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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 29, 2018 21:28:24 GMT
He doesn't have to tell them they turn to ash. He can just tell them what they should do to make sure it results in the winning scenario. Since no MCU fan has been able to give a logical and reasonable answer yet, I'll ask again:
Why would telling them what they should do cause them to not be on the winning timeline anymore? If Doctor Strange told them what they should to achieve the 1 winning scenario out of 14 million scenarios, why would they do anything differently?
If someone told you "These are going to be the winning lottery numbers", why would you not choose those numbers? When Biff had Gray's Sports Almanac, do you think Biff placed any bets that he knew wasn't going to win?
Doctor Strange supposedly knows the 1 winning scenario out of 1.4 million scenarios that would defeat a madman from killing half the universe, but he's going to keep that 1 winning scenario out of 1.4 million scenarios a secret all to himself and take that secret with him to the grave? Like I said, really awful writing!
No, it's because you don't understand. Clearly you never watched Terminator or even understand timeline paradox or the Butterfly effect. The one future Strange saw clearly involved the fight, Tony being wounded and everyone else being disintegrated. Mentioning it to the others simply alters that, hence the Butterfly effect. Even the simplest thing can change the future. So had Strange told the others, it could have had a very different outcome and they would never win or defeat Thanos So you're basically saying that if Starlord hadn't acted like such a big dick and they had succeeded in getting the gauntlet off Thanos' hand before Strange could give Thanos the time stone, then that would've resulted in a losing scenario. In that case, shouldn't Strange have said something like "Hey, stop, whatever you do, don't take the gauntlet off Thanos' hand! We need Thanos to keep the gauntlet." And you're also basically saying that if Thanos had stabbed Stark through the heart instead of the shoulder and killed Stark, then that would've also resulted in a losing scenario. In that case, was Strange just praying and hoping they would be lucky that Thanos didn't have better aim? Like I said, really bad writing in Infinity War!
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Apr 29, 2018 21:32:48 GMT
No, it's because you don't understand. Clearly you never watched Terminator or even understand timeline paradox or the Butterfly effect. The one future Strange saw clearly involved the fight, Tony being wounded and everyone else being disintegrated. Mentioning it to the others simply alters that, hence the Butterfly effect. Even the simplest thing can change the future. So had Strange told the others, it could have had a very different outcome and they would never win or defeat Thanos So you're basically saying that if Starlord hadn't acted like such a big dick and they had succeeded in getting the gauntlet off Thanos' hand before Strange could give Thanos the time stone, then that would've resulted in a losing scenario. In that case, shouldn't Strange have said something like "Hey, stop, whatever you do, don't take the gauntlet off Thanos' hand! We need Thanos to keep the gauntlet." And you're also basically saying that if Thanos had stabbed Stark through the heart instead of the shoulder and killed Stark, then that would've also resulted in a losing scenario. In that case, was Strange just praying and hoping they would be lucky that Thanos didn't have better aim? Like I said, really bad writing in Infinity War! That very well could have been the case. Quill was always going to be a dick like that and they were never going to actually succeed in getting that glove off. Everything in that fight was meant to happen. It's not bad writing. You just clearly don't understand it.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 29, 2018 21:50:06 GMT
So you're basically saying that if Starlord hadn't acted like such a big dick and they had succeeded in getting the gauntlet off Thanos' hand before Strange could give Thanos the time stone, then that would've resulted in a losing scenario. In that case, shouldn't Strange have said something like "Hey, stop, whatever you do, don't take the gauntlet off Thanos' hand! We need Thanos to keep the gauntlet." And you're also basically saying that if Thanos had stabbed Stark through the heart instead of the shoulder and killed Stark, then that would've also resulted in a losing scenario. In that case, was Strange just praying and hoping they would be lucky that Thanos didn't have better aim? Like I said, really bad writing in Infinity War! That very well could have been the case. Quill was always going to be a dick like that and they were never going to actually succeed in getting that glove off. Everything in that fight was meant to happen. It's not bad writing. You just clearly don't understand it. 1st, Strange doesn't know that everything in that fight would happen the way it did. Strange says he know what the winning scenario out of 14 million possible scenarios is, but Strange doesn't know for sure which of the 14 million possible scenarios is going to actually happen. Now if Strange had told them the 1 winning scenario, then that would guarantee that it would happen. But by taking that secret to the grave, there's no guarantee which of the 14 million possible scenarios will happen. 2nd, so you are basically saying that Strange's entire plan for saving the universe was to just pray and hope they were lucky that Thanos didn't have better aim and would miss Stark's heart and stab Stark through the shoulder instead of the heart? Like I said, really bad writing in Infinity War!
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Apr 29, 2018 23:15:19 GMT
That very well could have been the case. Quill was always going to be a dick like that and they were never going to actually succeed in getting that glove off. Everything in that fight was meant to happen. It's not bad writing. You just clearly don't understand it. 1st, Strange doesn't know that everything in that fight would happen the way it did. Strange says he know what the winning scenario out of 14 million possible scenarios is, but Strange doesn't know for sure which of the 14 million possible scenarios is going to actually happen. Now if Strange had told them the 1 winning scenario, then that would guarantee that it would happen. But by taking that secret to the grave, there's no guarantee which of the 14 million possible scenarios will happen. 2nd, so you are basically saying that Strange's entire plan for saving the universe was to just pray and hope they were lucky that Thanos didn't have better aim and would miss Stark's heart and stab Stark through the shoulder instead of the heart? Like I said, really bad writing in Infinity War! Alright, lets go by your logic then. He knows there's only one future they can win and he doesn't know what it is exactly other than just offering the time stone to Thanos but it will still come at a great cost (everyone dying). You just saidd it yourself, he doesn't know exactly what will happen if he offers the time stone, so why risk it right away?? They had to try something else, getting the glove off. Offering the stone was just a last resort if they couldn't do it. And yeah, Quill fucked up but that's just his character, but it's not bad writing.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 30, 2018 1:16:02 GMT
1st, Strange doesn't know that everything in that fight would happen the way it did. Strange says he know what the winning scenario out of 14 million possible scenarios is, but Strange doesn't know for sure which of the 14 million possible scenarios is going to actually happen. Now if Strange had told them the 1 winning scenario, then that would guarantee that it would happen. But by taking that secret to the grave, there's no guarantee which of the 14 million possible scenarios will happen. 2nd, so you are basically saying that Strange's entire plan for saving the universe was to just pray and hope they were lucky that Thanos didn't have better aim and would miss Stark's heart and stab Stark through the shoulder instead of the heart? Like I said, really bad writing in Infinity War! Alright, lets go by your logic then. He knows there's only one future they can win and he doesn't know what it is exactly other than just offering the time stone to Thanos but it will still come at a great cost (everyone dying). You just saidd it yourself, he doesn't know exactly what will happen if he offers the time stone, so why risk it right away?? They had to try something else, getting the glove off. Offering the stone was just a last resort if they couldn't do it. And yeah, Quill fucked up but that's just his character, but it's not bad writing. You don't seem to get it so I'll explain it to you again. Strange said he's been through all 14 million possible scenarios and there's only 1 winning scenario. And that 1 winning scenario doesn't include taking the gauntlet off Thanos' hand. So why even attempt to take the gauntlet off Thanos' hand when he knows that would only result in a losing scenario? As for what Strange knows, Strange doesn't know what decisions Stark and the rest will make after he gives the time stone to Thanos, but Strange does know that the only winning scenario is to give the time stone to Thanos and that NOT giving the time stone to Thanos would result in a losing scenario. So why the fuck wouldn't Strange just give the time stone to Thanos when they first see him since that's the ONLY way they'll be on the correct path to winning?
Why the fuck would Strange risk the losing path of trying to get the gauntlet off Thanos' hand BEFORE taking the correct path of giving the time stone to Thanos? Either Doctor Strange wanted Thanos to win or that's just really bad writing!
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Apr 30, 2018 1:34:06 GMT
Alright, lets go by your logic then. He knows there's only one future they can win and he doesn't know what it is exactly other than just offering the time stone to Thanos but it will still come at a great cost (everyone dying). You just saidd it yourself, he doesn't know exactly what will happen if he offers the time stone, so why risk it right away?? They had to try something else, getting the glove off. Offering the stone was just a last resort if they couldn't do it. And yeah, Quill fucked up but that's just his character, but it's not bad writing. You don't seem to get it so I'll explain it to you again. Strange said he's been through all 14 million possible scenarios and there's only 1 winning scenario. And that 1 winning scenario doesn't include taking the gauntlet off Thanos' hand. So why even attempt to take the gauntlet off Thanos' hand when he knows that would only result in a losing scenario? As for what Strange knows, Strange doesn't know what decisions Stark and the rest will make after he gives the time stone to Thanos, but Strange does know that the only winning scenario is to give the time stone to Thanos and that NOT giving the time stone to Thanos would result in a losing scenario. So why the fuck wouldn't Strange just give the time stone to Thanos when they first see him since that's the ONLY way they'll be on the correct path to winning?
Why the fuck would Strange risk the losing path of trying to get the gauntlet off Thanos' hand BEFORE taking the correct path of giving the time stone to Thanos? Either Doctor Strange wanted Thanos to win or that's just really bad writing!And how do you know that taking off the gauntlet wasn't part of that one future??
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 30, 2018 1:37:22 GMT
You don't seem to get it so I'll explain it to you again. Strange said he's been through all 14 million possible scenarios and there's only 1 winning scenario. And that 1 winning scenario doesn't include taking the gauntlet off Thanos' hand. So why even attempt to take the gauntlet off Thanos' hand when he knows that would only result in a losing scenario? As for what Strange knows, Strange doesn't know what decisions Stark and the rest will make after he gives the time stone to Thanos, but Strange does know that the only winning scenario is to give the time stone to Thanos and that NOT giving the time stone to Thanos would result in a losing scenario. So why the fuck wouldn't Strange just give the time stone to Thanos when they first see him since that's the ONLY way they'll be on the correct path to winning?
Why the fuck would Strange risk the losing path of trying to get the gauntlet off Thanos' hand BEFORE taking the correct path of giving the time stone to Thanos? Either Doctor Strange wanted Thanos to win or that's just really bad writing!And how do you know that taking off the gauntlet wasn't part of that one future?? Well, they failed to take the gauntlet of Thanos' hand. So if taking the gauntlet of Thanos' hand was part of the winning scenario, then they've already lost and can't win. So no need for Avengers 4.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Apr 30, 2018 1:53:49 GMT
And how do you know that taking off the gauntlet wasn't part of that one future?? Well, they failed to take the gauntlet of Thanos' hand. So if taking the gauntlet of Thanos' hand was part of the winning scenario, then they've already lost and can't win. So no need for Avengers 4. But Strange said it would come at a great cost defeating Thanks. Had they succeeded and got the glove off, yeah, no one dies, and no great cost. So if Strange was going down the path of defeating Thanos, which he explicitly said would come at a cost, then yeah, they were never going to get that glove off and Quill would fuck everything up. It's not bad writing. It's just you nitpicking because you're jealous IW is a huge success
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Post by Nicko's Nose on Apr 30, 2018 1:56:25 GMT
Well, they failed to take the gauntlet of Thanos' hand. So if taking the gauntlet of Thanos' hand was part of the winning scenario, then they've already lost and can't win. So no need for Avengers 4. But Strange said it would come at a great cost defeating Thanks. Had they succeeded and got the glove off, yeah, no one dies, and no great cost. So if Strange was going down the path of defeating Thanos, which he explicitly said would come at a cost, then yeah, they were never going to get that glove off and Quill would fuck everything up. It's not bad writing. It's just you nitpicking because you're jealous IW is a huge success Huge success? It only has a critics score of 84%. Derp.
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Post by seahawksraawk00 on Apr 30, 2018 2:00:31 GMT
But Strange said it would come at a great cost defeating Thanks. Had they succeeded and got the glove off, yeah, no one dies, and no great cost. So if Strange was going down the path of defeating Thanos, which he explicitly said would come at a cost, then yeah, they were never going to get that glove off and Quill would fuck everything up. It's not bad writing. It's just you nitpicking because you're jealous IW is a huge success Huge success? It only has a critics score of 84%. Derp. I would say that's a huge success. Some of the greatest films out there are in the 80 percentage on RT.
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Post by Nicko's Nose on Apr 30, 2018 2:01:56 GMT
Huge success? It only has a critics score of 84%. Derp. I would say that's a huge success. Some of the greatest films out there are in the 80 percentage on RT. That’s my point hence the “derp”. DC-Fan suggested 84% was a low score.
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NormanClature
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Post by NormanClature on Apr 30, 2018 2:11:16 GMT
I would say that's a huge success. Some of the greatest films out there are in the 80 percentage on RT. That’s my point hence the “derp”. DC-Fan suggested 84% was a low score. I suspect a lot of critics who have rated the movie, haven't watched all of the movies leading up to this point. IW is made for the people who have invested their time and money in following the MCU.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2018 4:14:03 GMT
Alright, lets go by your logic then. He knows there's only one future they can win and he doesn't know what it is exactly other than just offering the time stone to Thanos but it will still come at a great cost (everyone dying). You just saidd it yourself, he doesn't know exactly what will happen if he offers the time stone, so why risk it right away?? They had to try something else, getting the glove off. Offering the stone was just a last resort if they couldn't do it. And yeah, Quill fucked up but that's just his character, but it's not bad writing. You don't seem to get it so I'll explain it to you again. Strange said he's been through all 14 million possible scenarios and there's only 1 winning scenario. And that 1 winning scenario doesn't include taking the gauntlet off Thanos' hand. So why even attempt to take the gauntlet off Thanos' hand when he knows that would only result in a losing scenario? As for what Strange knows, Strange doesn't know what decisions Stark and the rest will make after he gives the time stone to Thanos, but Strange does know that the only winning scenario is to give the time stone to Thanos and that NOT giving the time stone to Thanos would result in a losing scenario. So why the fuck wouldn't Strange just give the time stone to Thanos when they first see him since that's the ONLY way they'll be on the correct path to winning?
Why the fuck would Strange risk the losing path of trying to get the gauntlet off Thanos' hand BEFORE taking the correct path of giving the time stone to Thanos? Either Doctor Strange wanted Thanos to win or that's just really bad writing!Stop being dumb or pretending to be dumb
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Post by kleinreturns on Apr 30, 2018 4:26:20 GMT
I was disappointed that we didn't actually see Thanos/Black Order getting the Power Stone from Xandar Prime. Imagine if the movie opened with Thanos destroying the entire planet with it in the first 5 minutes.
and although i liked Ebony Maw, i liked the Other and his voice from the Avengers/GOTG better.
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Post by Skaathar on Apr 30, 2018 6:21:10 GMT
I thought it kinda weird that Thor didn't use any of his thundergod powers against Thanos in the beginning. Also, where was Valkyrie and Korg?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 30, 2018 12:56:50 GMT
My big like is simply that they aptly pulled this off. It could have been a bigger mess with less people and yet they managed to do an extremely capable mash-up.
I loved the Dr. Strange/Thanos fight. It was the best use of both of their powers.
The thing I disliked the most was Thanos. I don't buy the obsession with the universe depopulation without his love for Death as a character or as a figment of his loopy imagination.
The universe wasn't actually shown to be overpopulated so it would have been fine to use that as a noble scam to the heroes, but actually have him be insane enough to offer half the universe to the person he loves.
Basically for this plot to make sense to me, he has to love death more than he does life since there is no evidence at all that the universe is in enough trouble to need saving.
Another dislike is Thanos varying degrees of power, but that is a common thing when you are fighting things that are way overpowered. They do it with Thor too, who should have been able to wipe out the entire army on his own.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Apr 30, 2018 13:00:25 GMT
Truly amazing film. I haven't been on in a few days and the entire thing has been dissected to death I'm sure, but here's my two cents anyway.
This is Marvel's Empire Strikes Back. The bad guy won this film, and he won big. Bold choice to take so many heroes off the board like that, the marketing for A4 will be bonkers. People are probably complaining: "Why kill off so many heroes when you know they'll be back in the next one? This film had no stakes." First of all, I think Gamora and Loki are permanently dead. Secondly, I don't believe all of the fallen heroes will return. I think they'll have to fight their way back from the soul stone and not all of them will make it. But finally, it isn't about them being dead, it's about them being decommissioned. Much like Han at the end of ESB. They didn't have to kill him to make it feel like a crippling blow to the rebellion and Star Wars fans alike. Exactly zero people have ever complained about Empire having no stakes because Han comes back at the beginning of ROTJ.
They technically aren't dead, simply removed from the universe. And much like the deforming of various heroes earlier in the film was a temporary effect, this too can be undone. Marvel isn't stupid, and they don't think we are, either. They know that we know the heroes can come back. They didn't work so hard to acquire Spider-Man, or give us a billion dollar Black Panther, or announce Guardians 3 just to kill these characters off and think we'd believe they're gone for good. But removing them from the story absolutely raises the stakes for the next film because you finally believe there's a menace they may not be able to defeat. Marvel knows you want these heroes back, hence the hopeful post-credit scene referencing one of their most powerful cosmic heroes. All is not lost, but our heroes are certainly at their lowest point and the universe is on the brink of destruction with a madman wielding ultimate power. Honestly I couldn't have asked for a better ending and I'm already beyond hyped for the next installment.
Specific likes: Thanos is the villain we've been waiting for. Better than the comic version if you ask me. You can't empathize with his view like Killmonger, but you can at least see how his twisted logic works. A villain who comes across as so purely evil yet you kind of respect him for his vision and willingness to act-- if for no other reason than he seems like a formidable foe. And is he ever.
Doctor Strange was the standout hero in this flick for me. I didn't love his solo movie and I've never been a fan of the character in the comics. But the inventive nature of the action sequences were visually and intellectually stimulating to say the least. He's a hero who doesn't punch his way out of problems, he thinks his way around them. And I think he's secretly going to save the day in A4. Remember when he said he saw 14 million scenarios and they only won once? Well he handed the time stone to Thanos and told Tony 'there was no other way,' at the end. That's the action that led to their only victory, I'll wager. It's a moment that's really going to pay off down the line, I know it.
All of the character interactions were spectacular in terms of action as well as banter. Strange/Stark, Star-Lord/Stark, Thor/Guardians, Bucky/Rocket(!!!). Everyone, and I mean everyone got to kick a little ass and have a little fun. Okoye, Wong, everyone. When you can do that and still pack a film with these emotional stakes, you've done something right. Is there a hero who didn't get to do something awesome in at least one action sequence?
The moment of the film for me might still be Cap standing up to Thanos. Wish it wasn't in the trailers, it really would've been a total goosebumps moment if you weren't expecting it. Thanos expression is the best. 'Who is this little man and how have I not broken his will?' On a related note, Marvel threw us a curve because I was expecting both Cap and Tony to die and instead both survived and just about everyone else bit the big one. (More thoughts on that later.)
The cameos. Dinklage! Red Skull!!!
Specific dislikes: Plot contrivances like Peter not being able to contain himself when they almost had Thanos beat; particularly dumb because he just tried talking Drax out of doing the same thing earlier, and it was doubly awkward because Tony was trying to talk him down despite being on the other side of an almost identical situation at the end of Civil War.
Not really sure why Strange agreed to keep going to Titan even though he knew it was a bad idea. Tony doesn't really make a compelling argument but Strange just goes with it because well, the plot needs them to be somewhere else.
Didn't love the lack of Hulk. It's not really explained why he wouldn't come out, seems like a major personality shift for the big guy. I did enjoy seeing more of Ruffalo but one big Hulk smash somewhere would've been fun. I guess there was one hero who didn't get to do something cool after all.
Also thought the Black Order were kind of uneven. They'd be bad ass one moment and then get their asses handed to them the next. None of them had particularly memorable deaths. That's what minions are for I suppose, but I could've gotten more out of them.
Predictions: I mentioned it earlier but again I believe the fallen heroes will have to fight their way out of the soul stone in some capacity and not all of them will make it. Spider-Man, Star-Lord, Doctor Strange, Black Panther are all locks to return as far as I'm concerned. I'd also expect Drax since killing Thanos is kind of his thing. I'm fairly certain Gamora and Loki are dead since they didn't simply fade away, they were straight up murdered earlier in the story. Bodies count for a lot in these scenarios, Game of Thrones taught me that.
It's worth noting all of the original Avengers survived, and that means something from a narrative sense. Instead of simply fading into the night, these icons are going to go out in a blaze of glory in the next installment (well some of them at least). Marvel wants to give a noble end to the characters who started it all in phase 1.
So yeah, all in all a tremendous film. The villain won, the heroes are down but not out and the future is uncertain for many of our favorite characters. Not sure what else you can ask of an action blockbuster. Going to see it again this Friday and I'm excited as hell for Captain Marvel next year. Avengers 4 will be nuts, I promise you that. As great as this was, A4 might just top it.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 30, 2018 13:12:00 GMT
I would say that's a huge success. Some of the greatest films out there are in the 80 percentage on RT. That’s my point hence the “derp”. DC-Fan suggested 84% was a low score. It's a pathetic, horrible score. Black Panther got a 97. Completely on merit.
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Post by DSDSquared on Apr 30, 2018 14:41:24 GMT
I hop that DC Fan just pretends to be this dumb.
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Post by coldenhaulfield on Apr 30, 2018 14:47:29 GMT
I hop that DC Fan just pretends to be this dumb. Really? Do you play hopscotch?
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