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Post by Isapop on Jan 20, 2018 14:00:42 GMT
Erm....sorry....must have missed something........where does God fit into this scenario? ...except maybe for the word 'parable' and its religious connotations. Apart from that what does God have to do with this? I'd better explain. As a parable (in the Biblical sense), it's meant to show us something about God. It started when Vegas (on his own thread) asked, "Who Is The Real Villain In The Bible?" Then he answered, "Satan, stupid". And to that, I responded: "How do you figure?
This is Satan: "I am going to mislead as many as I can away from God."
This is God: "I'll go ahead and let Satan mislead as many as he can, and punish everyone he deceives."
It's not at all clear that Satan is worse than God."
And so, to take the prejudicial labels like "God" and "Satan" away from the question, I offered this parable about jealousy and a seductive deceiver and punishment. The question about who the real villain is, or who is worse than who is much more debatable now. And I personally think that the husband (God) comes off the worst. (And I added something to the parable. Check it and see if it affects your opinion of things.)
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Post by Vegas on Jan 20, 2018 14:06:08 GMT
It probably has more to do with His role as "Creator Of The Entire Fucking Universe and All Life In It" than just being more superior... like he's just a kid that is picking on ants. OK, so you're defining God's "superiority" as unlimited power. And that's why God is therefore exempted from a possible charge of villainy? There's an old expression for that: "Might makes right". And for quite some time it's been roundly dismissed as an immoral formulation.
Btw, Vegas, I'm going to add one other circumstance to my parable. (I should have thought of it earlier because it fits the subject and has significance in judging everyone in it.) The husband (me) can eliminate Vargas from the scene if he choses to, but still let's Vargas go after his wife.
As far as "might makes right" thing goes , you skipped answering this question: Another problem:
Using a punishment that isn't really the norm for said crime.
Let's say that it two different country's and the wife (a super spy that is the pride of the USA) is a person who was seduced into committing treason... a crime that has always been to be considered punishable by death...
Let's say that she was seduced into helping 9/11... and was caught.
Is the USA a villain for executing her?
That's the other problem with your parable.... God will get rid of Vargas... eventually.
Also... THE WIFE IS STILL ALIVE. THE WIFE REPRESNTS HUMANITY AS A WHOLE.. AND HUMANTY IS STILL HERE.
(Or, at least, you are still in the middle of the story, where the wife is still alive)
It's more like Vargas is claiming that your wife is far better off with him... So you let her be with Vargas... for a few thousand years... to prove him wrong.
After that time goes by... Then you act: You kill Vargas - who turns out to not only be a shitty spouse, but also a child abuser.. the wife, who died because Vargas didn't have the might - that thing that you are crying about - to keep her alive. You gather all of her children... the ones that want to go with you... You don't force them to... Might doesn't really make right, right?.. and you and them go off to live happily ever after... LITERALLY.
THE END.
Who's the villain again?
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Post by phludowin on Jan 20, 2018 14:09:48 GMT
In this parable, who is the villain? You. |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 20, 2018 14:25:45 GMT
OK, so you're defining God's "superiority" as unlimited power. And that's why God is therefore exempted from a possible charge of villainy? There's an old expression for that: "Might makes right". And for quite some time it's been roundly dismissed as an immoral formulation.
Btw, Vegas, I'm going to add one other circumstance to my parable. (I should have thought of it earlier because it fits the subject and has significance in judging everyone in it.) The husband (me) can eliminate Vargas from the scene if he choses to, but still let's Vargas go after his wife.
As far as "might makes right" thing goes , you skipped answering this question: Another problem:
Using a punishment that isn't really the norm for said crime.
Let's say that it two different country's and the wife (a super spy that is the pride of the USA) is a person who was seduced into committing treason... a crime that has always been to be considered punishable by death...
Let's say that she was seduced into helping 9/11... and was caught.
Is the USA a villain for executing her?
That's the other problem with your parable.... God will get rid of Vargas... eventually.
Also... THE WIFE IS STILL ALIVE. THE WIFE REPRESNTS HUMANITY AS A WHOLE.. AND HUMANTY IS STILL HERE.
It's more like Vargas is claiming that your wife is far better off with him... So you let her be with Vargas... for a few thousand years... to prove him wrong.
After that time goes by... Then you act: You kill Vargas - who turns out to not only be a shitty spouse, but also a child abuser.. the wife, who died because Vargas didn't have the might - that thing that you are crying about - to keep her alive. You gather all of her children... the ones that want to go with you... You don't force them to... Might doesn't really make right, right?.. and you and them go off to live happily ever after... LITERALLY.
THE END.
Who's the villain again?
She's not alive once I punish her. And the same goes for the countless number who are destroyed by God's decree come Armageddon time. (And who all might have been saved if Satan had been disposed of before he had the chance to mislead them.) You think all those deaths don't count as punishment just because the human species will still exist? Tell that to those people just before they and their children go splat.
As for your 9/11 scenario, are you asking me if someone who participates in mass murder deserves to die? Then yes. And if that's not your point, then just tell me plainly what your point is rather make me try to figure it out from your example. (Sorry to be blunt, but your Die Hard comparison shows that you're pretty sloppy when it comes to making analogies.)
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Post by Vegas on Jan 20, 2018 14:59:28 GMT
That's kinds the point, ain't it? All of the death and misery in the world comes from The Devil and his luring Adam & Eve away from being loyal to God. And, just for the record, God doesn't shoot them for cheating on Him... They die of old age. And, once again, those that die in Armageddon are ones that supposedly choose not to be on the side of God... I don't have to tell them.. apparently, at that time, they'll already know. You can't get rid of all of the death and misery in the world without getting rid of those who choose a life of death and misery.. and before that, it's just whiney snots complaining that "Why does God get to set the rules in the universe that He created?" Really, Moe?... Because:
"You think all those deaths don't count as punishment just because the human species will still exist? Tell that to those people just before they and their children go splat." YOU ARE LITERALLY CALLING GOD THE BAD GUY FOR KILLING PEOPLE THAT CHOOSE TO DO - AND BE ON THE SIDE OF - EVIL.... WHILE SAVING THOSE THAT DON'T. Sure.... That's a lot of people........but.... Having a high body count (like McClane) doesn't automatically make you the bad guy in the story. Analogies only seem sloppy when you're too blinded by slop to see them. |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 20, 2018 17:10:03 GMT
And just for the record, I haven't been talking about those who die of old age.BINGO! They are ones metaphorically shot in the head. (But I expect you know that's who I'm talking about.)And when you say those who "choose not to be on the side of God" you include the countless people who were misled by Satan into belonging to your average church, because they thought God would approve.Except they'll find out when as the ax is about to come down, when it's all too late for them, when vanquishing the "deceiver" can't do them any good. |
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Post by Vegas on Jan 20, 2018 17:25:52 GMT
At this point, nothing you are saying actually counters anything that I said, so I'll just call it quits here before things start to get too personal. 
How much time they have to realize that they are making the wrong choice isn't really clear.. So I can't defend its length, one way or the other. I'll just ask... What if your assumption is wrong?.. What if there is more time than you think there is? What if they do get to make an informed decision? Just think about it.. and write your answer on a sheet of paper... and shove it up your a-- oops. I said I was leaving before it got personal.  |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 20, 2018 18:30:30 GMT
At this point, nothing you are saying actually counters anything that I said, so I'll just call it quits here before things start to get too personal.
How much time they have to realize that they are making the wrong choice isn't really clear.. So I can't defend its length, one way or the other. I'll just ask... What if your assumption is wrong?.. What if there is more time than you think there is? What if they do get to make an informed decision? Just think about it.. and write your answer on a sheet of paper... and shove it up your a-- oops. I said I was leaving before it got personal. Doesn't matter if it happens next month or in a hundred years. All those misled people alive at that time get slaughtered by a "loving and just God". Like if God gets rid of Satan first, and then lets everyone know how to please him before time is up? That would put a whole new complexion on the matter. Let me know when that idea starts getting taught. (That'll be a "cold day in hell", since everyone could then afford to wait for that signal from God and not guess about which church is the right one. And a church looking for recruits won't get them if they don't teach that there's a urgency to join up. |
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Post by Vegas on Jan 20, 2018 18:41:47 GMT
Like if God gets rid of Satan first, and then lets everyone know how to please him before time is up? That would put a whole new complexion on the matter. It kind of already is.... After the "righteous and the unrighteous" are resurrected... and, it's not really stated that those who die in Armageddon aren't in that number (It's just kinda assumed that they're not) Satan is done away with for "a thousand years" and... Aw fuck it! I already said I was out.
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Post by goz on Jan 21, 2018 1:51:27 GMT
She didn't go to bed with him. Not in this particular case. But I don't know how many times I have to say that this doesn't matter. I'll say it once more : It doesn't matter. You are cheating the first time you do something that you wouldn't do if your partner/spouse was watching you do it. Yes. Of course not. That's exactly why I said the shooter in this scenario did something vastly more wrong than anybody else. If she had actually had sex with the guy... and then gone on to have sex with a thousand other guys... shooting her would still be hideously immoral. So, in your mind, thinking about the possibility of cheating...is cheating? |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 21, 2018 9:31:06 GMT
Like if God gets rid of Satan first, and then lets everyone know how to please him before time is up? That would put a whole new complexion on the matter. It kind of already is.... After the "righteous and the unrighteous" are resurrected... and, it's not really stated that those who die in Armageddon aren't in that number (It's just kinda assumed that they're not) Satan is done away with for "a thousand years" and... Aw fuck it! I already said I was out.
Describing what happens after Armageddon has got nothing to do with all those countless people we're talking about, the ones who are currently being misled into their eternal destruction during the coming "great tribulation" (climaxing with Armageddon). So, getting rid of Satan to give those people a chance without his influence is not "kind of already" being taught. (And the Watchtower does state that those people don't get resurrected. It's not just "kinda assumed".)
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Post by Vegas on Jan 21, 2018 10:25:37 GMT
Describing what happens after Armageddon has got nothing to do with all those countless people we're talking about, the ones who are currently being misled into their eternal destruction during the coming "great tribulation" (climaxing with Armageddon). So, getting rid of Satan to give those people a chance without his influence is not "kind of already" being taught.
I was referring to after Armageddon and not those that that die in it... but what you were describing does happen in The Bible does happen... so it doesn't really apply to them.. That's why I used the phrase "kind of" and not "exactly". I am referring to any religion that actually reads the story, and doesn't just do the "Awl gud peepul goes to Hevun wen dey die! Derp!" Pulling out the "But The Watchtower says..." bullsht doesn't really affect me... I don't care how they.. or any religious group... specifically define the story. I read any story for myself... and the story doesn't say that they aren't counted among the "unrighteous" that get resurrected... but, I will state that it would be kind silly to kill everyone in Armageddon just to turn around and bring them back. AND VEGAS DOES STATE that if the story is that everybody comes back into a Satan-free world for a chance of redemption than those who die at Armageddon should have that same opportunity... but, VEGAS also knows that what THE STORY THAT VEGAS IS READING doesn't really go into too much detail how much those that die in Armageddon are actually aware of the Divine nature of what is transpiring. It can go either way. So, what I'm not going to do is just assume that it's all just soooo unfair and cry like a little bitch about it... You should try doing that.  |
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Post by Isapop on Jan 21, 2018 11:17:43 GMT
So, what I'm not going to do is just assume that it's all just soooo unfair and cry like a little bitch about it... You should try doing that. "Cry like a little bitch" What a stupid characterization. Pointing out, in a forum created to discuss such matters, that the divinely decreed slaughtering of billions of people who have been conned by Satan's designs is irreconcilable with the idea that God is "loving and just" is not crying. It is showing why such a scenario does not deserve to be believed.
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Post by Marv on Jan 21, 2018 11:47:59 GMT
You. You are the villain. A wife is not a possession.
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Post by phludowin on Jan 21, 2018 13:18:36 GMT
You're cheating as soon as you do something that you wouldn't do if your spouse was watching you. Good thing I'm single. Otherwise I'd be cheating everytime I went to take a dump. |
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Post by cupcakes on Jan 21, 2018 15:03:06 GMT
tpfkar And, just for the record, God doesn't shoot them for cheating on Him... They die of old age. Yeah, being purposely inflicted with a continuous shriveling painful enervating deterioration is so much better.
reduced time |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 18:16:46 GMT
Not in this particular case. But I don't know how many times I have to say that this doesn't matter. I'll say it once more : It doesn't matter. You are cheating the first time you do something that you wouldn't do if your partner/spouse was watching you do it. Yes. Of course not. That's exactly why I said the shooter in this scenario did something vastly more wrong than anybody else. If she had actually had sex with the guy... and then gone on to have sex with a thousand other guys... shooting her would still be hideously immoral. So, in your mind, thinking about the possibility of cheating...is cheating? I said you're cheating as soon as you do something that you wouldn't do if your spouse was watching. Would you think about the possibility of cheating in front of your spouse? I'd say it would depend on what it was that you were thinking. |
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Post by cupcakes on Jan 22, 2018 12:09:02 GMT
tpfkar You. You broke two laws. They didn't break any. This is one problem with this parable. Everyone in the story is an equal... representing a God who isn't considered our equal. Another problem: Using a punishment that isn't really the norm for said crime. Let's say that it two different country's and the wife (a super spy that is the pride of the USA) is a person who was seduced into committing treason... a crime that has always been to be considered punishable by death... Let's say that she was seduced into helping 9/11... and was caught. Is the USA a villain for executing her? If it's all gratuitous savage theater for the pervert Strongman's prurient sanguinary titillation, of course He's the villain.
No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the LORD. |
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Post by phludowin on Jan 22, 2018 12:38:47 GMT
So, in your mind, thinking about the possibility of cheating...is cheating? I said you're cheating as soon as you do something that you wouldn't do if your spouse was watching. And as I said before in my example about taking a dump: I believe this opinion is full of shit. Literally. If two people in a couple have an understanding about having an open relationship, like having time to themselves from time to time; as long as they don't tell their partner about it, then their extramarital affairs are not cheating. Cheating means: Breaking the rules. If one rule is: You can sleep around as long as you don't tell me about it, then no rules were broken. But part of the rules is that the primary partner isn't watching. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2018 20:43:07 GMT
I said you're cheating as soon as you do something that you wouldn't do if your spouse was watching. And as I said before in my example about taking a dump: I believe this opinion is full of shit. Literally. Then on this point we disagree. Sure, if people have arrangement - open marriage, whatever - then whatever they've agreed goes. But I've been talking about regular monogamous marriages. |
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