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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Mar 12, 2017 5:56:17 GMT
Daenerys is not mad, never was and never will be. She is the Mad King’s daughter and as such will face the fearful worries of people who think of her father when they hear of her, the same way they could have feared Joffrey’s brother or Ramsay’s cousin. What people call “her Targaryen side” is nothing but the very common human ugliness of people wishing the worst on what they fear, calling for blind rage on difficulties, wishing they could simply crush everything that bothers them or watch those they think did them wrong writhe in agony until the end of time. Daenerys’ “Targaryen side” is in all those who nodded in agreement as Mirri Maz Duur burned or as Xaro and Doreah were locked up to die in some slow and terrible way. It is in those who cheered as she had Masters randomly crucified for being born into a social class whose rulers took a decision through some unspecified process. It is the dominant quality of all who think provoking fools into rage is a sufficient excuse to burn them alive. It is the core need of those who cheered at her Nuremberg speech atop a monster in the desert and secretly wished they would see her burn cities to the ground before settling for just one ship. Daenerys is not mad; she is the leader of yapping pugs and the hero of the lynch mob.
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Post by Aj_June on Mar 12, 2017 9:25:05 GMT
Here Ser Barristan talks about Targaryen madness.
Of course not all Targaryen have this madness. For example, Rhaegar was pretty normal. Mad king was paranoid and towards his end he became mad. Viserys was more or less delusional. The thing to understand is that madness is a very broadly defined term in the world of ASOAIF. I agree that Daenyrs is not exactly what you can call mad but she does exhibit schizotypal personality disorder. It might not only be due to Targaryen bloodline but because of abuses that she suffered from her brother and because of the fact that she had to keep on running from usurper's hired hands all through her childhood. Her belief that she is immune from diseases and other things reflect her delusional state of mind.
The thing is that these traits can grow in the next books. I personally believe that Dany will not last through the end of show/books and there is a faint chance that she could go mad or become more Schizotypal personality. The belief that Targaryens are immune from diseases is incorrect. Most of the Targaryens are probably not even immune from fire as some of them have died from fire.
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Post by Nightman on Mar 13, 2017 0:43:32 GMT
I never took the whole Targ madness thing seriously. They don't seem to be any more prone to madness than other families (Boltons, Greyjoys, Tullys, Lannisters, etc). They just got a worse reputation because until recently, they had access to dragons and ran the whole continent.
Dany will be fine. She'll have a brief time of flirting with the idea of being more of a "dragon", meaning more ruthless and cruel. That won't last long. She'll learn her lesson and move forward.
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Post by Aj_June on May 15, 2019 5:42:03 GMT
Timely bump Requoting my comment above.
What do you think about the mental health of Dany's brother who spent his childhood with her.
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Post by Aj_June on May 15, 2019 5:47:41 GMT
~ Leo
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 15, 2019 6:34:47 GMT
I don't think we can or should call Daenerys mad. Her behaviour is not incoherent or uncontrolled. She is doing what she once told Hizdahr she would find needed and justified. She didn't "snap" into something strange. Diagnosing her as sick is reassuring but it looks like saying that this alien is a bit on edge and others will probably be just fine, let's go talk to them. They won't. Daenerys is no madder than Hitler, Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. Or Robespierre.
The whole "Mad Queen" thing is too easy and nice. Using that term is a bad idea.
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Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
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Post by Marendil on May 15, 2019 7:01:23 GMT
Timely bump Requoting my comment above.
What do you think about the mental health of Dany's brother who spent his childhood with her.
I don't think there was enough there to venture a guess, either in the show or in the books. I've not yet gotten to the chapter where he dies in my re-read but it's coming up soon and Viserys doesn't get much mention, frankly. He supposedly had a terrible temper, but then again he had a lot to be angry about. Whether he was delusional depends on what you mean by that, he was raised as the last prince of a great house whose duty was to try to rebuild it and they did have supporters, perhaps not as much as in Illyrio Mopotis' fanciful tales, but Dorne was one powerful one and other places like most of Cracklaw Point never accepted the Baratheons. His position was pretty desperate but it was not delusional to believe with a Dothraki army at his back he might pose a serious threat to Robert Baratheon--who thought so himself.
The one in the show played by Harry Lloyd came off more as a weak man put in an impossible circumstance who tried to do the best with it. He insisted on his hereditary rights because if he didn't he wasn't even a pretender, but he didn't have the character to carry it off.
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on May 15, 2019 13:32:08 GMT
Daenerys is not mad, never was and never will be. She is the Mad King’s daughter and as such will face the fearful worries of people who think of her father when they hear of her, the same way they could have feared Joffrey’s brother or Ramsay’s cousin. What people call “her Targaryen side” is nothing but the very common human ugliness of people wishing the worst on what they fear, calling for blind rage on difficulties, wishing they could simply crush everything that bothers them or watch those they think did them wrong writhe in agony until the end of time. Daenerys’ “Targaryen side” is in all those who nodded in agreement as Mirri Maz Duur burned or as Xaro and Doreah were locked up to die in some slow and terrible way. It is in those who cheered as she had Masters randomly crucified for being born into a social class whose rulers took a decision through some unspecified process. It is the dominant quality of all who think provoking fools into rage is a sufficient excuse to burn them alive. It is the core need of those who cheered at her Nuremberg speech atop a monster in the desert and secretly wished they would see her burn cities to the ground before settling for just one ship. Daenerys is not mad; she is the leader of yapping pugs and the hero of the lynch mob. what should we call her then? either way what she did what pure madness but yes she knew exactly what she was saying and doing that was her plan all along
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The Lost One
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@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on May 15, 2019 13:36:33 GMT
I don't think Daenerys comes across as mad either - just ruthless and unforgiving. She's been like that since the start but this is the first time she's acted that way towards complete innocents on such a scale - previously her brutality had largely been confined to those who had already wronged her or were villains in their own right.
Having said that, while I think it's in character that she would consider a massacre so as to be able to rule in fear, I think it would be very last resort based on how she's behaved previously (look how patient she was in dealing with the situation in Meereen). She didn't really make any attempt at getting the people to love her. A few "bread and circuses" measures once she has installed as queen would probably have done the trick.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 15, 2019 14:19:00 GMT
Timely bump Requoting my comment above.
What do you think about the mental health of Dany's brother who spent his childhood with her.
I don't think there was enough there to venture a guess, either in the show or in the books. I've not yet gotten to the chapter where he dies in my re-read but it's coming up soon and Viserys doesn't get much mention, frankly. He supposedly had a terrible temper, but then again he had a lot to be angry about. Whether he was delusional depends on what you mean by that, he was raised as the last prince of a great house whose duty was to try to rebuild it and they did have supporters, perhaps not as much as in Illyrio Mopotis' fanciful tales, but Dorne was one powerful one and other places like most of Cracklaw Point never accepted the Baratheons. His position was pretty desperate but it was not delusional to believe with a Dothraki army at his back he might pose a serious threat to Robert Baratheon--who thought so himself.
The one in the show played by Harry Lloyd came off more as a weak man put in an impossible circumstance who tried to do the best with it. He insisted on his hereditary rights because if he didn't he wasn't even a pretender, but he didn't have the character to carry it off.
if you are not that far along in the book I won’t spoil anything but the book Dany is definitely not the show Dany and the question of who she imitates is much more vague because she is an actual chapter character. We know what and how she is thinking and that fleshes it out more. Although her character beats are similar is reading her mind about them changes their meaning. The show in no way has demonstrated the same level of nuance with her. She actually tends to be smart. Even the notion of a scorched earth policy is a smart one, just not one that is reconciled with her last behavior. That’s the reason people thinks she’s mad although her dads madness came much later but also due to a traumatic event. Rhaegar was probably crazy too though.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 15, 2019 14:29:04 GMT
I don't think Daenerys comes across as mad either - just ruthless and unforgiving. She's been like that since the start but this is the first time she's acted that way towards complete innocents on such a scale - previously her brutality had largely been confined to those who had already wronged her or were villains in their own right. Having said that, while I think it's in character that she would consider a massacre so as to be able to rule in fear, I think it would be very last resort based on how she's behaved previously (look how patient she was in dealing with the situation in Meereen). She didn't really make any attempt at getting the people to love her. A few "bread and circuses" measures once she has installed as queen would probably have done the trick. We saw Daenerys try to learn, compromise, fail and gradually lose patience. Her character evolved from listening to advice, as she did in Astapor when she combined that of both Jorah and Barristan, to requiring more and more restraint from her advisers. Tyrion had to tell her not to burn the whole fleet and army of the masters, for instance and she always was quick in judging her obstacles. She also seems to have learned that her former patience in Meereen had only allowed more trouble and she is no longer willing to go that way. In short, we saw her harden with time. Come to King's Landing, she no longer accepts resistance. It is not Cersei she is after, she has nothing personal against her. It is not Missandei she lost. It seems she rejects this city which does not want to open itself to her. She no longer wants to take it, she wants to burn it. We do not know why. Maybe she will say it in the next episode. Maybe she'll lie. My guess is that she wanted to make a display of power and ruthlessness to the allies she no longer trusts. "See what I can do? See what I will do? Make sure you stay on your knees."
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The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,672
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Post by The Lost One on May 15, 2019 15:11:05 GMT
I don't think Daenerys comes across as mad either - just ruthless and unforgiving. She's been like that since the start but this is the first time she's acted that way towards complete innocents on such a scale - previously her brutality had largely been confined to those who had already wronged her or were villains in their own right. Having said that, while I think it's in character that she would consider a massacre so as to be able to rule in fear, I think it would be very last resort based on how she's behaved previously (look how patient she was in dealing with the situation in Meereen). She didn't really make any attempt at getting the people to love her. A few "bread and circuses" measures once she has installed as queen would probably have done the trick. We saw Daenerys try to learn, compromise, fail and gradually lose patience. Her character evolved from listening to advice, as she did in Astapor when she combined that of both Jorah and Barristan, to requiring more and more restraint from her advisers. Tyrion had to tell her not to burn the whole fleet and army of the masters, for instance and she always was quick in judging her obstacles. She also seems to have learned that her former patience in Meereen had only allowed more trouble and she is no longer willing to go that way. In short, we saw her harden with time. Come to King's Landing, she no longer accepts resistance. It is not Cersei she is after, she has nothing personal against her. It is not Missandei she lost. It seems she rejects this city which does not want to open itself to her. She no longer wants to take it, she wants to burn it. We do not know why. Maybe she will say it in the next episode. Maybe she'll lie. My guess is that she wanted to make a display of power and ruthlessness to the allies she no longer trusts. "See what I can do? See what I will do? Make sure you stay on your knees." Yeah I can accept that was probably what the writers were going for. I'm not sure it came across all that well though. Her gradual loss of patience became a freefall.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on May 15, 2019 18:51:51 GMT
I hate to agree with the lion there, but yeah, she's not mad. She's just an asshole.
Sure, she lost two of her dragons and a dear friend, that would piss anyone off. I could see her taking it out on Cersei and anyone who was at the Red Keep. That whole lot needed to go anyway.
But taking it out on the innocent civilians? Wtf? She literally murdered several thousand people. Out of grief? Fuck that.
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Post by Aj_June on May 15, 2019 19:36:51 GMT
I don't think we can or should call Daenerys mad. Her behaviour is not incoherent or uncontrolled. She is doing what she once told Hizdahr she would find needed and justified. She didn't "snap" into something strange. Diagnosing her as sick is reassuring but it looks like saying that this alien is a bit on edge and others will probably be just fine, let's go talk to them. They won't. Daenerys is no madder than Hitler, Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot. Or Robespierre. The whole "Mad Queen" thing is too easy and nice. Using that term is a bad idea. That's correct, idiot. We may not call her mad because it may not be mad as we know the term today. But you have been going crazy against people who merely said there was no indication that she would go mad. You even called those people in the last few days to kill themselves. So the point is that you are saying things you don't mean based on current public perception. Had I not bumped this thread you would have been going along with the mad bandwagoners.
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Post by Aj_June on May 15, 2019 19:42:01 GMT
Timely bump Requoting my comment above.
What do you think about the mental health of Dany's brother who spent his childhood with her.
I don't think there was enough there to venture a guess, either in the show or in the books. I've not yet gotten to the chapter where he dies in my re-read but it's coming up soon and Viserys doesn't get much mention, frankly. He supposedly had a terrible temper, but then again he had a lot to be angry about. Whether he was delusional depends on what you mean by that, he was raised as the last prince of a great house whose duty was to try to rebuild it and they did have supporters, perhaps not as much as in Illyrio Mopotis' fanciful tales, but Dorne was one powerful one and other places like most of Cracklaw Point never accepted the Baratheons. His position was pretty desperate but it was not delusional to believe with a Dothraki army at his back he might pose a serious threat to Robert Baratheon--who thought so himself.
The one in the show played by Harry Lloyd came off more as a weak man put in an impossible circumstance who tried to do the best with it. He insisted on his hereditary rights because if he didn't he wasn't even a pretender, but he didn't have the character to carry it off.
Well, many articles that I read uses the word delusional for Viserys. Take the game of throne fandom for instance.
So may be sometimes people use delusional as in "a fool" and sometimes as in properly delusional. I do believe he was close to delusional. Yes, he was always told that he is the king but given that he was used to constantly running & hiding around and living not so lavish lifestyle he should have known better. He also didn't seem to understand his position when he was moving the khalasar of Drogo. He didn't even understand extent of his position. Althogh I am okay if you don't believe that he was deluded. It's just a matter of how we read characters subjectively.
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Post by lunda2222 on May 15, 2019 20:07:02 GMT
It's been a while, but If I recall the books correctly, (I read the first 3 books long before show started and decided to wait until the entire book series was finished) the madness in the family comes from their tendency to marry their sisters/brothers (yes, from several generations of inbreeding).
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Marendil
Sophomore
@marendil
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Post by Marendil on May 15, 2019 20:36:27 GMT
I don't think there was enough there to venture a guess, either in the show or in the books. I've not yet gotten to the chapter where he dies in my re-read but it's coming up soon and Viserys doesn't get much mention, frankly. He supposedly had a terrible temper, but then again he had a lot to be angry about. Whether he was delusional depends on what you mean by that, he was raised as the last prince of a great house whose duty was to try to rebuild it and they did have supporters, perhaps not as much as in Illyrio Mopotis' fanciful tales, but Dorne was one powerful one and other places like most of Cracklaw Point never accepted the Baratheons. His position was pretty desperate but it was not delusional to believe with a Dothraki army at his back he might pose a serious threat to Robert Baratheon--who thought so himself.
The one in the show played by Harry Lloyd came off more as a weak man put in an impossible circumstance who tried to do the best with it. He insisted on his hereditary rights because if he didn't he wasn't even a pretender, but he didn't have the character to carry it off.
Well, many articles that I read uses the word delusional for Viserys. Take the game of throne fandom for instance.
So may be sometimes people use delusional as in "a fool" and sometimes as in properly delusional. I do believe he was close to delusional. Yes, he was always told that he is the king but given that he was used to constantly running & hiding around and living not so lavish lifestyle he should have known better. He also didn't seem to understand his position when he was moving the khalasar of Drogo. He didn't even understand extent of his position. Althogh I am okay if you don't believe that he was deluded. It's just a matter of how we read characters subjectively.
That's part and parcel of being a pretender though, theoretically he's the rightful king and Robert Baratheon an usurper and as such should act like a king until he comes into his rightful throne. It's how his supporters would expect and encourage him to act since he was a small boy. Delusional, in the medical sense, would be more like if he thought he was Viserys--but wasn't--without any legitimate reason (early memories, supporters always telling him so in exile) to believe so. I think he was well aware he was a 'beggar king' and that pained him greatly so he was particular about standing up for his theoretical rights.
Exiled nobility and royalty in our world would go to foreign courts and receive the honors due their station and there was an example of that in King Robert's court as well, Jalabhar Xhoan, an exiled prince of the Summer Isles. The Dothraki were not quite as understanding of that practice and Viserys not very successful in educating them, they followed power and strength more than bloodlines.
A twenty-some young man thinking they are better than they really are is more braggadocio in my view and not uncommon.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on May 16, 2019 2:01:43 GMT
Do you know anyone calling her Dany?
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