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Post by CrepedCrusader on Jan 18, 2018 19:21:30 GMT
The fact that the OT was about an empire based on the Nazis who felt that they were the "master race" (i.e. humans) who fought against a rebellion many of whose members were oppressed minorities (i.e. aliens), and the fact that some believe that Palpatine's rise to power in the PT was at least partly inspired by the Bush 43 administration, didn't clue you in to the fact that Star Wars was always a liberal story?
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ryboto
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Post by ryboto on Jan 18, 2018 19:25:57 GMT
But the story wasn't sacrificed for the sake of the political similarities.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 19:30:33 GMT
Uh...no, it didn't. Because when dealing with the political scale in Europe, Fascism is on the right and Communism is on the left. Those are not the poles of American politics and liberals do not (at least openly and for the most part), affiliate themselves with Communism. So since the movie was American-made and released to an American audience, we all just thought it was more a (loose) anti-Fascist story and saw it more through the anti-Fascist/pro-Democracy lens than a conservative vs. liberal lens.
But this is the problem with people lobbing words like "Fascist" around as if it doesn't have an actual meaning.
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Post by Jedan Archer on Jan 18, 2018 20:45:31 GMT
The master race concept was never in the films, but in the EU books. The Emperor did not look human too, but alien. Palpatine's rise according to Lucas was (very remotely) inspired by historic examples such as Hitler '33, or J Caesar and Napoleon Bonaparte and other dictators. The only link to Bush was "You are either with me or my enemy" in III. Apart from that, the only sociopolitical agenda in the Lucas 6 was that they included blacks an other races in the OT after SW was a merely white sausage fest, and maybe a silly Vietnam reference with the Endor battle. The PT followed that example.
But unlike with the ST these things were never at the forefront: Things like "The Force is female" direction (as the only visible direction except for rehash) are preposterous. This is just not how the Force works.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 22:08:50 GMT
It's become too easy to juxtapose classic good vs. evil or freedom vs. tyranny motifs into the political perspective du jour. It's like people forgot that there were hundreds of other tyrants besides Hitler. Or, for that matter, that Hitler was an actual racist who fried Jews alive in furnaces because they were Jewish.
The hyperbole has gotten out of control in general. Our collective ability to properly put things in perspective has diminished beyond my wildest imaginings.
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Post by mcufan on Jan 19, 2018 9:56:07 GMT
It's become too easy to juxtapose classic good vs. evil or freedom vs. tyranny motifs into the political perspective du jour. It's like people forgot that there were hundreds of other tyrants besides Hitler. Or, for that matter, that Hitler was an actual racist who fried Jews alive in furnaces because they were Jewish. The hyperbole has gotten out of control in general. Our collective ability to properly put things in perspective has diminished beyond my wildest imaginings. For once i agree with you. That's a first...
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Post by syafiqjabar on Jan 20, 2018 9:22:03 GMT
But unlike with the ST these things were never at the forefront: Things like "The Force is female" direction (as the only visible direction except for rehash) are preposterous. This is just not how the Force works. You're right, being liberal and politically correct is stupid because when a politically correct liberal read this criticism of TLJ you just posted they are NOT going to unload an entire AR-15 magazine point blank into your stomach (allegedly the most painful way to die via firearms).
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jan 20, 2018 12:16:19 GMT
I could do with a little less pandering politically and more interesting story telling with interesting characters.
Unfortunately that's not what we've been getting with the Sequel trilogy (so far, still got one film left)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2018 17:50:01 GMT
But unlike with the ST these things were never at the forefront: Things like "The Force is female" direction (as the only visible direction except for rehash) are preposterous. This is just not how the Force works. You're right, being liberal and politically correct is stupid because when a politically correct liberal read this criticism of TLJ you just posted they are NOT going to unload an entire AR-15 magazine point blank into your stomach (allegedly the most painful way to die via firearms).
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Post by darkpast on Jan 20, 2018 18:00:50 GMT
TLJ was the only Disney SW film that overtly too liberal, the others were a bit more subtle
That's not to say that KK and crew didn't push these agendas off screen, they did.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2018 18:48:04 GMT
TLJ was the only Disney SW film that overtly too liberal, the others were a bit more subtle That's not to say that KK and crew didn't push these agendas off screen, they did. I didn't think any of the previous films had liberal themes. I realize there's the very small reference to Bush in the PT, but that's not liberal per se, that's just anti-Bush. What was a subtle, liberal reference in the OT or PT? I find this hard to believe considering how much liberalism has changed since the 2000s, not to mention that it is almost unrecognizable in its current form compared to the 70s/80s. Agree, though, TLJ is rife with liberal shaming. Which is a shame. It'd be nice to have something everyone can enjoy instead of catering to political perspectives.
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Post by sdrew13163 on Jan 20, 2018 19:21:23 GMT
The OT and PT had subtle messages and a subtle political commentary in the background. TLJ was very obvious and preachy with a forced message.
That's why it has worked before, but didn't work this time.
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Post by formersamhmd on Jan 21, 2018 2:55:57 GMT
The OT and PT had subtle messages and a subtle political commentary in the background. Eh....subtle, Star Wars is not. Never has been.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 3:00:06 GMT
The OT and PT had subtle messages and a subtle political commentary in the background. TLJ was very obvious and preachy with a forced message. That's why it has worked before, but didn't work this time. The words "subtle" and "Star Wars" do not belong in the same sentence together.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 21, 2018 7:22:25 GMT
Thank you. People talk about feminism? Leia's behavior during Luke and Han's clumsy rescue is honestly more "girl power!" than anything with Rey. Not to mention the rebel leaders basically amount to Mon Mothna and Leia while the Empire is an all-white sausage party. TFA actually diversified the "Empire" with Phasma and Finn, but the ST is the one saying all white men are evil. Go figure.
Speaking of Rey the Mary Sue, I'd love to see her get elected queen at age 14 through sheer awesomeness like Padme.
Oh, and forced diversity? Hate to break it to people, but the ewok and gungan cultures kind of symbolize something (besides selling out, of course). Remember when the white human oppressors get on their knees and beg for their help? That bothers people less than the mere existence of an Asian girl? Okay.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 15:26:22 GMT
Thank you. People talk about feminism? Leia's behavior during Luke and Han's clumsy rescue is honestly more "girl power!" than anything with Rey. Ah, but there is a major difference. I have no problem with girl power, in fact, I applaud it. But in the OT, Leia's heroism doesn't come at the expense of the male characters. Their failures are situational and she capitalizes. They are also shown to have the top moments of heroism later in the film, so this point is totally invalid. Wrong. Leia isn't even anywhere in the top 5 of the command chain in ANH. Mothma doesn't even make an appearance. The Alliance, as far as what we are shown in ANH, is also a "white sausage fest." Generals Willard and Dodonna, Gold and Red Leaders: all white men. Even when Mothma hits the scene late in the trilogy, she's still white. There was no diversity in the original trilogy PERIOD. That has nothing to do with its political messages (or in this case, total lack thereof) and instead reflects the lack of diversity in Hollywood during the time period in which it was made. Wrong again. Finn heroically and immediately rejects the FO in TFA thereby immediately annihilating any association the audience may have that a black man is being portrayed as a villain. His backstory then goes on to further reinforce this. This is also false. Padme was not elected for sheer awesomeness. She was elected because was a member of one of the elder families on Naboo. Plain and simple. Which, of course is the exact opposite of a liberal theme (and mimics Leia's own rise to power through royal pedigree, but proves her worth in battle motif). The Ewoks symbolized toy sales, nothing more. Everyone knows that. The only other valid point about the Ewoks is that they served as a surprise element to Palpatine's seemingly invincible power of foresight. As the Gungans, I suggest you go back and watch the scene again where the group of multiracial humans bow and apologize to them. Also, no one (being taken seriously on this board) is complaining about Rose because she's Asian. Those of us making legit gripes about the character are doing so because the character sucked. She would have sucked as a white male, too.
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 22, 2018 0:11:17 GMT
Ah, but there is a major difference. I have no problem with girl power, in fact, I applaud it. But in the OT, Leia's heroism doesn't come at the expense of the male characters. Their failures are situational and she capitalizes. That last sentence is a bit contradictory. Either way...her heroism does come at Luke and Han's expense. She snatches Han's blaster and says "Someone has to save our skins!" and basically rescues her rescuers. If Rey did that, the theater screen would have been blotted out with fedoras. And yeah, ultimately Luke has the biggest heroic moment later in the film....same as in The Last Jedi... The guys you mention are grunts. I'm talking about their political leaders, which we come to find out are Mon Mothna, Bail Organa (dead before we even meet him to make room for his daughter, thanks to anti-white male agendas no doubt), and Leia. -Wookiepedia. Btw, she was elected to a second term as well as senator all by age 24. Eat your heart out, Rey. It has been straight up said that the ewoks represent the Vietnamese (which would mean the Empire is the US, which is as hippie liberal a stance you can take). But the indigenous, superstitious, and ritualistic forest creatures fighting off high-tech, colonizing invaders really need no spoken analog. Oh yeah, forgot about Padme's token. That doesn't really change the message of the scene, though.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2018 0:16:40 GMT
I have never found Star Wars to be liberal.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2018 4:06:03 GMT
Ah, but there is a major difference. I have no problem with girl power, in fact, I applaud it. But in the OT, Leia's heroism doesn't come at the expense of the male characters. Their failures are situational and she capitalizes. That last sentence is a bit contradictory. Either way...her heroism does come at Luke and Han's expense. She snatches Han's blaster and says "Someone has to save our skins!" and basically rescues her rescuers. If Rey did that, the theater screen would have been blotted out with fedoras. And yeah, ultimately Luke has the biggest heroic moment later in the film....same as in The Last Jedi... The guys you mention are grunts. I'm talking about their political leaders, which we come to find out are Mon Mothna, Bail Organa (dead before we even meet him to make room for his daughter, thanks to anti-white male agendas no doubt), and Leia. -Wookiepedia. Btw, she was elected to a second term as well as senator all by age 24. Eat your heart out, Rey. It has been straight up said that the ewoks represent the Vietnamese (which would mean the Empire is the US, which is as hippie liberal a stance you can take). But the indigenous, superstitious, and ritualistic forest creatures fighting off high-tech, colonizing invaders really need no spoken analog. Oh yeah, forgot about Padme's token. That doesn't really change the message of the scene, though. Regarding Padme, in a Legends book I read, she was from an elder family. Clearly that has changed since Disney bought out the franchise. Point conceded. Canon is as Canon does. Lucas said the Ewoks represented the Vietnamese?
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Post by moviebuffbrad on Jan 22, 2018 4:30:48 GMT
That last sentence is a bit contradictory. Either way...her heroism does come at Luke and Han's expense. She snatches Han's blaster and says "Someone has to save our skins!" and basically rescues her rescuers. If Rey did that, the theater screen would have been blotted out with fedoras. And yeah, ultimately Luke has the biggest heroic moment later in the film....same as in The Last Jedi... The guys you mention are grunts. I'm talking about their political leaders, which we come to find out are Mon Mothna, Bail Organa (dead before we even meet him to make room for his daughter, thanks to anti-white male agendas no doubt), and Leia. -Wookiepedia. Btw, she was elected to a second term as well as senator all by age 24. Eat your heart out, Rey. It has been straight up said that the ewoks represent the Vietnamese (which would mean the Empire is the US, which is as hippie liberal a stance you can take). But the indigenous, superstitious, and ritualistic forest creatures fighting off high-tech, colonizing invaders really need no spoken analog. Oh yeah, forgot about Padme's token. That doesn't really change the message of the scene, though. Regarding Padme, in a Legends book I read, she was from an elder family. Clearly that has changed since Disney bought out the franchise. Point conceded. Canon is as Canon does. Lucas said the Ewoks represented the Vietnamese? I remember reading the stuff Wookiepedia says in the novelizations of The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, or stuff like it. Either way, they're what I was basing my prior comments on. In the audio commentary for Return of the Jedi, yep. In fact, apparently the Vietnam stuff goes even further than I thought. Apparently Star Wars was conceived as one third of an anti-war Vietnam trilogy along with American Graffiti and Apocalypse Now (before FFC took over as director). nypost.com/2014/09/21/how-star-wars-was-secretly-george-lucas-protest-of-vietnam/ So the Empire represented Anerica and the rebels the Viet Cong from the start. The liberal is strong in this.
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