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Post by gadreel on Jan 25, 2018 17:56:56 GMT
You can spin it any way you want, but God™ set up the system, God™ refuses to intervene. By Gods™ inaction he sends people to an eternity of punishment after one attempt at being good. If you believe in a hell I cannot fathom how you can claim that God™ is benevolent. he doesn't refuse to intervene. Dangit I was pulled in...Back to He does according to Wintersuicides stated theology.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 25, 2018 18:00:54 GMT
he doesn't refuse to intervene. Dangit I was pulled in...Back to He does according to Wintersuicides stated theology. That's fine, I didn't know who I was disagreeing with.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 18:03:06 GMT
I think that you've likely been misunderstanding the philosophy that you've been reading. The secular philosophers who assert that free will exists essentially agree with my views, it's just that they want to label deterministic choice making as 'free will'. Which philosophers are you referencing in particular, so I may bone up on the best arguments in favour of free will (and that is to say the libertarian paradigm that act as a foundation for your religious faith, not compatibilist free will)? No, I very much understand what I'm reading. I just don't agree with your conclusions. Have you managed to remember the names of any of those philosophers, yet?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 18:26:58 GMT
he doesn't refuse to intervene. Dangit I was pulled in...Back to He does according to Wintersuicides stated theology. False.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 18:30:07 GMT
He does according to Wintersuicides stated theology. That's fine, I didn't know who I was disagreeing with. No, don't listen to that guy. I've been fairly consistent with my biblical message. But you know how it is with these folks; you say something like "God is allowing Satan to do his thing for a finite amount of time" and they then leap buildings a la Morpheus and conclude that what you just said is that God does nothing. So far, I've met one honest atheist on this board. The rest are either willful liars or poor readers.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 25, 2018 18:30:37 GMT
He does according to Wintersuicides stated theology. False. Is "God chooses not to stop it from happening." not the same as refusing to intervene?
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Post by gadreel on Jan 25, 2018 18:31:27 GMT
That's fine, I didn't know who I was disagreeing with. No, don't listen to that guy. I've been fairly consistent with my biblical message. But you know how it is with these folks; you say something like "God is allowing Satan to do his thing for a finite amount of time" and they then leap buildings a la Morpheus and conclude that what you just said is that God does nothing. So far, I've met one honest atheist on this board. The rest are either willful liars or poor readers. I am not an Atheist, and I have treated you with dignity, I would expect the same thing in return.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 25, 2018 18:37:32 GMT
Is "God chooses not to stop it from happening." not the same as refusing to intervene? Assuming there's a place of eternal torture (There isn't but for thematic purposes of the thread, I'll pretend since it doesn't matter regarding salvation...), the only way to stop it from happening would be: Removing the choice from the subjects Adapting his standards to work against his standards. The former is a possibility if God wanted toys I guess, the latter is not possible at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 18:41:15 GMT
No, don't listen to that guy. I've been fairly consistent with my biblical message. But you know how it is with these folks; you say something like "God is allowing Satan to do his thing for a finite amount of time" and they then leap buildings a la Morpheus and conclude that what you just said is that God does nothing. So far, I've met one honest atheist on this board. The rest are either willful liars or poor readers. I am not an Atheist, and I have treated you with dignity, I would expect the same thing in return. I retract my statement about you. Although alleging that I am spinning is not what I would call a kind offering, I'll admit: I mixed you up with one of the other half dozen posters who descended on me the moment I started posting. So I am sorry. You did, however, completely mangle my actual words into a meaning that was false. And you're smart enough to know the difference between what I said and what you attributed to me. I would hope you'd consider it dignified to cease doing that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 18:42:38 GMT
Is "God chooses not to stop it from happening." not the same as refusing to intervene? No, they are not the same. When I advise my child to not touch the stove, I don't cut his hand off or lock him in his room or abolish stoves in my house in order to prevent him from doing it.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 25, 2018 18:44:04 GMT
Is "God chooses not to stop it from happening." not the same as refusing to intervene? Assuming there's a place of eternal torture (There isn't but for thematic purposes of the thread, I'll pretend since it doesn't matter regarding salvation...), the only way to stop it from happening would be: Removing the choice from the subjects Adapting his standards to work against his standards. The former is a possibility if God wanted toys I guess, the latter is not possible at all. Or to have never set it up that way to begin with, which is seems to me is what we both think is the case.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 18:45:39 GMT
I claim it because he has been nothing but benevolent to me and because I am not going to that hell that I can perfectly fathom. God set up the system. You got that part right. He routinely intervenes, which is....how the Bible came into existence. So you're wrong there. He is benevolent to you, but for the thousands of people who break his laws, or even do not believe in him (depending on where you lie in your theology), he will send them to an everlasting hell because they would not make a leap of faith. I cannot reconcile that with benevolence, sorry. That's up to you, but the scriptures say that it's not much of a leap of faith to accept God's truth. The scriptures say that nature itself makes it obvious. The only leaping done in faith is the leap against our own, rebellious nature, a nature we inherited from our father the devil.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 25, 2018 18:48:02 GMT
Is "God chooses not to stop it from happening." not the same as refusing to intervene? No, they are not the same. When I advise my child to not touch the stove, I don't cut his hand off or lock him in his room or abolish stoves in my house in order to prevent him from doing it. I do not see the equivalency, God has the power to stop people from going to hell, if I had the power to stop my child from getting hurt I would. You say that God chooses not to stop it (people going to hell) happening, I do not see how that is different from refusing to intervene in the matter of going to hell. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then God knows that a certain number of people are going to hell, by allowing hell to continue he is not intervening and chosing to not stop it from happening, I cannot reconcile that with a benevolent God. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I do not believe in the doctrine of eternal punishment.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 25, 2018 18:49:02 GMT
He is benevolent to you, but for the thousands of people who break his laws, or even do not believe in him (depending on where you lie in your theology), he will send them to an everlasting hell because they would not make a leap of faith. I cannot reconcile that with benevolence, sorry. That's up to you, but the scriptures say that it's not much of a leap of faith to accept God's truth. The scriptures say that nature itself makes it obvious. The only leaping done in faith is the leap against our own, rebellious nature, a nature we inherited from our father the devil. I thought God was our father, Satan is his creation, at best Satan would be our brother surely?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 18:55:38 GMT
No, they are not the same. When I advise my child to not touch the stove, I don't cut his hand off or lock him in his room or abolish stoves in my house in order to prevent him from doing it. I do not see the equivalency, God has the power to stop people from going to hell, if I had the power to stop my child from getting hurt I would. You say that God chooses not to stop it (people going to hell) happening, I do not see how that is different from refusing to intervene in the matter of going to hell. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then God knows that a certain number of people are going to hell, by allowing hell to continue he is not intervening and chosing to not stop it from happening, I cannot reconcile that with a benevolent God. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I do not believe in the doctrine of eternal punishment.Then why argue the point with me? Surely you've sussed this all out before. As for me, I cannot understand why someone doesn't think that the Lake of Fire as described in Revelation is an eternal place of punishment, but that's just me. For the record: I'm not really interested in debating that. I've sussed it out. I've heard the "God is not a benevolent god if he sends people to hell" argument a million times. Also for the record: whereas I don't believe that God "sends people to hell," and whereas I do believe he allows it to happen (while he intervenes and seeks to change their hearts from going into this fate), I will state this, just so we can get away from semantics: I think that if God does send souls to hell for eternal punishment, he is still benevolent. After all, it's what I deserve, it's what you deserve and it's what Mother Theresa deserved. We all deserve eternal punishment in hell and so any god who enforces what is righteous and just is a benevolent god in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2018 18:56:50 GMT
That's up to you, but the scriptures say that it's not much of a leap of faith to accept God's truth. The scriptures say that nature itself makes it obvious. The only leaping done in faith is the leap against our own, rebellious nature, a nature we inherited from our father the devil. I thought God was our father, Satan is his creation, at best Satan would be our brother surely? Again, I refer to the text, wherein he is referred to as our father. My message is consistent and is purely based on the scriptures.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 25, 2018 19:01:18 GMT
I do not see the equivalency, God has the power to stop people from going to hell, if I had the power to stop my child from getting hurt I would. You say that God chooses not to stop it (people going to hell) happening, I do not see how that is different from refusing to intervene in the matter of going to hell. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then God knows that a certain number of people are going to hell, by allowing hell to continue he is not intervening and chosing to not stop it from happening, I cannot reconcile that with a benevolent God. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I do not believe in the doctrine of eternal punishment.Then why argue the point with me? Surely you've sussed this all out before. As for me, I cannot understand why someone doesn't think that the Lake of Fire as described in Revelation is an eternal place of punishment, but that's just me. For the record: I'm not really interested in debating that. I've sussed it out. I've heard the "God is not a benevolent god if he sends people to hell" argument a million times. Also for the record: whereas I don't believe that God "sends people to hell," and whereas I do believe he allows it to happen (while he intervenes and seeks to change their hearts from going into this fate), I will state this, just so we can get away from semantics: I think that if God does send souls to hell for eternal punishment, he is still benevolent. After all, it's what I deserve, it's what you deserve and it's what Mother Theresa deserved. We all deserve eternal punishment in hell and so any god who enforces what is righteous and just is a benevolent god in my opinion. I am 'arguing' the point with you because you made it on a public discussion board and I an here to discuss points of theology. I may not believe what you believe, but I am genuinely interested in what you believe, and you may end up making a point that forces me to examine or even modify a stance I hold. Sorry, if you felt you were being taken for a ride, I was actually interested in your point of view. I must confess I find your acceptance of eternal punishment and characterisation of God as benevolent irreconcilable, and I have not been convinced by your statements, but that is the joy of discussion, sometimes we are just presented with views that we cannot agree with. Again, sorry if you felt you were being taken for a ride.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 25, 2018 19:39:46 GMT
Assuming there's a place of eternal torture (There isn't but for thematic purposes of the thread, I'll pretend since it doesn't matter regarding salvation...), the only way to stop it from happening would be: Removing the choice from the subjects Adapting his standards to work against his standards. The former is a possibility if God wanted toys I guess, the latter is not possible at all. Or to have never set it up that way to begin with, which is seems to me is what we both think is the case. Well, unless we are discussing off script fan fiction, he did set it up that way. God has standards that don't waver. He gives others, both angels and humans, the freedom to decide their own choices. Living up to his standards leads to one outcome while the other doesn't. There are pros and cons to both choices, but obviously the preferred choice would be the one your creator would want since, if just for selfish reasons, that's the one that will protect you. It's silly to argue things as if this is a board game and we are just pieces in it.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 25, 2018 19:42:45 GMT
Or to have never set it up that way to begin with, which is seems to me is what we both think is the case. Well, unless we are discussing off script fan fiction, he did set it up that way. God has standards that don't waver. He gives others, both angels and humans, the freedom to decide their own choices. Living up to his standards leads to one outcome while the other doesn't. There are pros and cons to both choices, but obviously the preferred choice would be the one your creator would want since, if just for selfish reasons, that's the one that will protect you. It's silly to argue things as if this is a board game and we are just pieces in it. Do you or do you not believe that there is a place of eternal torture?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 25, 2018 19:53:42 GMT
Well, unless we are discussing off script fan fiction, he did set it up that way. God has standards that don't waver. He gives others, both angels and humans, the freedom to decide their own choices. Living up to his standards leads to one outcome while the other doesn't. There are pros and cons to both choices, but obviously the preferred choice would be the one your creator would want since, if just for selfish reasons, that's the one that will protect you. It's silly to argue things as if this is a board game and we are just pieces in it. Do you or do you not believe that there is a place of eternal torture? of course not. But I do believe in death and death is a perfectly fair & sufficient outcome.
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