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Post by jammer81386 on Jan 3, 2018 20:04:58 GMT
Prior to the release of Rogue One there was a not insignificant faction of the audience claiming that it was anti-white. Which I thought it was quite silly. Still I avoided it entirely as I didn't want to have the issue in the back of my mind when first viewing the film. Because of this I generally try to avoid discussing the socio political aspects of the recent films. I don't mind the films having a political bent, even if it differs my own, nor do I have a problem with them targeting a demographic outside of mine. Thus I feel dwelling on the issue would only hamper my enjoyment of them. That said I have actually come to worry about how these political themes will affect the new films in the years to come. To be clear this a concern, not a criticism.
If you look back through the decades you will see other contemporary socio political themes in a variety of media. In the post 9/11 world many films had a strong pro-American sentiment (see Spiderman 3), in the early 90's there was a lot of environmental messages in entertainment(i.e. Ferngully, Captain Planet), in the 80's there was a focus on the War on Drugs(most cops movies of the day), and going back to the 50's you'll see elements of the Red Scare and fear of Nuclear War. While we don't look on these trends with any great level of disdain, they are generally seen as the political hype of the day. Something that could very well be said of the current films.
I think this is a problem for Star Wars in particular, as one of its strongest aspects is how timeless it has become. It has appealed to all generations in the 40+ years since it's initial release. Injecting themes of "female empowerment" and "minority representation" could cause the current films to fall victim to being dated in the future. Instead of being a timeless story, it is merely a product of the time. For all the criticisms the Prequel trilogy has had, being dated was not one of them.
Now to retort my own argument, there has been cases where films were political and have held up well throughout the years. Star Trek 4 is a good example, which is still seen as one of the better Trek films despite it having a blatant "Save the Whales" message. So it is entirely possible for a film to be political and have a long life span.
To reiterate, my concerns(again not criticism) have nothing to do with my personal socio political leanings. I have no problem with the new films aiming for a female/minority audience. My worry is how these new films will be viewed once the fervor of identity politics has passed. What made Star Wars a cultural phenomenon was its universality. It spoke to many generations across many cultures. Whereas, the Disney films could very well fit into late 2010's America.
Thanks for reading. To be clear, I am not here interested in discussing the actual politics of the Sequels trilogy. There are several other posts for doing that. I just want to know if anyone else feels as I do that these films could become dated as time goes on.
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syafiqjabar
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Post by syafiqjabar on Jan 4, 2018 2:12:20 GMT
Prior to the release of Rogue One there was a not insignificant faction of the audience claiming that it was anti-white. Which I thought it was quite silly. Still I avoided it entirely as I didn't want to have the issue in the back of my mind when first viewing the film. Because of this I generally try to avoid discussing the socio political aspects of the recent films. I don't mind the films having a political bent, even if it differs my own, nor do I have a problem with them targeting a demographic outside of mine. Thus I feel dwelling on the issue would only hamper my enjoyment of them. That said I have actually come to worry about how these political themes will affect the new films in the years to come. To be clear this a concern, not a criticism. If you look back through the decades you will see other contemporary socio political themes in a variety of media. In the post 9/11 world many films had a strong pro-American sentiment (see Spiderman 3), in the early 90's there was a lot of environmental messages in entertainment(i.e. Ferngully, Captain Planet), in the 80's there was a focus on the War on Drugs(most cops movies of the day), and going back to the 50's you'll see elements of the Red Scare and fear of Nuclear War. While we don't look on these trends with any great level of disdain, they are generally seen as the political hype of the day. Something that could very well be said of the current films. I think this is a problem for Star Wars in particular, as one of its strongest aspects is how timeless it has become. It has appealed to all generations in the 40+ years since it's initial release. Injecting themes of "female empowerment" and "minority representation" could cause the current films to fall victim to being dated in the future. Instead of being a timeless story, it is merely a product of the time. For all the criticisms the Prequel trilogy has had, being dated was not one of them. Now to retort my own argument, there has been cases where films were political and have held up well throughout the years. Star Trek 4 is a good example, which is still seen as one of the better Trek films despite it having a blatant "Save the Whales" message. So it is entirely possible for a film to be political and have a long life span. To reiterate, my concerns(again not criticism) have nothing to do with my personal socio political leanings. I have no problem with the new films aiming for a female/minority audience. My worry is how these new films will be viewed once the fervor of identity politics has passed. What made Star Wars a cultural phenomenon was its universality. It spoke to many generations across many cultures. Whereas, the Disney films could very well fit into late 2010's America. Thanks for reading. To be clear, I am not here interested in discussing the actual politics of the Sequels trilogy. There are several other posts for doing that. I just want to know if anyone else feels as I do that these films could become dated as time goes on. Or maybe in the future people will hopefully think it's normal to have a movie with non-white and non-male leads? The OT was not dated with its politics, inspired by the Vietnam War and what was seen as the weakening of Western Imperialism. Neither was the Prequels with the story of how democracy and religion was manipulated by people in power.
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medjay
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Post by medjay on Jan 4, 2018 5:13:24 GMT
Prior to the release of Rogue One there was a not insignificant faction of the audience claiming that it was anti-white. Which I thought it was quite silly. Still I avoided it entirely as I didn't want to have the issue in the back of my mind when first viewing the film. Because of this I generally try to avoid discussing the socio political aspects of the recent films. I don't mind the films having a political bent, even if it differs my own, nor do I have a problem with them targeting a demographic outside of mine. Thus I feel dwelling on the issue would only hamper my enjoyment of them. That said I have actually come to worry about how these political themes will affect the new films in the years to come. To be clear this a concern, not a criticism. If you look back through the decades you will see other contemporary socio political themes in a variety of media. In the post 9/11 world many films had a strong pro-American sentiment (see Spiderman 3), in the early 90's there was a lot of environmental messages in entertainment(i.e. Ferngully, Captain Planet), in the 80's there was a focus on the War on Drugs(most cops movies of the day), and going back to the 50's you'll see elements of the Red Scare and fear of Nuclear War. While we don't look on these trends with any great level of disdain, they are generally seen as the political hype of the day. Something that could very well be said of the current films. I think this is a problem for Star Wars in particular, as one of its strongest aspects is how timeless it has become. It has appealed to all generations in the 40+ years since it's initial release. Injecting themes of "female empowerment" and "minority representation" could cause the current films to fall victim to being dated in the future. Instead of being a timeless story, it is merely a product of the time. For all the criticisms the Prequel trilogy has had, being dated was not one of them. Now to retort my own argument, there has been cases where films were political and have held up well throughout the years. Star Trek 4 is a good example, which is still seen as one of the better Trek films despite it having a blatant "Save the Whales" message. So it is entirely possible for a film to be political and have a long life span. To reiterate, my concerns(again not criticism) have nothing to do with my personal socio political leanings. I have no problem with the new films aiming for a female/minority audience. My worry is how these new films will be viewed once the fervor of identity politics has passed. What made Star Wars a cultural phenomenon was its universality. It spoke to many generations across many cultures. Whereas, the Disney films could very well fit into late 2010's America. Thanks for reading. To be clear, I am not here interested in discussing the actual politics of the Sequels trilogy. There are several other posts for doing that. I just want to know if anyone else feels as I do that these films could become dated as time goes on. Or maybe in the future people will hopefully think it's normal to have a movie with non-white and non-male leads? The OT was not dated with its politics, inspired by the Vietnam War and what was seen as the weakening of Western Imperialism. Neither was the Prequels with the story of how democracy and religion was manipulated by people in power. You do know that The Rock and Denzel Washington are probably top 5 bankable actors way overrepresenting their demographic. Could had been inspired by the Reuűolutionary war just based on what was onscreen. If it was about Vietnam it was sloopy. Religion. Where did you get that?
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Jan 4, 2018 9:01:28 GMT
You have seen the cgi backgrounds in the prequels right? The Roger Rabbit character?
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Post by Jedan Archer on Jan 4, 2018 11:16:59 GMT
You have seen the cgi backgrounds in the prequels right? The Roger Rabbit character? Ah, the good old layman's prequel-CGI fallacy - thought this went extinct. Watch and learn.
May this increase your midi chlorian count, always.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvpMVirLsY0
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Post by Jedan Archer on Jan 4, 2018 11:51:18 GMT
I'm not sure if that will actually date the ST as this may become/be the norm for a very long time (mostly for commercial reasons) - and conversely this seems to rather date the old movies, especially A New Hope which is an all-white sausage fest.
I do not mind aganda or gender politics as long as they are not to the detriment of the writing. Furiosa in Fury Road was a explicitly feminist character who de facto took over the lead from Mad Max by being written well. Good effort.
- However, characters such as Rey in TFA are not feminist as they following men all the time. Rey was just written as a Mary Sue/Fanfic character (maybe for gender policies reasons to show girl power): She had every god mode, ad hoc power she needed to look good, she was better than the pros with everything and she got attention, hugs, missions and positions to an absurd and ridiculous degree. Bad amateurisch character writing.
- TLJ is written / de-sue-ifyed a bit more professionally in this regard. There are other problems though, instead of culminating character decisions in existing characters and giving them an actual arc/development, random female characters are thrown into the mix. E.g., cocktail dressing Vice-Admiral Hondo - that arc could have been given to a legacy character such as Leia or Admiral Ackbar (on his ship!). Or who exactly needed the Rose character spouting blatant, idiotic stereotypes seemingly written for 8 year olds and culminating in one of the most absurd, cynical and laughable last scene in recent memory. I want to push my fist through this lousy, beautiful film when thinking about this storyline.
I think in the end sloppy writing like this fuelled by whatever agendas hurt the films and the franchise.
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Jan 4, 2018 19:42:53 GMT
You have seen the cgi backgrounds in the prequels right? The Roger Rabbit character? Ah, the good old layman's prequel-CGI fallacy - thought this went extinct. Watch and learn.
May this increase your midi chlorian count, always.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvpMVirLsY0
<iframe width="10.600000000000023" height="6.899999999999977" style="position: absolute; width: 10.6px; height: 6.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 0px; top: 0px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_83022129"></iframe> <iframe width="10.600000000000023" height="6.899999999999977" style="position: absolute; width: 10.6px; height: 6.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 469px; top: -302px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_12858299"></iframe> <iframe width="10.600000000000023" height="6.899999999999977" style="position: absolute; width: 10.6px; height: 6.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 0px; top: -14px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_6606210"></iframe> <iframe width="10.600000000000023" height="6.899999999999977" style="position: absolute; width: 10.6px; height: 6.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 469px; top: -14px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_74622181"></iframe> Sorry, don't see the correlation here at all - the prequels could have x 1000 more miniature models & practical effects than all the other Star Wars films but that's completely irrelevant. What I was saying was that the horrible cgi backgrounds - e.g. anything Kamino / Dex's Midnight Diner - looked terrible, still look terrible and date the prequels more than anything else...
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Jan 4, 2018 20:06:03 GMT
If society gets even more SJW/communist, Star Trek and Star Wars sequels will be considered hate speech. It will become like Uncle Tom's Cabin, which was the anti-slavery book in its day, now it is seen as offensive to blacks.
The same thing has happened to Star Trek. The OS is now seen as too white, too male etc. Even by the late 80s it was starting to be ridiculed.
Star Wars was intended for a mostly white audience. Just as a Japanese movie features mostly Japanese people, ditto Mexican movies. But Star Wars was meant to be a multicultural foot in the door just as ST was, so instead of the traditional story where a society is under attack from a foreign enemy or an illness in the society (Hamlet, Dracula, War of the Worlds etc) the threat is the healthy establishment (white men). The anti-white propaganda grew with each movie. So in the first Obi Wan is the good old white man--but he dies. Then in the sequels he is shown to be a liar, and also a failed teacher. Han Solo cant save himself from a gangster. Luke needs to beg his father to save him from the Emperor.
The prequels are entirely about white failure and treachery.
If society becomes fragmented and more ethnically focused again, then Star Wars and Star Trek will probably just be seen as propaganda media and studied for its hostility to homogeneity. The most enduring works of literature have been those that sprang from a specific heritage--i.e. Greek drama or English plays. They have to reflect honesty and truth about Nature and human behavior.
The experiment with multicultural art is relatively new--only since the 1950s or so. It is not likely to endure if the veil of political correctness is lifted.
By contrast, Disney's earliest films are still fondly remembered.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Jan 4, 2018 20:15:25 GMT
No, but the shitty story will.
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Post by Jedan Archer on Jan 4, 2018 20:17:19 GMT
<iframe wi="10.600000000000023" height="6.899999999999977" style="position: absolute; width: 10.6px; height: 6.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 469px; top: -302px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_12858299"></iframe> <iframe width="10.600000000000023" height="6.899999999999977" style="position: absolute; width: 10.6px; height: 6.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 0px; top: -14px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_6606210"></iframe> <iframe width="10.600000000000023" height="6.899999999999977" style="position: absolute; width: 10.6px; height: 6.9px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 469px; top: -14px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_746221 Sorry, don't see the correlation here at all - the prequels could have x 1000 more miniature models & practical effects than all the other Star Wars films but that's completely irrelevant. What I was saying was that the horrible cgi backgrounds - e.g. anything Kamino / Dex's Midnight Diner - looked terrible, still look terrible and date the prequels more than anything else... Well, if you had bothered to watch the video I provided you would see that you made an ad absurdum argument. Try e.g. 2:30 in the video: Camino (outside and inside) as well as Dex's Diner were practical miniatures not CGI backgrounds (the Dax creature was obviously CGI). That's the background correlation. QED.
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Post by President Ackbar™ on Jan 4, 2018 20:25:05 GMT
Sorry, don't see the correlation here at all - the prequels could have x 1000 more miniature models & practical effects than all the other Star Wars films but that's completely irrelevant. What I was saying was that the horrible cgi backgrounds - e.g. anything Kamino / Dex's Midnight Diner - looked terrible, still look terrible and date the prequels more than anything else... Well, if you had bothered to watch the video I provided you would see that you made an ad absurdum argument. Try e.g. 2:30 in the video: Camino (outside and inside) as well as Dex's Diner were practical miniatures not CGI backgrounds (the Dax creature was obviously CGI). That's the background correlation. QED. ![https://i.imgur.com/oK8AHBd.gif](https://i.imgur.com/oK8AHBd.gif)
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Jan 4, 2018 22:21:18 GMT
Sorry, don't see the correlation here at all - the prequels could have x 1000 more miniature models & practical effects than all the other Star Wars films but that's completely irrelevant. What I was saying was that the horrible cgi backgrounds - e.g. anything Kamino / Dex's Midnight Diner - looked terrible, still look terrible and date the prequels more than anything else... Well, if you had bothered to watch the video I provided you would see that you made an ad absurdum argument. Try e.g. 2:30 in the video: Camino (outside and inside) as well as Dex's Diner were practical miniatures not CGI backgrounds (the Dax creature was obviously CGI). That's the background correlation. QED. Ha ha, come now - to be fair it might just be possible that's not the first time you've posted a link to that particular video now true? 😉 In any case I'm not interested in having a prequel bashing / defending debate but if you think that in any way negates what I was saying then I guess we're just on completely different wavelengths - e.g. the Kamino interior shot (~ 3:05 on that video) pretty much exemplifies what I was saying, making a glass tunnel for the actors to walk down has 0% impact on the fact that everything else is cgi'd around it. If you can't see that then you're arguing a different case from myself... In any case it's a shame there was no interior Dex's Diner there, I would like to have seen that! (btw: I meant to add - I love that you cited that video in particular with reference to the Dex's exterior, when it literally shows the green screen used for the, ahem, Background 😂)
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 4, 2018 22:51:27 GMT
I think throwing some strong roles to females and minorities is only political to people who are looking to be offended. The backlash reminds me of the black dude in Chasing Amy who reads Star Wars OT as white supremacy propaganda, only a. in reverse and b. you guys are actually serious.
As for actual politics, the Bush stuff in Revenge of the Sith is pretty 2005.
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Post by Jedan Archer on Jan 5, 2018 13:24:56 GMT
Well, if you had bothered to watch the video I provided you would see that you made an ad absurdum argument. Try e.g. 2:30 in the video: Camino (outside and inside) as well as Dex's Diner were practical miniatures not CGI backgrounds (the Dax creature was obviously CGI). That's the background correlation. QED. Ha ha, come now - to be fair it might just be possible that's not the first time you've posted a link to that particular video now true? 😉 In any case I'm not interested in having a prequel bashing / defending debate but if you think that in any way negates what I was saying then I guess we're just on completely different wavelengths - e.g. the Kamino interior shot (~ 3:05 on that video) pretty much exemplifies what I was saying, making a glass tunnel for the actors to walk down has 0% impact on the fact that everything else is cgi'd around it. If you can't see that then you're arguing a different case from myself... In any case it's a shame there was no interior Dex's Diner there, I would like to have seen that!(btw: I meant to add - I love that you cited that video in particular with reference to the Dex's exterior, when it literally shows the green screen used for the, ahem, Background 😂) The shifting of goalposts is strong with this one. You may go home and rethink your prequel hatred:
![](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hBmeC9hoy2o/Vsxnt9d19xI/AAAAAAAAjrI/MzKoEimHdYQ/s1600/OBI%2BAND%2BINVISIBLE%2BDEX.JPG)
4.bp.blogspot.com/-hBmeC9hoy2o/Vsxnt9d19xI/AAAAAAAAjrI/MzKoEimHdYQ/s1600/OBI%2BAND%2BINVISIBLE%2BDEX.JPG
![](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GxTDSaryC2A/UXyAByO__hI/AAAAAAAAPo0/Ywd-KLZFNkc/s1600/62.jpg) ![](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RokXmowroOg/UZ1oWxIf7cI/AAAAAAAAQYM/YOpNS2yX7Ts/s1600/6.jpg)
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Post by Midi-Chlorian_Count on Jan 5, 2018 14:45:55 GMT
Thanks for posting those Dex's interior shots 👍 There's no "shifting of goalposts" from me on here though - What happened is that you got yourself all flushed with anger replying to a post that said "I hate the prequels. They were all a complete load of cgi crap". Only inconvenient problem though is that post never existed in the first place - I made a comment specifically about cgi backgrounds as the OP had mentioned something about the prequels looking dated wasn't a criticism that had been made. Jumping on that and talking about practical effects / showing OT special effects is absolutely irrelevant to my post... Actually maybe slightly (unintentionally) relevant in that every prequel thing you have highlighted has indeed shown that backgrounds were all cgi'd.
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shinnickneth
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Post by shinnickneth on Jan 5, 2018 19:14:50 GMT
Unfortunately, it was more cost effective to film the cast on a stage than taking them out to the Red Woods in California (some of the few Star Wars scenes filmed in the U.S.) However, the background of the woods of Endor were filmed there in California.
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syafiqjabar
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Post by syafiqjabar on Mar 2, 2018 12:47:13 GMT
Or maybe in the future people will hopefully think it's normal to have a movie with non-white and non-male leads? The OT was not dated with its politics, inspired by the Vietnam War and what was seen as the weakening of Western Imperialism. Neither was the Prequels with the story of how democracy and religion was manipulated by people in power. You do know that The Rock and Denzel Washington are probably top 5 bankable actors way overrepresenting their demographic. Could had been inspired by the Reuűolutionary war just based on what was onscreen. If it was about Vietnam it was sloopy. Religion. Where did you get that? For some reason people think it is weird that a woman and a black man are the main characters of the ST. The Jedi claims they are an order of warrior monks but clearly they are way more involved politically, and they pretty much act contrary to their own teachings in the PT.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Mar 2, 2018 13:42:51 GMT
Fuck the Sequel Trilogy.
And double-fuck whatever hack garbage they have in the pipeline.
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Post by Waxer-n-boil on Mar 2, 2018 19:49:58 GMT
Ha ha, come now - to be fair it might just be possible that's not the first time you've posted a link to that particular video now true? 😉 In any case I'm not interested in having a prequel bashing / defending debate but if you think that in any way negates what I was saying then I guess we're just on completely different wavelengths - e.g. the Kamino interior shot (~ 3:05 on that video) pretty much exemplifies what I was saying, making a glass tunnel for the actors to walk down has 0% impact on the fact that everything else is cgi'd around it. If you can't see that then you're arguing a different case from myself... In any case it's a shame there was no interior Dex's Diner there, I would like to have seen that!(btw: I meant to add - I love that you cited that video in particular with reference to the Dex's exterior, when it literally shows the green screen used for the, ahem, Background 😂) The shifting of goalposts is strong with this one. You may go home and rethink your prequel hatred:
![](https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hBmeC9hoy2o/Vsxnt9d19xI/AAAAAAAAjrI/MzKoEimHdYQ/s1600/OBI%2BAND%2BINVISIBLE%2BDEX.JPG)
4.bp.blogspot.com/-hBmeC9hoy2o/Vsxnt9d19xI/AAAAAAAAjrI/MzKoEimHdYQ/s1600/OBI%2BAND%2BINVISIBLE%2BDEX.JPG
![](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GxTDSaryC2A/UXyAByO__hI/AAAAAAAAPo0/Ywd-KLZFNkc/s1600/62.jpg) ![](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RokXmowroOg/UZ1oWxIf7cI/AAAAAAAAQYM/YOpNS2yX7Ts/s1600/6.jpg)
2 mike drops in 1 thread! I believe Vader said it best: "Impressive! Most impressive!"
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Post by Jedan Archer on Mar 12, 2018 17:56:24 GMT
2 mike drops in 1 thread! I believe Vader said it best: "Impressive! Most impressive!" There's always a bigger fish.
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