad. |
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Post by awhina on Mar 6, 2017 0:03:49 GMT
This is an issue that has always intrigued me; how many people who identify as Christians (or Muslim, or any other type of theist), deep down, do not believe that God exists, but merely hope that he does. There are many theists who are extremely touchy about their faith, to the point where even someone saying "I don't believe in God" is perceived as a threat vector (perhaps even triggering the fight-or-flight instinct). Could this be evidence that many theists are constantly trying to suppress doubts which have deeply taken root in their subconscious? And if so, do those theists more confident in their beliefs tend to be able to defend their religion whilst retaining greater equanimity? Any theists here willing to admit that they merely hope, rather than fully believe, that God exists? This "threat vector" has been used by priesthood of various religions throughout history to maintain the flock. The competition is not just atheism (that's just a small minority) but competing religions. It goes from touchy feelings to outright Jihad. Seriously? I don't know about what you have been reading but I have never in my life come across any threats. Either in my atheist childhood or my adult life. |
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