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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 18, 2017 16:20:48 GMT
Because that's how Abrams mystery box works. Rian Johnson just came in and did the dirty work part of it because Abrams was too much of a coward to do it himself, and then take the heat for it. So Rian does it and takes the heat for the bad part of Abrams mystery box - killing the intrigue of the mystery by revealing that it's a disappointing dead end with no significant answers. And what does Rian Johnson get for being Abrams fall guy? He gets to do the next trilogy. Fans pay the price. It will be interesting to see how much of the fanbase is left by the time Rian Johnson's trilogy makes it's first release. Its his damn fault. To JJ Abrams credit, he has learned one thing from watching the prequels... Rian Johnson is Abrams' Count Dooku to JJ's Palpatine. In other words, Rian served the same purpose in making TLJ that Dooku served for Palpatine in being in charge of the Separatists. Everyone blamed Dooku for the damage that the Separatists did when the Separatists were really Palpatine's design! |
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Post by kuatorises on Dec 18, 2017 16:21:37 GMT
This is a fundamentally flawed argument. This has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of a movie. It's an observation about how we, myself included, react when a serial story doesn't fulfill our personal expectations. It has happened to some degree in every episode of this series after the first one. Of course the issue is much greater now than it was in 1980. But it is. You openly expressed disappointment when a movie doesn't turn out the way you think it should. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 16:23:39 GMT
Sure I do. Which do you want to debate? None of what you listed was a plot hole. Just scenes that you didn't like. Choose one. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 16:23:54 GMT
The post isn't an argument or about the quality of a movie. It's an observation about how we, myself included, react when a serial story doesn't fulfill our personal expectations. It has happened to some degree in every episode of this series after the first one. Of course the issue is much greater now than it was in 1980. But it is. You openly expressed disappointment when a movie doesn't turn out the way you think it should. What does the quality of a film have to do with how I wish the story to go? |
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Post by mcufan on Dec 18, 2017 16:31:09 GMT
You sit there for 2 years contemplating what should happen next. Then when the next episode of the soap opera comes out, some things may happen the way you think but , most things... don't. Infuriating isn"t it? Not knowing what's next? Somebody in control of the story and it's not you and they do things you don't think should be done! Pretty sure this has happened before... Bullshit. The story could have gone any one of a thousand ways and been good. This was supposed to be part 2 of a trilogy right? Then why did it undo everything that was set up in the first movie? There are so many fucking plot holes that I can't even coherently put them in one place. KOR, Luke's lightsaber, the Krait Escape, Snoke's dismissal, Luke's reason for disappearing, Luke's death, Yoda's scene...the list goes on and on. Established lore flushed right down the toilet by people who don't know what the fuck they are doing. What Plot Holes? What's the matter with luke's lightsaber? What's the matter with the Crait escape? Hell non of those are plot holes. Let's discuss one by one. Those are things you wanted explained and they didn't. You want things explained? About the OT: How did the emperor become the emperor? How does a jedi manifest in ghost form? Was Vader telling the truth about luke being his son? Why half of empire was an wild goose chase after the millenium falcon? cut that out they would have ended in the same spot. Who are the Sith, why is vader called the dark lord of the sith? Are there more Sith? Who is Luke and Leia mother? Who can a jedi levitate rocks and pull lightsabers out of the snow? and on and on and on Some were answered but some were left to the imagination (or the next installment, wich you can do, this is not over yet, you want answers in the second act) And then came the PT, but only then!Unresolved mysteries? Star Wars always had them, and that's what was great about it. Nowadays everything has to be explained. Fuck that. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 17:10:20 GMT
What Plot Holes? What's the matter with luke's lightsaber? Let's start with the fact that it shows up at all, which was a stretch, but one I was willing to be open-minded about. Then it just happens to be in a location that no one in TFA intended to visit at that time, discovered by a girl who was a nobody and who has been randomly thrust into the adventure. Then it is the device by which The Force Awakens in this nobody character, allowing her to see visions of scenes that no longer exist in the movie continuum.And then the whole mystery about how it showed up in the first place and why it's seemingly so significant (doubled down by The Aftermath Trilogy in which much ado is made about finding Vader's light saber) is dropped like a bad habit. Then Kylo uses telekinesis to move the light saber into murder mode without drawing the attention of the most prolific telekinesis/telepathy user in canon history without said telepath sensing it.Then Luke wields the blue light saber even though Kylo had just destroyed it and yet Kylo doesn't notice.That's three plot holes alone just for one prop!!! |
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Post by ThatGuy on Dec 18, 2017 17:22:09 GMT
What Plot Holes? What's the matter with luke's lightsaber? Let's start with the fact that it shows up at all, which was a stretch, but one I was willing to be open-minded about. Then it just happens to be in a location that no one in TFA intended to visit at that time, discovered by a girl who was a nobody and who has been randomly thrust into the adventure. Then it is the device by which The Force Awakens in this nobody character, allowing her to see visions of scenes that no longer exist in the movie continuum.And then the whole mystery about how it showed up in the first place and why it's seemingly so significant (doubled down by The Aftermath Trilogy in which much ado is made about finding Vader's light saber) is dropped like a bad habit. Then Kylo uses telekinesis to move the light saber into murder mode without drawing the attention of the most prolific telekinesis/telepathy user in canon history without said telepath sensing it.Then Luke wields the blue light saber even though Kylo had just destroyed it and yet Kylo doesn't notice.That's three plot holes alone just for one prop!!! The same as the one ring in Lord of the Rings or the board game in Jumanji. The Force wanted the lightsaber to be found. Lucas compared the lightsaber to Excalibur at one point. The lightsaber is important enough that Rey picked it up after the throne room fight and brought it with her. You do know the books are more supplemental than actual canon, right? Kylo tricked him by doing the same thing with his own lightsaber. Snoke's attention was so heavily on Kylo and Rey that he wasn't paying attention to his immediate surroundings. Or Luke has his own lightsaber. Kylo built his lightsaber. Why can't Rey build hers? No plot holes there. Just a person not paying attention. |
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Post by mcufan on Dec 18, 2017 17:38:23 GMT
Let's start with the fact that it shows up at all, which was a stretch, but one I was willing to be open-minded about. Then it just happens to be in a location that no one in TFA intended to visit at that time, discovered by a girl who was a nobody and who has been randomly thrust into the adventure. Then it is the device by which The Force Awakens in this nobody character, allowing her to see visions of scenes that no longer exist in the movie continuum.And then the whole mystery about how it showed up in the first place and why it's seemingly so significant (doubled down by The Aftermath Trilogy in which much ado is made about finding Vader's light saber) is dropped like a bad habit. Then Kylo uses telekinesis to move the light saber into murder mode without drawing the attention of the most prolific telekinesis/telepathy user in canon history without said telepath sensing it.Then Luke wields the blue light saber even though Kylo had just destroyed it and yet Kylo doesn't notice.That's three plot holes alone just for one prop!!! The same as the one ring in Lord of the Rings or the board game in Jumanji. The Force wanted the lightsaber to be found. Lucas compared the lightsaber to Excalibur at one point. The lightsaber is important enough that Rey picked it up after the throne room fight and brought it with her. You do know the books are more supplemental than actual canon, right? Kylo tricked him by doing the same thing with his own lightsaber. Snoke's attention was so heavily on Kylo and Rey that he wasn't paying attention to his immediate surroundings. Or Luke has his own lightsaber. Kylo built his lightsaber. Why can't Rey build hers? No plot holes there. Just a person not paying attention. You litterally beat me by a minute... LOL i am at work and had a call and couldn't answer. Also the story of how the lightsaber was found is irrelevant (an unganut found it it made it's way to maz, that's it maybe, or whatever you want use your imagination damn it) I remember the Vader lightsaber thingy in aftermath what about it? It's not even the same lighstsaber and that was 30 years ago. As kylo killing snoke that was a stroke of genious, he tricked snoke by doing the things he was doing to rey so his intentions were masked. THe true enemy snoke was sensing was not rey but snoke himself. Kylo didn't have the chance to examine the lightsaber luke was wielding. It would be 100 times worse if kylo just saw the saber and said wait that is the same saber, you are not here!!!!!!!! NEXT "PLOT HOLE" PLEASE! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 17:41:32 GMT
Let's start with the fact that it shows up at all, which was a stretch, but one I was willing to be open-minded about. Then it just happens to be in a location that no one in TFA intended to visit at that time, discovered by a girl who was a nobody and who has been randomly thrust into the adventure. Then it is the device by which The Force Awakens in this nobody character, allowing her to see visions of scenes that no longer exist in the movie continuum.And then the whole mystery about how it showed up in the first place and why it's seemingly so significant (doubled down by The Aftermath Trilogy in which much ado is made about finding Vader's light saber) is dropped like a bad habit. Then Kylo uses telekinesis to move the light saber into murder mode without drawing the attention of the most prolific telekinesis/telepathy user in canon history without said telepath sensing it.Then Luke wields the blue light saber even though Kylo had just destroyed it and yet Kylo doesn't notice.That's three plot holes alone just for one prop!!! The same as the one ring in Lord of the Rings or the board game in Jumanji. The Force wanted the lightsaber to be found. Lucas compared the lightsaber to Excalibur at one point. The lightsaber is important enough that Rey picked it up after the throne room fight and brought it with her. You do know the books are more supplemental than actual canon, right? Kylo tricked him by doing the same thing with his own lightsaber. Snoke's attention was so heavily on Kylo and Rey that he wasn't paying attention to his immediate surroundings. Or Luke has his own lightsaber. Kylo built his lightsaber. Why can't Rey build hers? No plot holes there. Just a person not paying attention. First, you don't address the scenes that were dropped from the movie continuum. That's a plot hole. We were showed something happening one way, when in fact, it did not happen that way. And there was no exposition as to why things changed. That's a plot hole. Second, the books are every bit as much canon as the movies. The movies are infinitely more important, but the books and other media are supposed to be considered "true" and then things don't line up between the books and movies, there's a problem. Third, "Kylo tricked him?" That's a plot hole. The same guy who can connect two powerful minds from across the galaxy without them knowing it, but can't sense his own ensuing demise? And this coming from the person he had just displayed masterful control over? Plot hole! Fourth, "or Luke has his own light saber" and "maybe Rey built hers" are your explanations for Kylo's inability to see through the astral projection facade? Wrong. Kylo is extremely familiar with this object, so much so that he recognizes it in the middle of a dark forest. But now he can't recognize what is what in the middle of the day in an open field? Plot hole! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 17:56:38 GMT
The same as the one ring in Lord of the Rings or the board game in Jumanji. The Force wanted the lightsaber to be found. Lucas compared the lightsaber to Excalibur at one point. The lightsaber is important enough that Rey picked it up after the throne room fight and brought it with her. You do know the books are more supplemental than actual canon, right? Kylo tricked him by doing the same thing with his own lightsaber. Snoke's attention was so heavily on Kylo and Rey that he wasn't paying attention to his immediate surroundings. Or Luke has his own lightsaber. Kylo built his lightsaber. Why can't Rey build hers? No plot holes there. Just a person not paying attention I remember the Vader lightsaber thingy in aftermath what about it? It's not even the same lighstsaber and that was 30 years ago.Clearly you don't remember it too well. |
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Post by mcufan on Dec 18, 2017 18:03:24 GMT
I remember the Vader lightsaber thingy in aftermath what about it? It's not even the same lighstsaber and that was 30 years ago.Clearly you don't remember it too well. What don't i remember correctly? It was around Vader's lightsaber the Red bladed one not Anakin´s the blue one... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 18:53:41 GMT
Clearly you don't remember it too well. What don't i remember correctly? It was around Vader's lightsaber the Red bladed one not Anakin´s the blue one... Perhaps I misunderstood your post. When you said it "wasn't the same one" I thought you were saying it wasn't Vader's red saber, but after re-reading your post, I'm guessing you meant it wasn't Anakin's blue saber. So you agree it was Vader's red saber. What was the point of introducing that storyline then if not to play into the mystery/plot device of discovering the blue one? |
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Post by mcufan on Dec 18, 2017 19:04:56 GMT
What don't i remember correctly? It was around Vader's lightsaber the Red bladed one not Anakin´s the blue one... Perhaps I misunderstood your post. When you said it "wasn't the same one" I thought you were saying it wasn't Vader's red saber, but after re-reading your post, I'm guessing you meant it wasn't Anakin's blue saber. So you agree it was Vader's red saber. What was the point of introducing that storyline then if not to play into the mystery/plot device of discovering the blue one? To introduce the acolytes in the book... I don't even know what that has got to do with the movie... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 19:11:13 GMT
Perhaps I misunderstood your post. When you said it "wasn't the same one" I thought you were saying it wasn't Vader's red saber, but after re-reading your post, I'm guessing you meant it wasn't Anakin's blue saber. So you agree it was Vader's red saber. What was the point of introducing that storyline then if not to play into the mystery/plot device of discovering the blue one? To introduce the acolytes in the book... I don't even know what that has got to do with the movie...What do you mean by "that?" The Acolytes or the red saber? |
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Post by mcufan on Dec 18, 2017 19:16:22 GMT
To introduce the acolytes in the book... I don't even know what that has got to do with the movie...What do you mean by "that?" The Acolytes or the red saber? well, both... I don't get why you pulled aftermath into this... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 19:21:22 GMT
What do you mean by "that?" The Acolytes or the red saber? well, both... I don't get why you pulled aftermath into this... Per my earlier response, I presented three plot holes and then additional evidence of bad writing surrounding the blue light saber plot thread. Part of that additional evidence (not plot holes mind you, but evidence of bad writing) was the mystery box of why the saber was connected to Rey and what the significance of that was, not to mention how it was found. Fast forward to Aftermath and the creative geniuses at Disney give us an alternate plot thread about Vader's saber; that it had been found (against all logical odds, just like the blue one), that it was highly sought after and that it deserved its own sub-story. This also seemed to indicate it would play into the mystery box of the blue one. But all of that was pointless. Pointless = bad in my world. |
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 18, 2017 19:29:19 GMT
The same as the one ring in Lord of the Rings or the board game in Jumanji. The Force wanted the lightsaber to be found. Lucas compared the lightsaber to Excalibur at one point. The lightsaber is important enough that Rey picked it up after the throne room fight and brought it with her. You do know the books are more supplemental than actual canon, right? Kylo tricked him by doing the same thing with his own lightsaber. Snoke's attention was so heavily on Kylo and Rey that he wasn't paying attention to his immediate surroundings. Or Luke has his own lightsaber. Kylo built his lightsaber. Why can't Rey build hers? No plot holes there. Just a person not paying attention. You litterally beat me by a minute... LOL i am at work and had a call and couldn't answer. Also the story of how the lightsaber was found is irrelevant (an unganut found it it made it's way to maz, that's it maybe, or whatever you want use your imagination damn it) I remember the Vader lightsaber thingy in aftermath what about it? It's not even the same lighstsaber and that was 30 years ago. As kylo killing snoke that was a stroke of genious, he tricked snoke by doing the things he was doing to rey so his intentions were masked. THe true enemy snoke was sensing was not rey but snoke himself. Kylo didn't have the chance to examine the lightsaber luke was wielding. It would be 100 times worse if kylo just saw the saber and said wait that is the same saber, you are not here!!!!!!!! NEXT "PLOT HOLE" PLEASE! Translation: when the writing is bad and sloppy, defend it by saying it didn't matter to the story or characters of the movie anyway. And make up a bunch of poor fanfic explanations that are clearly not representative of what actually happened. LOL! |
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Post by mcufan on Dec 18, 2017 19:30:40 GMT
well, both... I don't get why you pulled aftermath into this... Per my earlier response, I presented three plot holes and then additional evidence of bad writing surrounding the blue light saber plot thread. Part of that additional evidence (not plot holes mind you, but evidence of bad writing) was the mystery box of why the saber was connected to Rey and what the significance of that was, not to mention how it was found. Fast forward to Aftermath and the creative geniuses at Disney give us an alternate plot thread about Vader's saber; that it had been found (against all logical odds, just like the blue one), that it was highly sought after and that it deserved its own sub-story. This also seemed to indicate it would play into the mystery box of the blue one. But all of that was pointless. Pointless = bad in my world. OK... But you think we will not get an answer in the third one? Cause this is the second one in a trilogy you know... Things i want answered in the third: Luke's saber, Rey's parents (is kylo lying?) Poe as a leader, will it work? Kylo redemption or not, Rey dark side or a mix of both. Luke coming as a force ghost to answer some questions. Phasma, dead or not? Will finn finnaly catch up to his hero status? |
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Post by mcufan on Dec 18, 2017 19:31:52 GMT
You litterally beat me by a minute... LOL i am at work and had a call and couldn't answer. Also the story of how the lightsaber was found is irrelevant (an unganut found it it made it's way to maz, that's it maybe, or whatever you want use your imagination damn it) I remember the Vader lightsaber thingy in aftermath what about it? It's not even the same lighstsaber and that was 30 years ago. As kylo killing snoke that was a stroke of genious, he tricked snoke by doing the things he was doing to rey so his intentions were masked. THe true enemy snoke was sensing was not rey but snoke himself. Kylo didn't have the chance to examine the lightsaber luke was wielding. It would be 100 times worse if kylo just saw the saber and said wait that is the same saber, you are not here!!!!!!!! NEXT "PLOT HOLE" PLEASE! Translation: when the writing is bad and sloppy, defend it by saying it didn't matter to the story or characters of the movie anyway. LOL! What are you talking about? a prop? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 19:50:28 GMT
But you think we will not get an answer in the third one? Cause this is the second one in a trilogy you know... Lol, nope. The blue light saber plot thread has been clipped. If it ever is explained, it will be in a book. Certainly not in Ep. IX. Others on this site warned me that the plot thread was never meant to go anywhere because it was a JJ mystery box. I didn't listen. I should have. |
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