Post by stargazer1682 on Apr 6, 2018 3:34:05 GMT
Alright, who sides with John and who sides with Oliver?
Honestly, I didn't think John had any leg to stand on in their blow out, and was kind of disappointed they tried having him make it all about Oliver and everything being his fault. I was starting to expect them to find out something was physically wrong with him; like he was recognizing the irrationality of his behavior and it would turn out to be something like his implant was affecting him adversely; and then they turned around and made it something stupid.
So let's go point by point in their argument.
Diggle takes issue with Oliver feeling complete as the Green Arrow, and that, "it was supposed to be about saving the city; helping the people, not ourselves."
Okay, you can't do both? A cop or a doctor or anyone who helps anybody can't derive a sense of personal satisfaction and completion by helping other people? I don't think Oliver was suggesting that the mere act of wearing his costume and doing nothing else was what made him feel complete. If it was and Oliver was just sitting around his apartment in his costume eating Cheetos and refusing to let anyone else use his masked identity to do something more productive, then yeah, Diggle might have a case. But it is invariably him putting on the suit and fighting corruption that lends itself to Oliver feeling whole.
I'll give some points to John, Oliver might be stretching himself thin between being the Green Arrow and mayor. Seeing how he works with his "wife" I don't think I'd qualify him being derelict in his relationship. This is the nature of their relationship. Mind you, they never act like they're married, and you wouldn't guess it by the way he never seems to look directly at her when talking to her; and he speaks with more affection when he talks to John.... But it's still just how their relationship is... For some reason.
And so far we haven't been given any indication he's neglected William.
Oliver sort of alienates people, but rarely in such a way as to legitimately question his leadership. Diggle mentions Thea and Roy, and their absence from the team had nothing to do with Oliver's leadership or him alienating them. If anything it was just the opposite with Roy, that Oliver inspired such confidence and loyalty that Roy took it on himself to protect Oliver's identity at all cost.
Thea left for personal reasons and ultimately found her own calling.
He says putting the team under surveillance was a mistake, to which I unequivocally say he's wrong. One of them was in fact betraying them, Renee had broken their trust - trust which was given, in my opinion, far too freely, considering Oliver barely knew them; and the decision promptly bit Oliver in the ass when someone else betrayed him.
They are masked vigilantes working outside the law, their entire reason for being a team was built on secrets and lies. Trust, but verify.
And then back to, 'if you do this for yourself, to any degree, you're not a good enough hero."
Scree that. What is he or anyone else supposed to do to be a hero; flagellate himself every time he feels a sense of fulfillment if he helps anybody.
Next, Diaz has already won.
Oh, okay, I guess it's time to just pack it in then. Is that what John's saying? Because that's what it sounds like he's saying.
Meanwhile, point by point, Oliver is spot on. While Diggle was the Green Arrow, he hid his injury, secretly took drugs, which did more harm than good and gave money to Diaz; his pride and injury compromised the team in countless ways and it got Renee hurt. Oh, but it's okay, because he sacrificed his comfort for the team; and it's Oliver's fault that Renee is hurt now, even though his present condition was a direct result of his injuries sustained because John wasn't giving any thought of his own well being or the implications it had for the team.
Seriously, he's placing the death of Williams mother on Oliver's decisions, because a crazy man kidnapped her and rigged an entire island to explode; and she had the misfortune of not being under contract?
Mentioning Andy was a low blow, even if a valid point...
Aaaand Felicity steps in and scolds them into more rational thinking, making everything up to that pointless... and, oh, look, she solved that near impossible thing she about to do in like, a minute.....
"If I'm going to be the best version of myself, Oliver, it can't be with you."
"John, are you breaking up with me? Wait, which line on the marriage certificate did you sign...?"
I mean, come on; if Oliver's split focus has lead to worse leadership, then the simplest answer isn't to leave the team. I commented with the last episode that Oliver and John's roles should be an equitable partnership. John should be able to make some of the important calls, especially in Oliver's absence; and it shouldn't matter what he wears when he makes those calls. And there's a difference of opinion, then they need to reconcile that, but especially in a team of two it makes no sense to say one has absolute authority and the other has to blindly follow.
Even in a fuller team setting, there's no reason Oliver has to be the leader. I've been saying for months that Sara should be on as Team Arrow's leader, instead of slumming it with the legends. On Angel, it was a strong plot development when Angel ended up working for the rest of his former crew, but then the build up and resolution was done much better on that show...
So Diggle feels lost after leaving the team, and doesn't know how he'll fight for the city alone. Really? As opposed to if Oliver had hung up the hood and left you to it, with tech support Barbie as your only sidekick?
Felicity: I'm not going anywhere.
I hope that's not true.
Oh, but wait, next week Felicity says they need space. Don't toy with me.
Oh no, Oliver might be impeached...
Honestly, I didn't think John had any leg to stand on in their blow out, and was kind of disappointed they tried having him make it all about Oliver and everything being his fault. I was starting to expect them to find out something was physically wrong with him; like he was recognizing the irrationality of his behavior and it would turn out to be something like his implant was affecting him adversely; and then they turned around and made it something stupid.
So let's go point by point in their argument.
Diggle takes issue with Oliver feeling complete as the Green Arrow, and that, "it was supposed to be about saving the city; helping the people, not ourselves."
Okay, you can't do both? A cop or a doctor or anyone who helps anybody can't derive a sense of personal satisfaction and completion by helping other people? I don't think Oliver was suggesting that the mere act of wearing his costume and doing nothing else was what made him feel complete. If it was and Oliver was just sitting around his apartment in his costume eating Cheetos and refusing to let anyone else use his masked identity to do something more productive, then yeah, Diggle might have a case. But it is invariably him putting on the suit and fighting corruption that lends itself to Oliver feeling whole.
I'll give some points to John, Oliver might be stretching himself thin between being the Green Arrow and mayor. Seeing how he works with his "wife" I don't think I'd qualify him being derelict in his relationship. This is the nature of their relationship. Mind you, they never act like they're married, and you wouldn't guess it by the way he never seems to look directly at her when talking to her; and he speaks with more affection when he talks to John.... But it's still just how their relationship is... For some reason.
And so far we haven't been given any indication he's neglected William.
Oliver sort of alienates people, but rarely in such a way as to legitimately question his leadership. Diggle mentions Thea and Roy, and their absence from the team had nothing to do with Oliver's leadership or him alienating them. If anything it was just the opposite with Roy, that Oliver inspired such confidence and loyalty that Roy took it on himself to protect Oliver's identity at all cost.
Thea left for personal reasons and ultimately found her own calling.
He says putting the team under surveillance was a mistake, to which I unequivocally say he's wrong. One of them was in fact betraying them, Renee had broken their trust - trust which was given, in my opinion, far too freely, considering Oliver barely knew them; and the decision promptly bit Oliver in the ass when someone else betrayed him.
They are masked vigilantes working outside the law, their entire reason for being a team was built on secrets and lies. Trust, but verify.
And then back to, 'if you do this for yourself, to any degree, you're not a good enough hero."
Scree that. What is he or anyone else supposed to do to be a hero; flagellate himself every time he feels a sense of fulfillment if he helps anybody.
Next, Diaz has already won.
Oh, okay, I guess it's time to just pack it in then. Is that what John's saying? Because that's what it sounds like he's saying.
Meanwhile, point by point, Oliver is spot on. While Diggle was the Green Arrow, he hid his injury, secretly took drugs, which did more harm than good and gave money to Diaz; his pride and injury compromised the team in countless ways and it got Renee hurt. Oh, but it's okay, because he sacrificed his comfort for the team; and it's Oliver's fault that Renee is hurt now, even though his present condition was a direct result of his injuries sustained because John wasn't giving any thought of his own well being or the implications it had for the team.
Seriously, he's placing the death of Williams mother on Oliver's decisions, because a crazy man kidnapped her and rigged an entire island to explode; and she had the misfortune of not being under contract?
Mentioning Andy was a low blow, even if a valid point...
Aaaand Felicity steps in and scolds them into more rational thinking, making everything up to that pointless... and, oh, look, she solved that near impossible thing she about to do in like, a minute.....
"If I'm going to be the best version of myself, Oliver, it can't be with you."
"John, are you breaking up with me? Wait, which line on the marriage certificate did you sign...?"
I mean, come on; if Oliver's split focus has lead to worse leadership, then the simplest answer isn't to leave the team. I commented with the last episode that Oliver and John's roles should be an equitable partnership. John should be able to make some of the important calls, especially in Oliver's absence; and it shouldn't matter what he wears when he makes those calls. And there's a difference of opinion, then they need to reconcile that, but especially in a team of two it makes no sense to say one has absolute authority and the other has to blindly follow.
Even in a fuller team setting, there's no reason Oliver has to be the leader. I've been saying for months that Sara should be on as Team Arrow's leader, instead of slumming it with the legends. On Angel, it was a strong plot development when Angel ended up working for the rest of his former crew, but then the build up and resolution was done much better on that show...
So Diggle feels lost after leaving the team, and doesn't know how he'll fight for the city alone. Really? As opposed to if Oliver had hung up the hood and left you to it, with tech support Barbie as your only sidekick?
Felicity: I'm not going anywhere.
I hope that's not true.
Oh, but wait, next week Felicity says they need space. Don't toy with me.
Oh no, Oliver might be impeached...