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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 18:34:15 GMT
I'm still not convinced that the Luke I remember would ever fall as far as he did, shutting himself off from his friends, and leaving them with the mess of Snoke and Kylo.
But then again, now that I think about it, if Luke had tried and tried to bring about better a galaxy, but continually it blew up in his and his family and friends faces, maybe he convinced himself that the GFFA was better off without him messing things up. That he was saving his friends by no longer being there to make it worse.
That thought has progressed from "Not in a million years" to "Well you may have a point" over the last couple of weeks.
Kinda like George Bailey without a Clarence to show him what was really going on with him. I guess even Luke could have a crisis of faith.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Dec 27, 2017 18:42:16 GMT
Kinda like George Bailey without a Clarence to show him what was really going on with him. I guess even Luke could have a crisis of faith.
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Post by Jedan Archer on Dec 27, 2017 19:01:49 GMT
I never fully understood the fan outcry regarding Luke despite the - very strong - argument that a guy who previously believed his murderous father redeemable would do so too with an innocent but tempted kid. Same with him becoming a hermit refusing to clean up the mess he created and letting the FO rise.
For me the complaint cannot be that Luke has become this way - history is full of idealistic young men becoming bloodthirsty monsters afraid of losing their power and/or disillusioned cynics- but that Luke's character change is poorly written and implemented.
If you go with a full character U-turn on Luke you have to properly explain the change to make it believable. They failed with that it seems, and by "they" I mean the creators of TFA too.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 19:18:27 GMT
I never fully understood the fan outcry regarding Luke despite the - very strong - argument that a guy who previously believed his murderous father redeemable would do so too with an innocent but tempted kid. Same with him becoming a hermit refusing to clean up the mess he created and letting the FO rise. For me the complaint cannot be that Luke has become this way - history is full of idealistic young men becoming bloodthirsty monsters afraid of losing their power and/or disillusioned cynics- but that Luke's character change is poorly written and implemented. If you go with a full character U-turn on Luke you have to properly explain the change to make it believable. They failed with that it seems, and by "they" I mean the creators of TFA too. I'll just live with that flaw if it's not expanded upon in episode IX. I hope there is no presequel trilogy or one off film planned to fill in that gap.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 27, 2017 22:09:42 GMT
I never fully understood the fan outcry regarding Luke despite the - very strong - argument that a guy who previously believed his murderous father redeemable would do so too with an innocent but tempted kid. Same with him becoming a hermit refusing to clean up the mess he created and letting the FO rise. For me the complaint cannot be that Luke has become this way - history is full of idealistic young men becoming bloodthirsty monsters afraid of losing their power and/or disillusioned cynics- but that Luke's character change is poorly written and implemented. If you go with a full character U-turn on Luke you have to properly explain the change to make it believable. They failed with that it seems, and by "they" I mean the creators of TFA too. I'll just live with that flaw if it's not expanded upon in episode IX. I hope there is no presequel trilogy or one off film planned to fill in that gap. I would be okay with a one off, but it would probably be poorly written. And then you would have to find someone besides Hamill to play Luke.
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Post by Jedan Archer on Dec 27, 2017 22:21:25 GMT
I'll just live with that flaw if it's not expanded upon in episode IX. I hope there is no presequel trilogy or one off film planned to fill in that gap. I would be okay with a one off, but it would probably be poorly written. And then you would have to find someone besides Hamill to play Luke. I'd be satisfied with an animated feature or miniseries with Hamill voicing Luke (trust me he was meant to do this).
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 27, 2017 23:12:37 GMT
Well I still find Luke's characterization in TLJ to be quite a stretch in contrast to the Luke of the OT. But I will concede that it's not out of the realm of possibility.
The whole issue still leads me back to a number of prominent questions. Let's say you completely buy into Luke's TLJ characterization: he is a grumpy hermit who cut himself off from the Force and isolated himself on a secret backwater planet. He is riddled with guilt over Kylo and the academy, and he figures his friends and the galaxy is better off without him AND the way of the Jedi. So much so that he withdraws from addressing any consequences of the Darkside path that Kylo is now on, and he ignores Snoke trying to take over the galaxy... Sooooo why leave the map?
Another question: Why did Luke contemplate killing Kylo. I understand what the the given reason was, but why? Why was Luke the same negative, cynical character in that moment that he allegedly became AFTER the events of the academy being destroyed and Kylo going full Darkside? Why was Luke such a self-defeatist before these events happened?
Another question: During Luke explaining to Rey what happened with Kylo and the academy, he says something to the effect of - he looked inside Kylo's Darkness and saw that Snoke had already turned him. Wait, what? How?!? Did Luke not know that Kylo was influenced or trained by Snoke before he came to Luke? If Luke knew then it seems unlikely he would've been surprised when he peered into Kylo's Darkness. If he didn't know then how did Luke know of Snoke already? And what was the previous influence Snoke had on Kylo? Training or something else?... Unexplained.
And unless we get some Snoke flashback cameos in episode 9, this may all be more muddled mystery boxes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2017 23:35:05 GMT
Well I still find Luke's characterization in TLJ to be quite a stretch in contrast to the Luke of the OT. But I will concede that it's not out of the realm of possibility. The whole issue still leads me back to a number of prominent questions. Let's say you completely buy into Luke's TLJ characterization: he is a grumpy hermit who cut himself off from the Force and isolated himself on a secret backwater planet. He is riddled with guilt over Kylo and the academy, and he figures his friends and the galaxy is better off without him AND the way of the Jedi. So much so that he withdraws from addressing any consequences of the Darkside path that Kylo is now on, and he ignores Snoke trying to take over the galaxy... Sooooo why leave the map? Another question: Why did Luke contemplate killing Kylo. I understand what the the given reason was, but why? Why was Luke the same negative, cynical character in that moment that he allegedly became AFTER the events of the academy being destroyed and Kylo going full Darkside? Why was Luke such a self-defeatist before these events happened? Another question: During Luke explaining to Rey what happened with Kylo and the academy, he says something to the effect of - he looked inside Kylo's Darkness and saw that Snoke had already turned him. Wait, what? How?!? Did Luke not know that Kylo was influenced or trained by Snoke before he came to Luke? If Luke knew then it seems unlikely he would've been surprised when he peered into Kylo's Darkness. If he didn't know then how did Luke know of Snoke already? And what was the previous influence Snoke had on Kylo? Training or something else?... Unexplained. And unless we get some Snoke flashback cameos in episode 9, this may all be more muddled mystery boxes. I see plenty of muddle still out there. There's stuff that I hope will be explained, and stuff that I know will never be explained. My point is that I am beginning to see that Luke falling to this point does almost fit the character. And that's a far cry from the "Luke would never turn on his friends" that was my initial reaction. It's because I'm beginning to accept that he didn't turn his back on his friends, but that I honestly felt his friends would be better of if he wasn't fucking everything up. I'm still getting there. The map part though. Luke couldn't very well give out a map in advance to a place he was searching for, could he? San Tekka obtained the missing piece of a map from the archives of the Empire that showed the location of the First Jedi Temple. And since it was realized that the map to the First Jedi Temple would lead to the place that Luke was searching for, Kylo called it the "Map to Skywalker", believing Luke found the place he was on a quest to find. The muddled mystery boxes are still out there, and JJ gets to clean up his mess or wade through it.
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Post by shinnickneth on Dec 27, 2017 23:50:18 GMT
Well I still find Luke's characterization in TLJ to be quite a stretch in contrast to the Luke of the OT. But I will concede that it's not out of the realm of possibility. The whole issue still leads me back to a number of prominent questions. Let's say you completely buy into Luke's TLJ characterization: he is a grumpy hermit who cut himself off from the Force and isolated himself on a secret backwater planet. He is riddled with guilt over Kylo and the academy, and he figures his friends and the galaxy is better off without him AND the way of the Jedi. So much so that he withdraws from addressing any consequences of the Darkside path that Kylo is now on, and he ignores Snoke trying to take over the galaxy... Sooooo why leave the map? Another question: Why did Luke contemplate killing Kylo. I understand what the the given reason was, but why? Why was Luke the same negative, cynical character in that moment that he allegedly became AFTER the events of the academy being destroyed and Kylo going full Darkside? Why was Luke such a self-defeatist before these events happened? Another question: During Luke explaining to Rey what happened with Kylo and the academy, he says something to the effect of - he looked inside Kylo's Darkness and saw that Snoke had already turned him. Wait, what? How?!? Did Luke not know that Kylo was influenced or trained by Snoke before he came to Luke? If Luke knew then it seems unlikely he would've been surprised when he peered into Kylo's Darkness. If he didn't know then how did Luke know of Snoke already? And what was the previous influence Snoke had on Kylo? Training or something else?... Unexplained. And unless we get some Snoke flashback cameos in episode 9, this may all be more muddled mystery boxes. Good questions. The map really put his friends/family in danger. For someone who was suppose to be fearful of causing further damage (for he personally feels responsible for everything), he's careless to put the burden of his safety on the mind's of the Resistance, Leia, and Han. Even the Droids end up involved in protecting his safety...and for what? So he could pout and wait to die on an island? Luke selfishly makes everything about him, while at the same time trying to be like, "No, I am unimportant. I don't matter. I'll just mess everything up. Blah, blah, blah..." It doesn't add up. Why didn't Luke just use a hologram instead of projecting himself to Kylo? Kylo is an emotional young man. He could have held them off with a hologram. Why did Luke even try to strike down his own padawan/nephew just because he felt the Dark Side with him? Luke was the first Jedi in a Star Wars movie to embrace both sides of the Force (i.e. The Dark Side being present when he Force Chokes Jabba's guards and aggressively strikes at Vader in Episodes 5/6). He proved you can channel both sides for the good. The Emperor and Vader both tried to seduce Luke to the Dark Side at the same time and failed. Luke remained true to himself. If he couldn't even be swayed by two experienced, powerful Sith lords, why would Luke not believe Ben could remain on the Light Side? Why would that make him lose all hope? When he knew his friends were falling into a trap in Episode 6, he didn't fall. When he got his hand chopped off and was staring up at Vader, he didn't fall either (well...physically I suppose haha). I know they were trying to go with a Macbeth type of writing in Episode 8, but it doesn't add up. Why doesn't Luke try to turn Kylo back to the Light Side? He's his nephew! He should try to turn him back. There's good in Kylo. Luke didn't back down from helping Anakin in his conflict. If the knowledge of Vader's past doesn't stop Luke, why would Kylo's? Luke tells Kylo that he failed him. If Luke really felt that way, why wouldn't he attempt to turn Kylo back? There suddenly seems to be no concern what happened to his former student. The final shot of Episode 7 doesn't match up with Episode 8. Why not? At the end of Episode 7, Rey walks up to Luke, he turns around removing his hood, she stretches her arm to him with lightsaber in hand, he looks at her with red/misty eyes. Cut to Episode 8 with the same scene... No tears, no redness, and no knowledge of Han Solo's death. He doesn't even seem to be reacting in any way that he does in Episode 7's scene. In fact, he now seems emotionally shut down and uninterested in the lightsaber at all. Uh...what? Then he chucks it behind him like nothing! On a side note, they really made Luke look frumpy in those white robes. His clothes during his confrontation with Kylo are much better.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 28, 2017 0:29:41 GMT
Well I still find Luke's characterization in TLJ to be quite a stretch in contrast to the Luke of the OT. But I will concede that it's not out of the realm of possibility. The whole issue still leads me back to a number of prominent questions. Let's say you completely buy into Luke's TLJ characterization: he is a grumpy hermit who cut himself off from the Force and isolated himself on a secret backwater planet. He is riddled with guilt over Kylo and the academy, and he figures his friends and the galaxy is better off without him AND the way of the Jedi. So much so that he withdraws from addressing any consequences of the Darkside path that Kylo is now on, and he ignores Snoke trying to take over the galaxy... Sooooo why leave the map? Another question: Why did Luke contemplate killing Kylo. I understand what the the given reason was, but why? Why was Luke the same negative, cynical character in that moment that he allegedly became AFTER the events of the academy being destroyed and Kylo going full Darkside? Why was Luke such a self-defeatist before these events happened? Another question: During Luke explaining to Rey what happened with Kylo and the academy, he says something to the effect of - he looked inside Kylo's Darkness and saw that Snoke had already turned him. Wait, what? How?!? Did Luke not know that Kylo was influenced or trained by Snoke before he came to Luke? If Luke knew then it seems unlikely he would've been surprised when he peered into Kylo's Darkness. If he didn't know then how did Luke know of Snoke already? And what was the previous influence Snoke had on Kylo? Training or something else?... Unexplained. And unless we get some Snoke flashback cameos in episode 9, this may all be more muddled mystery boxes. I see plenty of muddle still out there. There's stuff that I hope will be explained, and stuff that I know will never be explained. My point is that I am beginning to see that Luke falling to this point does almost fit the character. And that's a far cry from the "Luke would never turn on his friends" that was my initial reaction. It's because I'm beginning to accept that he didn't turn his back on his friends, but that I honestly felt his friends would be better of if he wasn't fucking everything up. I'm still getting there. I see. Well I'm still farther away from than you are. Especially Luke behaving the way he did toward Kylo before Kylo destroyed the academy. There's several reasons it just doesn't fit the character to me. Hmmmm... okay. I get your explanation I think. But it still loops back around to "Why was a map left?" So Luke is going to Achto to die and never be found again. So his decision is to leave behind R2D2 with the complete map in him, minus one section that has Achto's specific location. Why not take R2D2 with him? Or better yet, why leave or put a map in Artoo at all? And the Resistance is worried about one piece of a map with no plans to acquire the rest? But nobody thinks to look in LUKE'S astromech droid in ten years? But I digress. Yeah (in coughing voice)... well the oversight of Jar Jar will be having me wait with baited breath. And taking episode 9 with a box of salt. Until then I guess there's plenty to talk about fresh off of TLJ.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 1:04:17 GMT
OK, here's how I see the whole map thing. Luke had no idea that the missing part of R2's map had the location of the temple at all, he may have not known that there was a map in the droid at all.
Here's how I see the whole saga of that damn map:
Back in the days of the Old Republic, maybe hundreds of generations ago, there was a whole map. It told where the Jedi temples were and it was part of the Jedi Archives. Just a natural thing to have of knowledge that was available at the time.
Then at some point in time the location of the first Jedi temple was removed from the greater map. Maybe during the time of the late days of the Republic, or during the time of the Empire. As shown in Rogue One, Jedi Temples were places the Empire wanted to know of so they could mine Kyber Crystals. It would have been a good thing for the Rebellion or some other enemy of the Empire to squirrel away that part of the map away from the eyes of the Empire as they went destroying temple after temple. It may have even been advantageous for an insightful green Jedi to take that information out of the Jedi Archives years earlier after he found that the location of Kamino had been wiped out and he could have understood that someone up to no good had access to the secrets of the Jedi.
In any way, I believe that many years before to shortly before the events of ANH, that the archive had the map, and that the part that identified the location of was removed, but nobody knew or cared what that section of map contained. (Except whoever hid it).
Then along comes R2, who was sticking his little probe into any little port and getting and placing information all over the place. (What a gigolo) At some point, probably when he was shacking up with the Death Star, but he had other opportunities. He happened to get the map, already altered, but it was just some info with all the other stuff in there.
That hidden piece of map, maybe it was in the possession of the Rebellion for safe keeping after the fall of the Jedi, maybe some minister of the Church of the Force as an artifact of the Jedi, but somehow it ended up in the possession of San Tekka on the surface of Jakku and he recognized that it was the map to the First Jedi Temple, and that was how others could find Luke.
So the adventure of TFA begins with San Tekka handing it over to Poe. Kylo's Empirical Archives and R2's copy have the same hole in the map, and the piece that BB8 holds fills in the hole.
Only way I can figure it to work, and it does work as far as I can tell, and fits in with Rogue One's revelation that the Empire was tearing up temples to get Kyber crystals.
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Post by kleinreturns on Dec 29, 2017 2:37:41 GMT
Interesting.
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Post by simplemoviecommenter on Dec 29, 2017 7:13:26 GMT
I'm not entirely against the idea of a disillusioned cynical Luke, but its gotta be really good and really well-written and really worth it. But then how far do you go with the grim and the dark to turn him that way before it becomes too grimdark for Star Wars? And should it really be Canon instead of in the realm of amateur fanfics?
And even then, why go there when you can do other things? Like, a successful Luke Skywalker?
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 29, 2017 13:01:33 GMT
OK, here's how I see the whole map thing. Luke had no idea that the missing part of R2's map had the location of the temple at all, he may have not known that there was a map in the droid at all. Here's how I see the whole saga of that damn map: Back in the days of the Old Republic, maybe hundreds of generations ago, there was a whole map. It told where the Jedi temples were and it was part of the Jedi Archives. Just a natural thing to have of knowledge that was available at the time. Then at some point in time the location of the first Jedi temple was removed from the greater map. Maybe during the time of the late days of the Republic, or during the time of the Empire. As shown in Rogue One, Jedi Temples were places the Empire wanted to know of so they could mine Kyber Crystals. It would have been a good thing for the Rebellion or some other enemy of the Empire to squirrel away that part of the map away from the eyes of the Empire as they went destroying temple after temple. It may have even been advantageous for an insightful green Jedi to take that information out of the Jedi Archives years earlier after he found that the location of Kamino had been wiped out and he could have understood that someone up to no good had access to the secrets of the Jedi. In any way, I believe that many years before to shortly before the events of ANH, that the archive had the map, and that the part that identified the location of was removed, but nobody knew or cared what that section of map contained. (Except whoever hid it). Then along comes R2, who was sticking his little probe into any little port and getting and placing information all over the place. (What a gigolo) At some point, probably when he was shacking up with the Death Star, but he had other opportunities. He happened to get the map, already altered, but it was just some info with all the other stuff in there. That hidden piece of map, maybe it was in the possession of the Rebellion for safe keeping after the fall of the Jedi, maybe some minister of the Church of the Force as an artifact of the Jedi, but somehow it ended up in the possession of San Tekka on the surface of Jakku and he recognized that it was the map to the First Jedi Temple, and that was how others could find Luke. So the adventure of TFA begins with San Tekka handing it over to Poe. Kylo's Empirical Archives and R2's copy have the same hole in the map, and the piece that BB8 holds fills in the hole. Only way I can figure it to work, and it does work as far as I can tell, and fits in with Rogue One's revelation that the Empire was tearing up temples to get Kyber crystals. That's a great fanfic write up explanation. It's Wookieepedia quality. Unfortunately it does still leave 2 significant plot holes: (1) Why does R2D2 only turn on when Rey enters the room, and there's nowhere left for the story to go except complete the map and go find Luke? (2) How does former galactic senator, leader of the Resistance, and Luke Skywalker's sister not think to check R2D2 for the rest of the map? Even C3PO thought it was a bad idea to check R2D2 for the rest of the map! You know, the same C3PO who helped R2D2 throughout the entire story of ANH deliver secret plans... thinks it's a bad idea to check R2D2 for secret plans!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 14:01:00 GMT
That's a great fanfic write up explanation. It's Wookieepedia quality. Unfortunately it does still leave 2 significant plot holes: (1) Why does R2D2 only turn on when Rey enters the room, and there's nowhere left for the story to go except complete the map and go find Luke? (2) How does former galactic senator, leader of the Resistance, and Luke Skywalker's sister not think to check R2D2 for the rest of the map? Even C3PO thought it was a bad idea to check R2D2 for the rest of the map! You know, the same C3PO who helped R2D2 throughout the entire story of ANH deliver secret plans... thinks it's a bad idea to check R2D2 for secret plans!Thanks, my little exercise was to fit how the whole "big map, little map" scenario could come to be, and you have to admit, it fits nice and snug. As far as the 2 unanswered questions, "What turned on R2?" and "Why didn't Leia search R2 for a map?" Those are real questions that may be left in the pile of unopened mystery boxes that are stacking up, or if JJ wants to craft an answer for that, he can. But those will probably remain unopened and the explanation of the nature of the maps would still stand on its own. Sadly, JJ probably won't bother to tackle his version of connecting the MacGuffins either anyway, but there's always hope!
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Post by Jedan Archer on Dec 29, 2017 14:16:44 GMT
That's a great fanfic write up explanation. It's Wookieepedia quality. Unfortunately it does still leave 2 significant plot holes: (1) Why does R2D2 only turn on when Rey enters the room, and there's nowhere left for the story to go except complete the map and go find Luke? (2) How does former galactic senator, leader of the Resistance, and Luke Skywalker's sister not think to check R2D2 for the rest of the map? Even C3PO thought it was a bad idea to check R2D2 for the rest of the map! You know, the same C3PO who helped R2D2 throughout the entire story of ANH deliver secret plans... thinks it's a bad idea to check R2D2 for secret plans!Thanks, my little exercise was to fit how the whole " big map, little map" scenario could come to be, and you have to admit, it fits nice and snug. As far as the 2 unanswered questions, "What turned on R2?" and "Why didn't Leia search R2 for a map?" Those are real questions that may be left in the pile of unopened mystery boxes that are stacking up, Well, you obviously have put more brainpower into this than the makers of the film. You truly have proven worthy of a mention in the archives of the Jedi order, or at least the archives of the Whills.
But let me play devil's advocate here: Why would you need a MAP at all pointing directions in space (!), why not give coordinates (numbers) to find Luke? This is not how space travel or space charts (not "maps") work.
The entire premise of the two maps totally collapses under this simple practical reality alone.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Dec 29, 2017 14:17:04 GMT
That's a great fanfic write up explanation. It's Wookieepedia quality. Unfortunately it does still leave 2 significant plot holes: (1) Why does R2D2 only turn on when Rey enters the room, and there's nowhere left for the story to go except complete the map and go find Luke? (2) How does former galactic senator, leader of the Resistance, and Luke Skywalker's sister not think to check R2D2 for the rest of the map? Even C3PO thought it was a bad idea to check R2D2 for the rest of the map! You know, the same C3PO who helped R2D2 throughout the entire story of ANH deliver secret plans... thinks it's a bad idea to check R2D2 for secret plans!Thanks, my little exercise was to fit how the whole "big map, little map" scenario could come to be, and you have to admit, it fits nice and snug. As far as the 2 unanswered questions, "What turned on R2?" and "Why didn't Leia search R2 for a map?" Those are real questions that may be left in the pile of unopened mystery boxes that are stacking up, or if JJ wants to craft an answer for that, he can. But those will probably remain unopened and the explanation of the nature of the maps would still stand on its own. Sadly, JJ probably won't bother to tackle his version of connecting the MacGuffins either anyway, but there's always hope! It's still an incredibly great explanation. It sure makes the whole thing look a lot more plausible.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 14:40:53 GMT
Thanks, my little exercise was to fit how the whole " big map, little map" scenario could come to be, and you have to admit, it fits nice and snug. As far as the 2 unanswered questions, "What turned on R2?" and "Why didn't Leia search R2 for a map?" Those are real questions that may be left in the pile of unopened mystery boxes that are stacking up, Well, you obviously have put more brainpower into this than the makers of the film. You truly have proven worthy of a mention in the archives of the Jedi order, or at least the archives of the Whills.
But let me play devil's advocate here: Why would you need a MAP at all pointing directions in space (!), why not give coordinates (numbers) to find Luke? This is not how space travel or space charts (not "maps") work.
The entire premise of the two maps totally collapses under this simple practical reality alone.
LOL, he said practical reality.
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Post by Jedan Archer on Dec 29, 2017 15:27:08 GMT
Well, you obviously have put more brainpower into this than the makers of the film. You truly have proven worthy of a mention in the archives of the Jedi order, or at least the archives of the Whills.
But let me play devil's advocate here: Why would you need a MAP at all pointing directions in space (!), why not give coordinates (numbers) to find Luke? This is not how space travel or space charts (not "maps") work.
The entire premise of the two maps totally collapses under this simple practical reality alone.
LOL, he said practical reality. That's what he said.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 15:41:42 GMT
LOL, he said practical reality. That's what he said.
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