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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 22, 2018 19:50:11 GMT
As I’ve written to Primemovermithrax Pejorative, while I’m not much of a Hammer fan, I think it deserves its own thread, if only because of its influence and intermittent (in my opinion, all too intermittent) fairy-tale quality. I can comment some more later, but I’d be interested in reading everything you have to say first; Gruffimus has written some great comments in another thread here (even if I don’t necessarily agree with everything). The subject came to mind because I’m currently watching Dracula A.D. 1972 for the first time, and it’s not half as bad as I expected it to be—thematically close to the Count Yorga pictures. Amazingly, the movie manages more of a Gothic mood here than Hammer’s flagship Horror of Dracula! And the opening sequence was both surprisingly well-filmed and replicated, at points shot-for-shot, by Tim Burton for Sleepy Hollow. Favorite Hammers: The Revenge of Frankenstein
The Brides of Dracula
Scream of Fear ( Taste of Fear) [not a Gothic monster flick but a psychological thriller—by far the best movie Hammer ever made] Night Creatures ( Captain Clegg) The Kiss of the Vampire
Frankenstein Must Be Destroyed
Scars of Dracula
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Apr 22, 2018 20:14:28 GMT
I would have started a thread but I figured you were going to do it right away when you mentioned it a week or so back!
Of that list, Night Creatures, Kiss of the Vampire, and Scars of Dracula I like best. I realize FMBD is one of the most high budgeted and dramatically in depth ones, but I think the ending falls flat a little. It does not have a Gothic vibe (except maybe for the brief bit with the horse carriage waiting in the fog).
Michael Ripper, Mr. Hammer himself, said Anthony Hinds was the main creative at Hammer--he was the one who came up with the idea to buy a mansion and use it as a studio (Bray). It is his scripts that have a fairy tale quality, involving a wicked authority figure (who may or may not also be deformed physically), as well as an outcast sympathetic character (who might be mute or poor).
Anyway my top five favorites are:
The Abominable Snowman
Phantom of the Opera
Frankenstein Created Woman
Dracula Has Risen From the Grave
Dr. Jekyll and Sister Hyde
Night Creatures, Kiss of the Vampire, The Reptile, Plague of the Zombies, The Lost Continent, Taste the Blood of Dracula, Scars of Dracula, Hands of the Ripper are also high on my list.
Mixed feelings on Dracula AD 72. It was the one most shown when I was a kid. The youth culture slang is very dated and silly-and I hate the music number sequence with the Droog wannabe Johnny Alucard.
But Cushing has a lot to do and Beacham was good, but I think they underused the Inspector Murray character (who has more to do in Satanic Rites).
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 22, 2018 20:40:29 GMT
That’s OK, no worries, Primemovermithrax Pejorative . I was going to start it but got more or less bogged down in other stuff—apologies. I knew someone was going to point out that FMBD doesn’t have the Gothic vibe I’ve praised so much! I think that’s definitely true, but I think it’s fairly good as a character-study—Cushing’s Frankenstein is marvellous there, a proto-Hannibal Lecter, and Terence Fisher’s direction is at its best, with that Hitchcockian sequence in the garden. (I think Hitchcock praised Fisher’s So Long at the Fair? I mean to see that one of these days.) I also like Frankenstein Created Woman and Dr. Jekyll and Sister Hyde, and see them as probably the most underrated Hammers. I used to like Dracula Has Risen from the Grave a great deal, but now I just find it vaguely boring (despite good La Bohème-esque sets and a sympathetic heroine in Veronica Carlson). One of my usual problems with Hammer is their slow pace. Watching AD ’72 right now, and I’ll let you know what I think when I finish. It’s not great, to be sure, but it’s just not half as bad as I thought it’d be.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Apr 22, 2018 20:52:58 GMT
Oops I misread and thought you had already watched it! Someone else is underused in it as well but I wont say until you have finished it.
I particularly like Risen From the Grave because of the dramatic-thematic conflict. The atheist and the disgraced priest have to join forces to defeat Dracula. Not to mention the village bakery is made so exciting.
Dracula has this habit of tossing most vampire women into the garbage. This is one of the weaknesses of Hammer--an interesting subplot left unexplored. Xenia as a vampire? I would have liked to see how that played out.
FMBD has perhaps the strongest dramatic situation for the "monster," but the negativity of the ending goes against Hammer tradition, and may be due to Warner's demands.
One of my least favorites is Demons of the Mind which I really don't like at all. Had potential, looked expensive too, but was too far out of the horror genre.
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 22, 2018 21:25:40 GMT
That’s fine, GP. I’ll let you know what I think of ’72 when I finish.
I’m actually surprised at the quality of the direction: it’s not incredible, but it’s decent enough, interesting enough, that I didn’t pay as much attention to the dialogue, which is truly atrocious. (Poor Peter Cushing, actually having to speak these lines… As usual, with what he’s given, he’s great.)
I found another Hammer-Hitchcock parallel in the way that Insp. Murray’s investigation is so similar to Insp. Oxford’s in Frenzy, the same year. I was willing to swear that Frenzy inspired ’72, but is the time schedule too small? Frenzy came out in June, ’72 in September. And ’72 even gives us a[n admittedly ridiculous] shower scene!
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Apr 22, 2018 21:58:51 GMT
Quatermass and the Pit is another one I like (though it is more sci-fi horror). I like The Devil Rides Out but it has some FX issues that hamper enjoyment of it for me.
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 22, 2018 22:09:16 GMT
I finished it.
It was…ehh, it was OK. The other underused actor was Lee? I definitely saw that—he stays in that church the whole time—but he’s fine during the climax. In fact, the whole cast is fine; it’s just that awful script that lets them down. But, as I said, the director managed some neat Hitchcockian touches, Cushing was great, and the movie was far better than it had any right to be. Is it good? Nah. But it’s decent, which is surprising. Again, the script is atrocious, and the music isn’t much better.
By the way, yet another Hitchcock-Hammer connection: So Long at the Fair was based on the Paris Exposition story, which was the basis for The Lady Vanishes and an episode of the Hitchcock Presents TV show.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Apr 22, 2018 22:37:57 GMT
Lee is almost always underused. One gets used to it. lol I meant Caroline Munro wasnt turned into a vampire. Its a weird thing with these Dracula films--sometimes the women victims become vampires, other times he tosses them in the garbage.
I suspect it suffered from Warners tampering and inadequate budget (should have had at least one scene of Lee stranding somewhere with London's nightline showing).
This was I think the last Hammer film to get Hollywood studio patronage. Satanic Rites wasnt even released in the US until the late 70s I hear.
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Post by politicidal on Apr 22, 2018 23:21:44 GMT
Oh I usually enjoyed the hell out of HH. There were some dull examples or outright duds like Horror Express, Rasputin the Mad Mon, and The Terror of the Tongs. The Devil Rides Out, The Hound of the Baskervilles, The Curse of Frankenstein, She, The Plague of Zombies, and The Abominable Snowman are my favorites.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Apr 22, 2018 23:31:37 GMT
I forgot, this is the one where Cushing says:
"Murder, Jessica. That's what all this is about. Ghastly, horrible, obscene murder!"
Horror Express is not Hammer Horror. And how dare you speak ill of a film with Lee, Cushing, AND Telly Savalas!
Actually I like Rasputin, but it is less of a horror and more of an alternate universe historical drama. BUT Lee has a lot of screen time. Seems like it was modeled on Svengali after seeing that film-there are a couple of moments in the 31 film that appear to be copied in the 66 Rasputin.
I also like Hound of the Baskervilles--forgot to mention that.
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 22, 2018 23:44:18 GMT
I feel that I’m the only person who doesn’t enjoy the Hammer Hound; I just find it rather dull. (As I wrote, it’s the same for me with many Hammers.) André Morrell makes for an excellent Watson, though. (I think Cushing’s a better Holmes in the later TV series.) Sad to say I feel the sets seem flimsy and phony even by Hammer standards. As for Lee’s being underused, Primemovermithrax Pejorative , I quite agree; he’s actually at his best in the non-Hammers. I’m thinking of Mycroft in The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes, Lord Summerisle in The Wicker Man, and even Scaramanga in The Man with the Golden Gun (not otherwise a very good movie). And I too would have liked Caroline Munro as a vampire—that she didn’t become a vampire is a bit of a plot-hole, no? But I confess I wasn’t paying much attention to that spectacularly silly plot. ’72 made me think of a Hammer ‘thing,’ though, that I always find curious, a kind of sub rosa Catholicism that differentiates Protestantism in England from Protestantism in the rest of Europe. Is Hammer’s Van Helsing, with rosary and holy water, a Catholic? (I suppose he could be a High Church Anglican, but he’d have to be very high church to carry around a rosary.) Perhaps I’m the only one who’s interested in that, but what you mentioned about the priest reminded me of it—there’s something very Catholic about Hammer horror, what with Van Helsing’s rosaries and Andrew Keir’s vampire-fighting monk.
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Post by General Kenobi on Apr 22, 2018 23:57:32 GMT
There's a really good two part series about Hammer's Frankenstein franchise.
I really liked how the monster of the series was Dr. Frankenstein, instead of his creature. He was a completely amoral figure, brilliantly portrayed by the always excellent Peter Cushing, who only cared about his research, and didn't care about the lives destroyed in the process.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Apr 23, 2018 0:02:20 GMT
They also didnt explain what happened to Jessica's boyfriend-we see his body but how did he die?
I wouldnt say Cushing is my favorite Holmes but it is my favorite version of the story although I think there is one from the late 60s I have yet to see. I am not a fan of the first Hammer Dracula(but I can understand why it was well regarded), Frankenstein, and am so-so about the Mummy as well. Dont hate them, just dont love them.
Hound is an excellent film to run a thematic comparison with Sleepy Hollow though. In Hound the bad guys are descendants of the deformed wicked aristocrat Sir Hugo. The girl and her father came from Spain and they hate England! I wonder how that went down with audiences in the UK. In the end, Henry, the family member who was living abroad, returns to assume the title for the community.
Now in Sleepy Hollow, Ichabod Crane the inspector goes to Sleepy Hollow much as Holmes and Watson do. And once again you have a family involved in a land dispute--in this case however they are not ungrateful immigrants but presumably a pioneering family--with some ties to witchcraft. In the end they are defeated, but the town is not preserved. It seems as though the community is going to become extinct--all the town bigwigs are dead and Crane takes Van Tassel's daughter and heads for the big city.
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 23, 2018 0:13:41 GMT
Well, Sleepy Hollow is one of my favorites, Primemovermithrax Pejorative, so allow me to defend it a bit. If we’re going into sociological concerns, Stapleton is (unless I’m misremembering the movie) most definitely English, or at least British; it is only his daughter who’s Spanish (on her mother’s side?). And does she ever say she hates England, or just the Baskerville family? Also, they come from old English stock, from a decadent English aristocrat. I definitely wouldn’t say it’s mounting any kind of preservation-of-community subtext. On the other hand, I don’t think Sleepy Hollow says anything about the town’s not being preserved. It does imply that Crane and Katrina will find a better future in New York, yes—the screenplay believes in the Idea of Progress—but not that the town will become extinct. It’s still there, and part of the appeal is that the very heart and soul of the town will now be not in its version of decadent aristocrats but rather in the townsfolk. No?
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Apr 23, 2018 0:20:25 GMT
And does she ever say she hates England, or just the Baskerville family? Also, they come from old English stock, from a decadent English aristocrat. I definitely wouldn’t say it’s mounting any kind of preservation-of-community subtext. On the other hand, I don’t think Sleepy Hollow says anything about the town’s not being preserved. It does imply that Crane and Katrina will find a better future in New York, yes—the screenplay believes in the Idea of Progress—but not that the town will become extinct. It’s still there, and part of the appeal is that the very heart and soul of the town will now be not in its version of decadent aristocrats but rather in the townsfolk. No? I believe she says she hates England and wants to leave. But the community itself is preserved. The continuation is established. In Sleepy Hollow all the heads of the town (literally) are decapitated. Brom Bones and the others. It's like--oh well who cares? Crane was sent there to solve their problem and then its like, oh well, what matters is they all went to the big city. Van Tassel's daughter was of some importance in the community too (though they throw in that witch angle). Edit: I dont there is any coda for the town. They are running about in the church. If it was an old Hammer film with the same plot, then it would have ended with either Van Tassel's daughter and the kid watching as the witch tree dissolves into the ground or Crane would be the one deciding to stay. Or they would have had a character--like a Sir Henry, to indicate that there was continuation of the town. In Night Creatures, Clegg is an outsider who rebuilds the community (and himself). In that case his daughter leaves, with Oliver Reed --it just occurred to me, Imogen never learns that Reverend Bliss is in fact Clegg did she? I wonder if that follows the original story. anyway at the end he dies and is buried but you don't get the sense the community dies with him. In fact, you have Patrick Allen's character honoring him as well. OH BTW--have you seen NEVER TAKE CANDY FROM A STRANGER? Hammer's most interesting suspense film.
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 23, 2018 0:54:12 GMT
Hm. But Crane solves the problem of the Horseman for the town—implying that the town is worth saving. And remember that the town is more than just the heads of the town: there are more people running around in the church than only the few the Horseman was sent to kill. You’re right that there is no coda for the town, but I think that’s more because the screenwriter couldn’t think of a way to wrap it up than it is that he meant some kind of sociological or political meaning. The picture’s politics are (probably purposely) superficial—as, I should note, are the Hammer films’. I don’t think I can agree with the standard that leaving no main character present in Sleepy Hollow at the end implies a a criticism of traditional community any more than killing off the Meinsters implies a criticism of traditional aristocracy.
I haven’t seen Never Take Candy from a Stranger, but I’ve heard it’s quite good.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Apr 23, 2018 1:05:26 GMT
I love the Hammer horror films. I hope I have time to read this entire thread later.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Apr 23, 2018 1:46:45 GMT
Hm. But Crane solves the problem of the Horseman for the town—implying that the town is worth saving. And remember that the town is more than just the heads of the town: there are more people running around in the church than only the few the Horseman was sent to kill. You’re right that there is no coda for the town, but I think that’s more because the screenwriter couldn’t think of a way to wrap it up than it is that he meant some kind of sociological or political meaning. The picture’s politics are (probably purposely) superficial—as, I should note, are the Hammer films’. I don’t think I can agree with the standard that leaving no main character present in Sleepy Hollow at the end implies a a criticism of traditional community any more than killing off the Meinsters implies a criticism of traditional aristocracy. Well he had to deal with the witch or he could have died and the girl too. He was in dangerous himself (not sure if Holmes faced that danger in Hound--the mind is fuzzy)...but do we get to know those town characters? The only one who is given any attention is the orphaned youth (which does beg the question--he lived all those years in the town and had no friends? Is that possible?). So he leaves with Crane. I may point out that Crane was an oddball back in the city--so you could almost be expecting him to find a home in the town-but nope. He goes back to the scum and villainy of the city. They chose to end it with a big city arrival. On the surface it may be something visually exciting but not even a send off from the townspeople? What I realized with Hammer films is that they tend to have a basic theme where the community is under threat from either a sick insider (an aristocrat or the child of one--this is true of HOUND and also HANDS OF THE RIPPER) or a dangerous outsider (the Reptile), and/or there is a combination--someone in a town ventures out into the exotic lands and causes trouble and comes back...That was the case with Plague of the Zombies, and the Reptile, even Frankenstein. Look at how Coppola's Dracula plays out--Dracula fights for the church and he turns against it because of their corruption, then he becomes some kind of anti-hero. He is not the bad guy of Stoker's novel or Hammer's Dracula. Off hand the only Draculas I can think of post Lee who fit the evil type are the one in Blacula, the Monster Squad, and Blade 3. In the other versions, he tends to be a misunderstood guy or there is some other element to muddle the good vs bad--like a recent BBC version where Jonathan Harker(?) has syphilis and doesn't tell Mina! One thing pointed out to me about the 58 Dracula is by combining the various good guys into Van Helsing, he becomes a sort of vampire hunting action hero Sherlock Holmes. Far cry from Edward Van Sloan's depiction in the Lugosi version.
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Post by Nalkarj on Apr 23, 2018 14:47:19 GMT
I do agree about the Coppola Dracula, Primemovermithrax Pejorative , and you’re right about the muddling of good and evil in later horror pictures. They’re pre-Lee, of course, but Nosferatu and nearly all of the Uni monster flicks (except Dracula’s Daughter) see the vampire as unquestionably bad; it’s only in modern times that the good-evil distinction has been muddled (loss of objectivity and all that… Geez, all the politics we go can go into! ). As for Sleepy Hollow, he saves himself, the girl, the kid, and the town. If he’d only been in it for himself, he could have left with all of ‘em, but he shores up his courage to go and fight the Horseman. You note “the scum and villainy of the city”—indeed, the city, in those early scenes, is seen as just as much a squalid hellhole as the town itself (though I, with my interest in the period, architecture, and small-town legends, much prefer the town!), so I see little commentary on the city as ‘progressive’ and the town as ‘reactionary’ (to use those terms as they’re used nowadays). The only exception may well be the ending, as I wrote above, but I honestly can’t find any sense of a lack of continuity. If it had ended with the town destroyed or something—if the town had burned instead of the windmill—I would agree with you, but there is a town left, and people left in it (including some wealthy families, I’m sure—the Horseman didn’t kill everyone at Van Tassel’s party in the beginning!). Again, I don’t believe that the deaths of the town ‘aristocrats’ imply a criticism of community any more than the deaths of the Meinsters (or, for that matter, the Ravnas or the Karnsteins) imply a criticism of aristocracy. My favorite thing about the ’58 Dracula is Cushing. His (and Jimmy Sangster’s, and Terence Fisher’s) take on the Van Helsing character as a vampire-hunting Sherlock Holmes is superb, makes the character more exciting (a genuine hero), and fits the movie perfectly. taylorfirst1, hope you enjoy the thread and our discussions—I don’t think I’ve ever analyzed these movies to this extent before.
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Post by Primemovermithrax Pejorative on Apr 23, 2018 15:29:36 GMT
You note “the scum and villainy of the city”—indeed, the city, in those early scenes, is seen as just as much a squalid hellhole as the town itself (though I, with my interest in the period, architecture, and small-town legends, much prefer the town!), so I see little commentary on the city as ‘progressive’ and the town as ‘reactionary’ (to use those terms as they’re used nowadays). The only exception may well be the ending, as I wrote above, but I honestly can’t find any sense of a lack of continuity. If it had ended with the town destroyed or something—if the town had burned instead of the windmill—I would agree with you, but there is a town left, and people left in it (including some wealthy families, I’m sure—the Horseman didn’t kill everyone at Van Tassel’s party in the beginning!). Again, I don’t believe that the deaths of the town ‘aristocrats’ imply a criticism of community any more than the deaths of the Meinsters (or, for that matter, the Ravnas or the Karnsteins) imply a criticism of aristocracy. It doesn't have to manifest itself as criticism. Having both Van Tassel and the orphan leave with Crane is enough, since it implies for them, the city is preferable. Having a poor townsperson being victimized by a wealthy landowner is enough, since it is something you know does happen. And that's where Sleepy Hollow twists it around because the two blonde girls in SH were kicked off their land, but we do not see their parents or know anything about them. Also, the Headless Horseman is something of a sympathetic figure himself, it is the girls who are presented with zero sympathy (even the family in Hound, while meanish, generate at least some pity for being sucked into the moors). Oh my, we forgot all about Crane's father didnt we? Ha, I knew there was a neurotic element I was missing. Yes, the Christian patriarch with the witch wife and Crane's psychological problems in dealing with it. That element would definitely not have found its way into a Hammer film of old.
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