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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2018 19:15:45 GMT
Judas went to hell because Judas never received salvation. Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 30, 2018 19:30:10 GMT
He didn’t “go” anywhere. There’s not biblical example of anyone dying ever going to hell, and very few examples of anyone going to heaven. At best, one can surmise that he simply died, and will eventually be resurrected (to judgment) just like most other people.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2018 20:33:17 GMT
He didn’t “go” anywhere. There’s not biblical example of anyone dying ever going to hell, and very few examples of anyone going to heaven. At best, one can surmise that he simply died, and will eventually be resurrected (to judgment) just like most other people. What about Lazarus' rich man?
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Post by politicidal on Jan 31, 2018 2:35:47 GMT
Officially, it seems like Hell. But if the purported Gospel of Judas is to be taken seriously, perhaps first Limbo as a slap on the wrist?
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Post by kls on Jan 31, 2018 8:37:05 GMT
I can't see eternal punishment for someone who was a tool in God's plan for our salvation being fulfilled. It really wouldn't be just to damn someone for that.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Jan 31, 2018 8:47:29 GMT
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jan 31, 2018 11:46:50 GMT
He's dead
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 31, 2018 12:21:49 GMT
He didn’t “go” anywhere. There’s not biblical example of anyone dying ever going to hell, and very few examples of anyone going to heaven. At best, one can surmise that he simply died, and will eventually be resurrected (to judgment) just like most other people. What about Lazarus' rich man? What about it? That was a parable, not a literal account. It was a story Jesus told to illustrate a point about how man (in general), and perhaps rich men (more specifically) should live their lives under the guidance of the prophets (scripture) and that riches on earth redeem no one. While those who struggle on earth in this life may be rewarded with greater riches in the next. But it’s not an account of something that actually happened, nor is it literal in its use of language. It’s symbolic, and it doesn’t inform upon a literal afterlife (which scripture does talk about in contradictory ways in other passages).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 15:14:10 GMT
What about Lazarus' rich man? What about it? That was a parable, not a literal account. It was a story Jesus told to illustrate a point about how man (in general), and perhaps rich men (more specifically) should live their lives under the guidance of the prophets (scripture) and that riches on earth redeem no one. While those who struggle on earth in this life may be rewarded with greater riches in the next. But it’s not an account of something that actually happened, nor is it literal in its use of language. It’s symbolic, and it doesn’t inform upon a literal afterlife (which scripture does talk about in contradictory ways in other passages). Assuming it is, it would be awfully misleading for Jesus to misrepresent the fate of souls and the nature of hell within said parable. Acts 2:27 is definitive and certainly not a parable.
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 31, 2018 16:44:23 GMT
What about it? That was a parable, not a literal account. It was a story Jesus told to illustrate a point about how man (in general), and perhaps rich men (more specifically) should live their lives under the guidance of the prophets (scripture) and that riches on earth redeem no one. While those who struggle on earth in this life may be rewarded with greater riches in the next. But it’s not an account of something that actually happened, nor is it literal in its use of language. It’s symbolic, and it doesn’t inform upon a literal afterlife (which scripture does talk about in contradictory ways in other passages). Assuming it is, it would be awfully misleading for Jesus to misrepresent the fate of souls and the nature of hell within said parable. Matthew 7:3-5 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Is Jesus misrepresenting the nature of hypocrisy in the above verse? Does every hypocrite have a literal plank in their eye? Or is it figurative language he is using, with “plank” being symbolic of a moral failing or problem in general? That’s true, but it also doesn’t say anything about the nature of the afterlife at all. Read the same verse again in the NIV translation, or the NASB, or the ESV, or any translation other than the King James. Because the word he’ll used in the KJV (which is what you are referring to) has nothing to do with the afterlife. It is a reference to Hades, which is Greek for abode of the dead (where everyone goes). It is the equivalent to the Hebrew term Sheol (also translated as hell by the King James), which does not denote an afterlife at all.
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 31, 2018 16:50:22 GMT
@winterssuicide
Here’s one for your consideration.
Matthew 5:29-30 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Is Jesus actually advising his disciples that if they tear their eyes out, and cut off their limbs they can save their souls from hell? Yes or no?
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Post by Cody™ on Jan 31, 2018 16:54:12 GMT
Well John 17:12 gives us an insight.
“While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.” John 17:12
In context the one doomed to destruction is obviously a reference to Judas. So if he's not already in hell, it's certainly where he looks destined to end up.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 17:08:57 GMT
@winterssuicide Here’s one for your consideration. Matthew 5:29-30 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. Is Jesus actually advising his disciples that if they tear their eyes out, and cut off their limbs they can save their souls from hell? Yes or no? Look closer. He seems to be indicating something about an afterlife.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 17:14:25 GMT
I can't see eternal punishment for someone who was a tool in God's plan for our salvation being fulfilled. It really wouldn't be just to damn someone for that. But he wasn't a tool in God's plan. God's plan wraps around human choice. God's plan also evolves.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 17:22:47 GMT
Assuming it is, it would be awfully misleading for Jesus to misrepresent the fate of souls and the nature of hell within said parable. Matthew 7:3-5 3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Is Jesus misrepresenting the nature of hypocrisy in the above verse? Does every hypocrite have a literal plank in their eye? Or is it figurative language he is using, with “plank” being symbolic of a moral failing or problem in general? That's a ridiculous comparison, though, sorry. Clearly one contains hyperbole and is worded to reference two distinguishing measurements in order to prove a point, while the other is an intricate description of both a.) a place that truly exist per other scripture and b.) people who also truly existed per scripture. To be certain, scripture indicates that there is one place referred to as "hell," which, as you've indicated, correlates to "Hades" and "Sheol," and then it indicates there is a completely different place called "The Lake of Fire." Are you suggesting then that the place mentioned in the rich man text is referring to this Lake of Fire instead?
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Post by gadreel on Jan 31, 2018 18:05:47 GMT
I can't see eternal punishment for someone who was a tool in God's plan for our salvation being fulfilled. It really wouldn't be just to damn someone for that. But he wasn't a tool in God's plan. God's plan wraps around human choice. God's plan also evolves. Why would Gods™ plan evolve? I thought you believed he was omniscient and omnipotent living outside of time. If that is the case then he knows what is going to happen before it happens and cannot be surprised by anything, in fact before everything started, if those attributes are true, then God™ would have everything perfectly planned to the last detail until the end of creation, what could possibly make him need to revise his plan?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 18:11:57 GMT
But he wasn't a tool in God's plan. God's plan wraps around human choice. God's plan also evolves. Why would Gods™ plan evolve? I thought you believed he was omniscient and omnipotent living outside of time. If that is the case then he knows what is going to happen before it happens and cannot be surprised by anything, in fact before everything started, if those attributes are true, then God™ would have everything perfectly planned to the last detail until the end of creation, what could possibly make him need to revise his plan? As previously stated, God's plan is intertwined around the free will of his creations. God's ability to consider, reconsider or act is timeless, as He is timeless. As to what entices Him to reconsider, it is His chief emotion - love - that occasionally persuades Him.
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Post by gadreel on Jan 31, 2018 18:15:00 GMT
Why would Gods™ plan evolve? I thought you believed he was omniscient and omnipotent living outside of time. If that is the case then he knows what is going to happen before it happens and cannot be surprised by anything, in fact before everything started, if those attributes are true, then God™ would have everything perfectly planned to the last detail until the end of creation, what could possibly make him need to revise his plan? As previously stated, God's plan is intertwined around the free will of his creations. God's ability to consider, reconsider or act is timeless, as He is timeless. As to what entices Him to reconsider, it is His chief emotion - love - that occasionally persuades Him. He would only have to reconsider if the parameters and actions within his plan change, which they cannot possibly do if he is omniscient.
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Post by captainbryce on Jan 31, 2018 18:20:41 GMT
@winterssuicide Here’s one for your consideration. Matthew 5:29-30 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. Is Jesus actually advising his disciples that if they tear their eyes out, and cut off their limbs they can save their souls from hell? Yes or no? Look closer. He seems to be indicating something about an afterlife. That wasn’t my question. Is he telling his disciples to cut off their limbs to save their souls?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 18:22:39 GMT
As previously stated, God's plan is intertwined around the free will of his creations. God's ability to consider, reconsider or act is timeless, as He is timeless. As to what entices Him to reconsider, it is His chief emotion - love - that occasionally persuades Him. He would only have to reconsider if the parameters and actions within his plan change, which they cannot possibly do if he is omniscient. Lol, the parameters and actions within his plan do change. That's....the whole point I'm trying to make. He's the one who changes them.
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