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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 18, 2018 4:12:18 GMT
No, his daughter wouldn't know and wouldn't be proud of him. She's just a young child. Children are taught that people go to jail for doing bad things and nobody ever says to a child that someone went to jail because they did a good thing. From his daughter's point-of-view, Daddy went to jail before because he did a bad, bad thing and now he's out of jail. So then he goes to Germany, breaks the law, and gets his ass thrown in jail again. All his daughter is going to think is that Daddy did another bad, bad thing. The difference is that if Clint was killed on 1 of those missions, his family can collect the life insurance money and they can still be provided for. Getting his ass thrown in jail, the insurance isn't paying anything so his wife has to be the sole provider and caretaker for the children. Yes she does know, she knows he is Ant Man and she loves him for it, she doesn't even care when her step-dad is trying to catch Scott, she outright tells step-dad she hopes he cant catch her dad, and maybe she would as an adult hate her father for becoming a criminal again IF all she looked at is he got sent back to prison, but if she saw why she would likely understand why, and that ignores the fact that he's going to likely get cleared of his fugitive label as will the rest of them, your being purposely dense and annoying pack it in you troll.
As for Barton he is a long time spy who was one of his bosses top guys, a boss who does infact like and respect him, Clint would have cash stashed away just incase they had to go on the run and start a new life, Fury is still out there and likely would look out for them, even Tony would likely be keeping an eye out for them seeing how making sure they are financially ok is a drop in the bucket to him and Clint is infact a friend, your propose a worst case scenario but that worst case scenario does not exist in this situation, also worst case scenario going his wife can simply tell her story, single mother of Hawkeye from the Avengers left to fend for herself and their two kids, she'd easily make enough money for college for the kids, and it's not like the house would get repossessed.
Even on the run do you think Barton isn't capable of sending money to his family? please he's an elite top secret agent with the worlds top spy agency, doing that is nothing, and again Clint probably figured Cap was in the right and when they caught Zemo and stopped a army of Winter soldiers being unleashed Cap and the rest of them would be pardoned because they disobeyed faulty orders and prevented the biggest threat since Ultron, that's actually part of Zemo's plan that works, he set them up to come after him thinking they were stopping a global threat, but they weren't, and they all know it, every breach of protocol every broken law was done for nothing, their was no victory to be had, but they didn't know it.
Neither Scott Lang nor Clint Barton would get cleared or pardoned for their crimes. 1st, in order to even be considered for a pardon, Bucky would have to be found not guilty of any crimes. That's unlikely since there's a videotape of him brutally murdering the Starks. Even if his defense lawyer argued that he was under the control of HYDRA, at best that would only reduce the charges from 1st-degree murder to involuntary manslaughter.
2 people were brutally killed and there's clear evidence on videotape that Bucky killed them with his own hands. A jury would be hesitant to let someone off the hook for 2 such brutal killings. So both Scott Lang and Clint Barton would be charged with aiding and abetting and should consider themselves lucky if they don't get charged as accessories after the fact.
As for Barton sending money to his family while on the run, that's not happening either. When a fugitive is on the run from the law, guess what? The government is monitoring the family and any correspondence or packages that the family receives.
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Post by dazz on Jan 18, 2018 4:55:12 GMT
Yes she does know, she knows he is Ant Man and she loves him for it, she doesn't even care when her step-dad is trying to catch Scott, she outright tells step-dad she hopes he cant catch her dad, and maybe she would as an adult hate her father for becoming a criminal again IF all she looked at is he got sent back to prison, but if she saw why she would likely understand why, and that ignores the fact that he's going to likely get cleared of his fugitive label as will the rest of them, your being purposely dense and annoying pack it in you troll.
As for Barton he is a long time spy who was one of his bosses top guys, a boss who does infact like and respect him, Clint would have cash stashed away just incase they had to go on the run and start a new life, Fury is still out there and likely would look out for them, even Tony would likely be keeping an eye out for them seeing how making sure they are financially ok is a drop in the bucket to him and Clint is infact a friend, your propose a worst case scenario but that worst case scenario does not exist in this situation, also worst case scenario going his wife can simply tell her story, single mother of Hawkeye from the Avengers left to fend for herself and their two kids, she'd easily make enough money for college for the kids, and it's not like the house would get repossessed.
Even on the run do you think Barton isn't capable of sending money to his family? please he's an elite top secret agent with the worlds top spy agency, doing that is nothing, and again Clint probably figured Cap was in the right and when they caught Zemo and stopped a army of Winter soldiers being unleashed Cap and the rest of them would be pardoned because they disobeyed faulty orders and prevented the biggest threat since Ultron, that's actually part of Zemo's plan that works, he set them up to come after him thinking they were stopping a global threat, but they weren't, and they all know it, every breach of protocol every broken law was done for nothing, their was no victory to be had, but they didn't know it.
Neither Scott Lang nor Clint Barton would get cleared or pardoned for their crimes. 1st, in order to even be considered for a pardon, Bucky would have to be found not guilty of any crimes. That's unlikely since there's a videotape of him brutally murdering the Starks. Even if his defense lawyer argued that he was under the control of HYDRA, at best that would only reduce the charges from 1st-degree murder to involuntary manslaughter.
2 people were brutally killed and there's clear evidence on videotape that Bucky killed them with his own hands. A jury would be hesitant to let someone off the hook for 2 such brutal killings. So both Scott Lang and Clint Barton would be charged with aiding and abetting and should consider themselves lucky if they don't get charged as accessories after the fact.
As for Barton sending money to his family while on the run, that's not happening either. When a fugitive is on the run from the law, guess what? The government is monitoring the family and any correspondence or packages that the family receives.
And you overlook my point, it's not what is fact or not but what they perceived, they sided with Cap when they thought that Zemo was on a mission to unleash a team of Winter Soldiers onto the world, elite black op wet work specialist prior to being enhanced, which once done so were superior to even Bucky who is shown to be on par with Cap biologically and superior to him with the metal arm, they also knew nothing about the Stark killings so that played no part in their thinking, they believed they were going against the law to protect the world, which is part of Zemo's plan you simpleton.
Zemo made them fight, made Cap have to protect Bucky against the UN, Interpol and such, Cap went rogue because they thought a threat worth sacrificing to stop was on the way, but it wasn't which means there's no end result they can point to and justify their actions with, Zemo was never a global threat he played them which is his whole goal, he turned them against each other and turned the world on half of them.
Also yes Bucky if given a fair trial would be either pardoned or found not guilty based on the fact he had no choice, you cannot convict someone over actions they had no choice in carrying out, he had no free will and he was physically mutilated and experimented on whilst under hydra's control, so long as he was perceived to no longer be a threat, so once they rid him off his programming he would be a free man, and whether proof still exist is debatable, you never know if the data was lost during the fight that broke out at the end of CW, the proof of that specific hit maybe lost for all we know.
And yes Clint could get money to his family, as they have established Shield trains their people better than anyone else, and Barton was one of their elite operatives, he knows how to get around surveillance and stuff, would the family be monitored? maybe if anyone knew where they were, but not one outside of the Avengers & Fury do or that they are his family, plus even if they did Barton knows how to work around things, like I said he has allies out their that can in fact help him, Fury, Hill hell any Shield agent can act as go betweens and no one could prove it.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 18, 2018 11:10:12 GMT
Ah yes, Tony Stark did say that the Avengers don't take any jobs that are below their pay grade. Thanks to the Accords restricting them, yes.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Jan 18, 2018 18:25:31 GMT
You think the Bartons' wouldn't have some secret stash of cash left to look after them if anything happened to Clint that insurance companies wouldn't pay off on? Ah yes, Tony Stark did say that the Avengers don't take any jobs that are below their pay grade. So the Avengers only help the rich and wealthy, and the Avengers are probably paid very well for their services by their rich and wealthy clients. Then by all accounts, they shouldn't have been in Sokovia if you wanna go by your logic.
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Post by scabab on Jan 19, 2018 6:37:29 GMT
Ok so I locked this temporarily because it had gone so far off track.
I removed a whole slew of posts, mostly ones that involved bringing up the DCEU or other movies merely due to being overly defensive over the threads subject matter, escalating posts to do with people's views on sexual harassment and the odd comment about Civil War.
So we'll try again. This thread had absolutely nothing to do with the DCEU so there's no need to bring it up.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 19, 2018 8:00:48 GMT
Neither Scott Lang nor Clint Barton would get cleared or pardoned for their crimes. 1st, in order to even be considered for a pardon, Bucky would have to be found not guilty of any crimes. That's unlikely since there's a videotape of him brutally murdering the Starks. Even if his defense lawyer argued that he was under the control of HYDRA, at best that would only reduce the charges from 1st-degree murder to involuntary manslaughter.
2 people were brutally killed and there's clear evidence on videotape that Bucky killed them with his own hands. A jury would be hesitant to let someone off the hook for 2 such brutal killings. So both Scott Lang and Clint Barton would be charged with aiding and abetting and should consider themselves lucky if they don't get charged as accessories after the fact.
As for Barton sending money to his family while on the run, that's not happening either. When a fugitive is on the run from the law, guess what? The government is monitoring the family and any correspondence or packages that the family receives.
yes Bucky if given a fair trial would be either pardoned or found not guilty based on the fact he had no choice, you cannot convict someone over actions they had no choice in carrying out, he had no free will and he was physically mutilated and experimented on whilst under hydra's control, so long as he was perceived to no longer be a threat, so once they rid him off his programming he would be a free man
No, Bucky wouldn't be pardoned or found not guilty.
2 people were brutally murdered. Juries need to hold someone accountable for those murders. Since they can't hold HYDRA accountable for those murders, they're going to hold Bucky accountable.
1st, Bucky might've gotten away with it if, the moment he got free of HYDRA, he turned himself in. But Bucky didn't turn himself in. So from a jury's point-of-view, 2 people were brutally murdered by Bucky's hands and Bucky didn't feel any remorse or responsibility for his part in the murders. A jury isn't going to feel inclined to let Bucky get away with 2 murders when Bucky expressed no remorse nor responsibility for his part in the murders.
2nd, the "I was under someone else's control" defense doesn't work. Patty Hearst's lawyers tried that and it didn't work. The "I was physically mutilated" defense doesn't work either. Many a jury has heard a defendant on trial for a violent crime claim that he was the victim of abuse when he was young. While that is tragic, it doesn't excuse what the defendant did. And most juries don't let that a defendant off for that excuse. So Bucky won't get away with 2 murders by using that excuse.
Like I said before, the best-case scenario for Bucky is a jury might feel enough sympathy for him to convict him of a lesser charge, such as manslaughter as opposed to 1st-degree murder. But no jury is going to let Bucky get away with 2 brutal murders simply because he uses the "I was brainwashed" defense, which has never worked.
And with Bucky getting convicted for the homicides of Howard and Maria Stark, Scott Lang and Clint Barton would be convicted of aiding and abetting and obstruction of justice. So it was stupid and illogical for Scott Lang and Clint Barton to abandon their children and go to Germany and break the law and get their asses thrown in jail.
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Post by dazz on Jan 19, 2018 14:32:45 GMT
yes Bucky if given a fair trial would be either pardoned or found not guilty based on the fact he had no choice, you cannot convict someone over actions they had no choice in carrying out, he had no free will and he was physically mutilated and experimented on whilst under hydra's control, so long as he was perceived to no longer be a threat, so once they rid him off his programming he would be a free man
No, Bucky wouldn't be pardoned or found not guilty.
2 people were brutally murdered. Juries need to hold someone accountable for those murders. Since they can't hold HYDRA accountable for those murders, they're going to hold Bucky accountable.
1st, Bucky might've gotten away with it if, the moment he got free of HYDRA, he turned himself in. But Bucky didn't turn himself in. So from a jury's point-of-view, 2 people were brutally murdered by Bucky's hands and Bucky didn't feel any remorse or responsibility for his part in the murders. A jury isn't going to feel inclined to let Bucky get away with 2 murders when Bucky expressed no remorse nor responsibility for his part in the murders.
2nd, the "I was under someone else's control" defense doesn't work. Patty Hearst's lawyers tried that and it didn't work. The "I was physically mutilated" defense doesn't work either. Many a jury has heard a defendant on trial for a violent crime claim that he was the victim of abuse when he was young. While that is tragic, it doesn't excuse what the defendant did. And most juries don't let that a defendant off for that excuse. So Bucky won't get away with 2 murders by using that excuse.
Like I said before, the best-case scenario for Bucky is a jury might feel enough sympathy for him to convict him of a lesser charge, such as manslaughter as opposed to 1st-degree murder. But no jury is going to let Bucky get away with 2 brutal murders simply because he uses the "I was brainwashed" defense, which has never worked.
And with Bucky getting convicted for the homicides of Howard and Maria Stark, Scott Lang and Clint Barton would be convicted of aiding and abetting and obstruction of justice. So it was stupid and illogical for Scott Lang and Clint Barton to abandon their children and go to Germany and break the law and get their asses thrown in jail.
You cannot use a real life example from almost 50 years ago as an example, the "brainwashing" used in the real world pales to the brainwashing used in the films on Bucky, Bucky's values and personality weren't altered they were physically blocked out leaving him a breathing weapon with no actual say in his actions, they wipe or reset him repeatedly, hell he doesn't even have full cognitive recall of his past as the Winter Soldier because those memories are also overwritten to stop him from recounting all the blood on his hand and possibly even brainwashed having his conscience build up enough for him to resist.
Also bad example to use given Hearst was ultimately pardoned, years later admittedly but she was infact pardoned, you add in much severer and provable form of brainwashing, the fact Bucky is also like Cap a national hero from WW2, he has Cap and most of the Avengers backing him as well a T'Challa the man whose murder Bucky was framed for all backing him up, there would be a very strong case of Bucky not being found guilty or being pardoned.
Keep in mind Bucky actually had no choice this isn't a theoretical argument dummy it is shown Bucky had no choice, he's also the victim of 70 years of brainwashing and torture, he has spent 2/3's of his life used as a weapon and being experimented on no one in their right mind would find him guilty, hence why you would you fucking mental case.
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Post by DC-Fan on Jan 21, 2018 20:35:08 GMT
Ultron didn't know where the Barton residence was, only Fury and Widow knew of it's location outside the family so Ultron couldn't find them That's a really weak argument. Imaging if in 2010, the US intelligence agencies said "We've been searching for bin laden for over 9 years and we haven't found him yet. So we're never going to find him." Just because they hadn't found bin Laden in over 9 years doesn't mean they could never find him. Likewise, just because Ultron hadn't found Hawkeye's home yet doesn't mean Ultron could never find it. Ultron could've found Hawkeye's home any time so it was stupid and illogical for Hawkeye to take the Avengers to his home and put his wife and children at risk.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 21, 2018 20:36:21 GMT
Ultron didn't know where the Barton residence was, only Fury and Widow knew of it's location outside the family so Ultron couldn't find them That's a really weak argument. Imaging if in 2010, the US intelligence agencies said "We've been searching for bin laden for over 9 years and we haven't found him yet. So we're never going to find him." They weren't going to hide forever, just needed time to regroup. If they did nothing, then Ultron would've killed everyone anyways. Including the Bartons.
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Post by sostie on Jan 22, 2018 0:35:28 GMT
I recently started a thread titled "Most likable villain in MCU". This thread is for the Most despicable "hero" in MCU. Here's my list of the top 7 Most despicable "heroes" in MCU: 7. Scott Lang / Ant-ManIn Ant-Man, after he gets out of jail, Scott Lang says he wants to become a hero so his daughter can be proud of her ex-con dad. Isn't that basically Deadshot's motivation in Suicide Squad? He is helping Captain America & The Winter Soldier to escape so they can prevent the other Super Soldiers being released. Also he would be against the Sokovia Accords because it would reveal his identity and put his family in danger If that was the case why was he so eager for Stark to NOT know his identity in Civil War? God forbid anyone try and make a super hero fallible. They lived "off the grid". It was the safest place to go in short time. The alternate option? Hide somewhere they may be found, Ultron wins, world ends, family dies As with Ant-Man he is helping Captain America & The Winter Soldier to escape so they can prevent the other Super Soldiers being released. Also he would be against the Sokovia Accords because it would reveal his identity and put his family in danger Or maybe they shouldn't have ordered numerous soldiers to chase and trap him in the university, attack his girlfriend and tear gas him, knowing full well what he was capable of becoming. "Basically tells". What EXACTLY does she say? Might not be the first time your recollection is wrong. It's not like Batman for instance would result to threats or blackmail. Oh wait, doesn't he agree to keep what Amanda Waller done quiet in return for info on meta humans. That's Amanda Waller the most despicable character in DCEU and worse than any in MCU She is helping Captain America & The Winter Soldier to escape so they can prevent the other Super Soldiers being released. You really have problems understanding what goes on on screen don't you. That would be the girlfriend that doesn't live in his house. And do you honestly think no one, let alone any sort of super villain wouldn't already know where he lives? Well duh! You just explained the whole reason why Iron Man became Iron Man and why he doesn't hand over the suits. It's the basis of his origin. It's all on screen...yet you can't grasp it and need it all spoon fed to you. Or you didn't watch the film ? Where the hell did you get the idea that someone needs authorization or permission from a world leader to build a robot (this was a really unintentionally funny one, way funnier than your usual standard) Lazy!!! You really have NOT seen the film have you. Stole! How do you steel a rank. It was given to him Seriously though. Watch the films before your post You. Are. Hilarious. He wouldn't have been tried in the USA. The US Constitution would mean fuck all in another country. It is patently obvious that a) you haven't seen most of these films b) you haven't understood the ones you have seen c) you have little idea how some things actually work in the real world d) have little grasp of stroytelling/film making e) as a DCEU fan you are oblivious the hypocrisy you are displaying On all points nothing out of character then
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Post by dazz on Jan 22, 2018 5:24:57 GMT
Ultron didn't know where the Barton residence was, only Fury and Widow knew of it's location outside the family so Ultron couldn't find them That's a really weak argument. Imaging if in 2010, the US intelligence agencies said "We've been searching for bin laden for over 9 years and we haven't found him yet. So we're never going to find him." Just because they hadn't found bin Laden in over 9 years doesn't mean they could never find him. Likewise, just because Ultron hadn't found Hawkeye's home yet doesn't mean Ultron could never find it. Ultron could've found Hawkeye's home any time so it was stupid and illogical for Hawkeye to take the Avengers to his home and put his wife and children at risk. Actually it was perfectly logical as it was the only location available to them that was both secure and off the books meaning Ultron had no way of finding them, Ultron's intelligence comes from his ability to absorb data at an exponential rate via the internet, but the Barton's home was wasn't on the books their was no data for him to absorb to uncover it's location, Ultron is not a deductive genius as shown through the entire film he's unbalanced, his knowledge may be higher than anyone else's but his intellect is not so ge isn't going to Sherlock the location out of nothingness, and like I said the only other way for him to find them is if he always knew their location which he wouldnt wait on destroying them he'd take them out asap because there is no point in letting them regroup.
Also it's not illogical it's actually perfectly logical, Ultron's aim is to wipe out humanity this includes the Barton's, so staying away at a much more likely discoverable location is the illogical move because if they cannot regroup they cannot fight back properly and Ultron is more likely to win, which means Hawkeye's family is dead, staying away to protect them in that instant wouldn't be logical it would be a pointless emotion decision, going home to a unknown and there for un-uncoverable location in an isolated area there by making it away from any cctv again reducing any chance of Ultron just discovering them.
You once again use words you do not understand.
Also the Bin Laden comparison is retarded, Bin Laden was looked for by not only going through data but questioning new sources and collecting new intel, there was neither Ultron could do to find the Barton's, only 2 people outside the family knew their location Widow & Fury, Widow was with them and Fury was presumed dead, any other piece of intel had been scrubbed which means there was no way of Ultron learning of the location.
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