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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 4, 2018 4:49:40 GMT
MCU fans here claim that I'm biased against MCU and never say anything positive about MCU, but that's false. I've said many times that Daredevil and Luke Cage aren't bad and even said that Iron Fist is better than what the reviews said.
Now this is another positive thread about MCU. While MCU has had plenty of awful villains, MCU has had 2 villains who aren't as bad. The Kingpin is the best MCU villain on TV. But the most likable villain in MCU is Adrian Toomes.
Toomes did the things he did not because he was trying to control or destroy the world (like Ultron or Thanos) and not because he was greedy (like Obadiah Stane), but because he was just trying to provide for his family, until Tony Stark's Damage Control team screwed him and took away his means of providing for his family. Toomes was unarmed, but Tony Stark's Damage Control team still pulled out their guns and threatened to shoot him. And after Toomes went to jail, he could've ratted out Peter to the other prisoners who wanted to know Spider-Man's identity, but Toomes protected Peter.
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Post by Skaathar on Jan 4, 2018 4:51:48 GMT
What I really want to hear from you is what you think the MCU does better than the DCEU. No franchise is perfect, and only a completely biased fanboy wouldn't be able to find something one studio doesn't do better than the other. So go ahead, tell me what things the MCU does better than the DCEU.
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Post by sdrew13163 on Jan 4, 2018 5:17:22 GMT
Loki is very likable. He's funny and has a certain swagger to him.
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Post by miike80 on Jan 4, 2018 8:43:31 GMT
Toomes is one of my favorites from the MCU as well
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Post by Nicko's Nose on Jan 4, 2018 9:00:39 GMT
and yet you still gave the movie 1/10... How positive!
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Post by dazz on Jan 4, 2018 10:54:56 GMT
Vulture isn't the most likeable he's possibly the most relatable or even sympathetic but he's not likable, you cant threaten to murder a 15 year old in cold blood knowing he's only 15 and him having not done something extreme and evil to you to justify such a threat and be likeable.
My choice is either Loki just because of how all his positive traits make him endearing even in his villainy or Bucky because Bucky in TWS was a villain but one being mind controlled and he is otherwise a good if damaged human being, theres no reason to hate Bucky because his misdeeds aren't on him as he didn't do them of his own free will so by default even as a super assassin Bucky is unhateable imo.
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Post by Larcen26 on Jan 4, 2018 15:35:38 GMT
Loki is the most charismatic. Toomes is the most relatable. Kingpin is the best acted and best characterization.
Kilgrave is the best combination of all the above criteria.
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Post by scabab on Jan 4, 2018 16:39:23 GMT
Probably Loki. He's not a full on villain anymore though I suppose.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jan 4, 2018 16:59:17 GMT
Loki and Kilgrave.
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Post by leesilm on Jan 4, 2018 17:20:55 GMT
I'd say Loki, though I agree- he's not entirely a villain, he's more like DC's Catwoman. (Swagger, cares about one of the superheroes even if it is reluctantly, personality to spare, devious, cunning, loved by the audience) I liked Hela, I mean she was evil and I couldn't wait to see her fall, but as a villain- I liked her. I might have liked Ronan, if he'd been allowed to have his backstory in there, and not just been a big, angry bigot.
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Post by politicidal on Jan 4, 2018 17:48:40 GMT
Obadiah Stane aka Iron Monger. Jeff Bridges' performance was perfectly charming and menacing. One of the more underrated villains to appear.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 17:53:39 GMT
Malekith. Cool man with a plan.
#teamcolden
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 5, 2018 3:02:29 GMT
Vulture isn't the most likeable he's possibly the most relatable or even sympathetic but he's not likable, you cant threaten to murder a 15 year old in cold blood knowing he's only 15 and him having not done something extreme and evil to you to justify such a threat and be likeable. My choice is either Loki just because of how all his positive traits make him endearing even in his villainy or Bucky because Bucky in TWS was a villain but one being mind controlled and he is otherwise a good if damaged human being, theres no reason to hate Bucky because his misdeeds aren't on him as he didn't do them of his own free will so by default even as a super assassin Bucky is unhateable imo. Bucky isn't likable at all. If he were good, then he would've turned himself in and not flee like the guilty criminal that he is.
Remember when O.J. was driving his white Bronco on the L.A. freeways and half the LAPD was following him? Well, when burglars and thieves see on TV, that half the LAPD is following O.J., that means they'll be able to commit crimes and not get caught because there are fewer cops to chase after them since most of the cops are following O.J.
Same with Cap and Bucky fleeing from the law. They force the law enforcement agencies to spend valuable manpower and resources trying to track them down. That means there are fewer cops to stop other criminals. So every crime that's committed while Cap and Bucky are on the run from the law, Cap and Bucky have to share partial blame for that because they're the reason that there are fewer cops to stop other criminals.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 5, 2018 3:06:06 GMT
Probably Loki. He's not a full on villain anymore though I suppose. So basically MCU copied Fox and made Loki not a full-on villain anymore, just like Fox made Magneto and Mystique not full-on villains anymore.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Jan 5, 2018 3:13:31 GMT
Obadiah Stane aka Iron Monger. Jeff Bridges' performance was perfectly charming and menacing. One of the more underrated villains to appear. "Tony Stark built one of these things in a cave with a box of scraps!" Stane was my favorite--he had the most menace and personality (havent seen Keaton's Vulture). However, I think Ultron was briefly sympathetic at the end when his last drone is left talking to the Vision. Of course they blew that moment with a quip.
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Post by Nicko's Nose on Jan 5, 2018 3:16:41 GMT
Probably Loki. He's not a full on villain anymore though I suppose. So basically MCU copied Fox and made Loki not a full-on villain anymore, just like Fox made Magneto and Mystique not full-on villains anymore. Yeah Fox invented not full-on villains.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2018 3:25:15 GMT
Vulture, Loki's the only one close. It it were Vulture vs. Iron Man, I would root for Toomes to give Stark a good ass kicking.
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Post by dazz on Jan 5, 2018 4:04:20 GMT
Probably Loki. He's not a full on villain anymore though I suppose. So basically MCU copied Fox and made Loki not a full-on villain anymore, just like Fox made Magneto and Mystique not full-on villains anymore. No because the turn with Loki began in Dark World which was 2014 the same year as DOFP where Mystique stopped being a full fledged villain and 2 years prior to Magneto finally making the turn to being good in Apocalypse, so it's hard for Marvel to copy Fox when Thor 2 was already finished filming prior to DOFP's release.
Also it's not copying shit from anyone else when villains turn to the good side and heroes becoming corrupt is a longstanding trope in comics, to say MCU ripped off Fox is like saying Fox ripped off Marvel by doing a Wolverine solo series of films.
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Post by dazz on Jan 5, 2018 4:26:07 GMT
Bucky isn't likable at all. If he were good, then he would've turned himself in and not flee like the guilty criminal that he is.
Remember when O.J. was driving his white Bronco on the L.A. freeways and half the LAPD was following him? Well, when burglars and thieves see on TV, that half the LAPD is following O.J., that means they'll be able to commit crimes and not get caught because there are fewer cops to chase after them since most of the cops are following O.J.
Same with Cap and Bucky fleeing from the law. They force the law enforcement agencies to spend valuable manpower and resources trying to track them down. That means there are fewer cops to stop other criminals. So every crime that's committed while Cap and Bucky are on the run from the law, Cap and Bucky have to share partial blame for that because they're the reason that there are fewer cops to stop other criminals.
Yes he is because he's a good person who has been mutilated both physically and mentally, experimented on for decades, had his whole world ripped from him, been forced to turn on not only the country he loved but the man he see's as a brother all whilst under extreme forms of brainwashing.
And no I don't remember that because A: I was 7 at the time & B: I'm not American so it didn't mean shit to us in the UK, also your comparison falls apart given outside the raid on Bucky's home we never see anyone other than Avengers putting any time of effort into finding Bucky or Cap later on, which given how when you see a "plot hole" you demand every detail be painstakingly explained in detail in the films you cannot now flip it an say that unseen events have to be happening on such a grand scale as to vilify these characters just to suit your anti Marvel hero perspective.
Also if that's the case then aren't both Superman & Batman even worse seeing how both cause millions to billions of $'s worth of damage, have caused a overwhelming tax on both local law enforcement and other emergency services, caused an extreme decrease in public perception of local leo's not to mention causing millions in damages to US military property?
I mean I'm just following your own logic here but I'm pretty sure you'll say blaming the DC heroes for that is asinine which I agree with but so is blaming the marvel ones fo their actions, it's also hypocritical to chastise one whilst turning a blind eye to another.
Also as usual I don't think you know what your talking about, in this thread you used the word likable, but that's a specific term and is not interchangeable with best, most interesting, strongest, relatable, sympathetic or entertaining, you say Vulture is the most likeable, a gun running thief and murderer who consciously threatens to murder children, who is supplying high tech weapons to local criminals there by making them more dangerous and causing huge tax on local as well as state even federal law enforcement resources, the exact same thing you chastise Bucky & Cap for but Cap & Bucky aren't aiding other criminals or threatening to murder children.
Vulture as played by Keaton is one of the more memorable and relatable even sympathetic villains in the MCU but he is in no way likeable, Bucky as a villain in TWS is because we saw the good man he was in CA:TFA and we see him being brainwashed and controlled as a weapon in CA:TWS there by making it impossible for a reasonable person to hold him accountable for his actions as TWS but the likableness of the character from TFA remains.
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Post by leesilm on Jan 5, 2018 4:46:26 GMT
So basically MCU copied Fox and made Loki not a full-on villain anymore, just like Fox made Magneto and Mystique not full-on villains anymore. Yeah Fox invented not full-on villains. I found the original comment interesting, considering that even in the actual comics, Loki is chaotic and, like Catwoman, isn't always 100% a villain, at all times. Heck, isn't Poison Ivy getting some semi-good guy story lines these days? A lot of so-called villains are turning out to be more grey-area and less outright bad guys. Of course, we also have good guys who aren't so squeaky clean anymore. Magneto was always a sympathetic villain, even if you could not agree with his methods and you find him a terrible person, there is still a part of you that feels for that 12yr old boy at the gates of a death camp, screaming out for his parents as they were torn from him. The new prequel/alt.timeline movies have just worked to make him a bit more sympathetic, to let him learn from his mistakes, and let him be a little less easy to totally write off. I think they want us to understand how you get stuff like Clint making 'a different call' with Natasha or someone setting up a suicide squad from life-long, violent criminals to do the dirty work of the shadowy government figures, and we do live in a world where the Devil has a show where he's a suave British dude with daddy issues and a loathing for liars, SyFy had a show about angels trying to possess human bodies and God abandoning the world, and what would happen if the Nazis and Japanese had won WWII and now split the US up between them. It is a time where it is becoming okay to question how far you have to go before you aren't redeemable, if villains can be rescued or even be understood, exploring how heroes can screw up or even commit acts that traditionally belong to the villain, and how so many people fall somewhere in the great space between Hero and Villain. I think this is a good trend for drama on the big screen.
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