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May 29, 2018 0:10:49 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 0:10:49 GMT
That's nice. I have two [web sites] myself. Can you link either? I can. I choose not to. But you didn't reference "everyone", Arlon. You said " the atheists here". You've been asked to demonstrate that the atheists here do actually believe as you claimed. You've run away from that request ever since. This is no surprise - you do this literally every time anybody asks you to demonstrate any claim you make.
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May 29, 2018 0:27:13 GMT
Post by Arlon10 on May 29, 2018 0:27:13 GMT
I can. I choose not to. But you didn't reference "everyone", Arlon. You said " the atheists here". You've been asked to demonstrate that the atheists here do actually believe as you claimed. You've run away from that request ever since. This is no surprise - you do this literally every time anybody asks you to demonstrate any claim you make. I totally do not understand what your problem is. What difference does it make? At least two people, or two board IDs anyway, calling themselves/himself/herself "determinist(s)" said that there is no free will and everything a person does is predetermined by their physical makeup (which I note here is "determined" at conception). I am not scrolling back through the board history to find them. If you prefer to believe I dreamed it all, rather than that you missed something, then do so. I really do not care. It's like you live to find fault in me and get desperate a lot.
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May 29, 2018 0:31:00 GMT
Post by goz on May 29, 2018 0:31:00 GMT
A "potential" life is "only" forming at conception. While it is a natural process of gestation, it is still not a natural part of the world as a fully fledged and oxygen breathing human individual. It is dependent on it's host and is not a fully fledged lifeform, the mother is and as a lifeform, she gets total right and total autonomy over her body. You are female, why wouldn't you feel this way yourself?
Just what exactly do you propose to do to "potential" mothers who abort their fetuses anyway? Imagine the human rights issues and not to mention backstreet abortion clinics that would be set up that would have the potential to cause more harm and societal issues. It is dangerous to dictate what a person chooses to do with her own life. That is what came first. If someone you knew and loved and cared about and you found out they had an abortion, would you then judge them as a murderer?
The majority of abortions are performed in the first third of term anyway, after that stage, the mother would know what she wants. It is a very, very small percentage of later stage abortions that are performed and these would be performed for health risks only to the mother.
I don't feel this way, because I believe that it is infanticide. There are plenty of women who hate abortion and want it to become illegal throughout the world again. Some of the biggest voices against abortion are female, & some of the biggest voices that are for it are male. There are plenty of institutions that can & do help pregnant women, with their children. Abortion is an act of despair. ...which is exactly why it must be legal.
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May 29, 2018 3:13:55 GMT
Post by clusium on May 29, 2018 3:13:55 GMT
I don't feel this way, because I believe that it is infanticide. There are plenty of women who hate abortion and want it to become illegal throughout the world again. Some of the biggest voices against abortion are female, & some of the biggest voices that are for it are male. There are plenty of institutions that can & do help pregnant women, with their children. Abortion is an act of despair. ...which is exactly why it must be legal. No!!!! There must be ways to help the parents with their child, so they do not kill him/her. That includes giving them the opportunity to give the child up for adoption. Abortion is infanticide, & in no way is a solution.
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May 29, 2018 3:14:09 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 3:14:09 GMT
Give me examples of the "real science" which indicates that foetuses have conscious interests and desires invested in their own future which are being transgressed when the mother chooses to have an abortion. It has already been explained by the ancient Hindus that there is no indirect way to perceive the atman (self). Direct perception of it is the only way. Quite many people claim to be capable of such perception. We have their testimony, but just as the ancient Hindus said, you can't know they are right without your own direct perception. Although science is not capable of demonstrating the existence of the atman, it is also not capable of proving it does not exist. So first you claim that all the "real science" supports your assertion that the foetus has a sense of personhood, and then when asked for examples of this science, you come up with the "ancient Hindus" and then state that it can't be demonstrated by science. What science does indicate is that consciousness can only form within brains of a sufficient complexity, which would exclude foetuses.
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May 29, 2018 4:57:54 GMT
Post by clusium on May 29, 2018 4:57:54 GMT
I don't feel this way, because I believe that it is infanticide. There are plenty of women who hate abortion and want it to become illegal throughout the world again. Some of the biggest voices against abortion are female, & some of the biggest voices that are for it are male. There are plenty of institutions that can & do help pregnant women, with their children. Abortion is an act of despair. How can it be infanticide, when it's not an infant? It hasn't even been birthed. I hate to rain on your parade, but there would be more women for pro-choice, than anti-abortion and that is why it is a futile argument. We can't possibly know how every single adult in the world feels about it, but I'd say there would be more women for it than men.
I'm sure it's not an easy decision for any woman to make, and having others prodding and poking and judging them for a basic human right of choice is what is despairing and disturbing. You CANNOT control the life decisions that other's make, especially when it is nobody else's business, plain and simple. Tend your hands to your own fire, otherwise you might just get burned.
You have evaded the question I asked you about how you would feel about someone you loved and cared about and found out she had an abortion, and if you would you judge them harshly? I'd let them know that I believe that I still love them, but, would have really wished that they hadn't had the abortion.
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RedRuth1966
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Post by RedRuth1966 on May 29, 2018 7:18:12 GMT
I don't feel this way, because I believe that it is infanticide. There are plenty of women who hate abortion and want it to become illegal throughout the world again. Some of the biggest voices against abortion are female, & some of the biggest voices that are for it are male. There are plenty of institutions that can & do help pregnant women, with their children. Abortion is an act of despair. What utter nonsense, the Yes campaign was led by women for women, that certainly can;t be said for the No campaign. A large majority of Irish women voted to legalise abortion. What exactly do you think would happen if you got your wish of making abortion illegal worldwide? According to the WHO it wouldn't make a difference to the incidence of abortion. Also according to the WHO It is estimated that of the 210 million pregnancies that occur each year, some 80 million are unintended. In 2008, 21.6 million unsafe abortions were estimated to have occurred, causing the deaths of 47 000 women. Deaths due to unsafe abortion are mainly caused by severe infections or bleeding resulting from the unsafe abortion procedure, or due to organ damage. If you get your wish how many more women will die? I'm pro choice for pragmatic reasons as much as anything else, people like you want us all to go back to the days of unsafe illegal abortions. How compassionate.
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May 29, 2018 8:10:08 GMT
Post by Cody™ on May 29, 2018 8:10:08 GMT
I don't feel this way, because I believe that it is infanticide. There are plenty of women who hate abortion and want it to become illegal throughout the world again. Some of the biggest voices against abortion are female, & some of the biggest voices that are for it are male. There are plenty of institutions that can & do help pregnant women, with their children. Abortion is an act of despair. What utter nonsense, the Yes campaign was led by women for women, that certainly can;t be said for the No campaign. A large majority of Irish women voted to legalise abortion. What exactly do you think would happen if you got your wish of making abortion illegal worldwide? According to the WHO it wouldn't make a difference to the incidence of abortion. Also according to the WHO It is estimated that of the 210 million pregnancies that occur each year, some 80 million are unintended. In 2008, 21.6 million unsafe abortions were estimated to have occurred, causing the deaths of 47 000 women. Deaths due to unsafe abortion are mainly caused by severe infections or bleeding resulting from the unsafe abortion procedure, or due to organ damage. If you get your wish how many more women will die? I'm pro choice for pragmatic reasons as much as anything else, people like you want us all to go back to the days of unsafe illegal abortions. How compassionate. Those 46,000 women would likely still be alive if they didn’t go through with an abortion in the first place, unsafe or not. Also according to your statistic 21.6 million pre-born babies were terminated. Yet your compassion is for the thousands of women who also perished after attempting to kill their child. Seems you’re rather selective with your compassion.
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May 29, 2018 8:36:15 GMT
Post by phludowin on May 29, 2018 8:36:15 GMT
Also according to your statistic 21.6 million pre-born babies were terminated. Yet your compassion is for the thousands of women who also perished after attempting to kill their child. Seems you’re rather selective with your compassion. As are you. Last year, over a billion pigs were killed worldwide. What do you have to say about that?
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May 29, 2018 8:48:31 GMT
Post by Cody™ on May 29, 2018 8:48:31 GMT
Also according to your statistic 21.6 million pre-born babies were terminated. Yet your compassion is for the thousands of women who also perished after attempting to kill their child. Seems you’re rather selective with your compassion. As are you. Last year, over a billion pigs were killed worldwide. What do you have to say about that? Pigs are not human. And FYI I condemn animal cruelty. Ruth supports infanticide. That’s the difference between us.
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May 29, 2018 9:00:47 GMT
Post by Arlon10 on May 29, 2018 9:00:47 GMT
It has already been explained by the ancient Hindus that there is no indirect way to perceive the atman (self). Direct perception of it is the only way. Quite many people claim to be capable of such perception. We have their testimony, but just as the ancient Hindus said, you can't know they are right without your own direct perception. Although science is not capable of demonstrating the existence of the atman, it is also not capable of proving it does not exist. So first you claim that all the "real science" supports your assertion that the foetus has a sense of personhood, and then when asked for examples of this science, you come up with the "ancient Hindus" and then state that it can't be demonstrated by science. What science does indicate is that consciousness can only form within brains of a sufficient complexity, which would exclude foetuses. I have indeed said that science shows that the physical human being begins at conception. I have never said however when the mind, soul, consciousness, or whatever you choose to call the part of the human that is free to make choices apparently independent of the physical body enters that body. I have allowed the assumption that the soul attaches at conception because proofs are not forthcoming and some assumption or other must be made. Your claim than any "science" indicates what "consciousness" might require is absurd.
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May 29, 2018 9:35:38 GMT
Post by phludowin on May 29, 2018 9:35:38 GMT
And fetuses aren't persons. And FYI I condemn animal cruelty. Ruth supports infanticide. That’s the difference between us. Animal cruelty and infanticide don't have much to do with each other. You'd have a point if fetuses experienced more pain during an abortion than pigs during slaughter. My guess: They don't.
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May 29, 2018 11:43:02 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 11:43:02 GMT
I can. I choose not to. But you didn't reference "everyone", Arlon. You said " the atheists here". You've been asked to demonstrate that the atheists here do actually believe as you claimed. You've run away from that request ever since. This is no surprise - you do this literally every time anybody asks you to demonstrate any claim you make. I totally do not understand what your problem is. But of course you don't. The idea that you might make a claim, and have somebody ask you to support it, and then you actually do support it... that's completely foreign to you. Guess what? This is one way in which you misunderstand science. In science you don't get to make claims and then when somebody asks you to back it up you just say "You have no authority to make that demand! I have a website you know! Look at that shiny thing over there!" In science and the world of the rational, people back up their claims. You should try it some time. It would make you look a bit less stupid.
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May 29, 2018 13:27:39 GMT
Post by clusium on May 29, 2018 13:27:39 GMT
I'd let them know that I believe that I still love them, but, would have really wished that they hadn't had the abortion. Ahhhhhh, but your stance is also one of abortion being murder. Unless I have misinterpreted what you commented earlier.
If it is murder, and murder is seen at the high end of the scale of crimes, then you must feel it should be illegal then. If that is the case, and you had the courage of your convictions, what do you want to do to these murderers of fetuses? Would you throw your friend or family member that had an abortion to the wolves, because you see them as a murderer and want to see punished severely for what they have done? Bear in mind too, that murderers usually get life sentences and executed in some states in the US. I already answered your question. For the record, I don't believe in Capital Punishment either. I consider that murder too.
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May 29, 2018 13:43:15 GMT
Post by clusium on May 29, 2018 13:43:15 GMT
I don't feel this way, because I believe that it is infanticide. There are plenty of women who hate abortion and want it to become illegal throughout the world again. Some of the biggest voices against abortion are female, & some of the biggest voices that are for it are male. There are plenty of institutions that can & do help pregnant women, with their children. Abortion is an act of despair. What utter nonsense, the Yes campaign was led by women for women, that certainly can;t be said for the No campaign. A large majority of Irish women voted to legalise abortion. What exactly do you think would happen if you got your wish of making abortion illegal worldwide? According to the WHO it wouldn't make a difference to the incidence of abortion. Also according to the WHO It is estimated that of the 210 million pregnancies that occur each year, some 80 million are unintended. In 2008, 21.6 million unsafe abortions were estimated to have occurred, causing the deaths of 47 000 women. Deaths due to unsafe abortion are mainly caused by severe infections or bleeding resulting from the unsafe abortion procedure, or due to organ damage. If you get your wish how many more women will die? I'm pro choice for pragmatic reasons as much as anything else, people like you want us all to go back to the days of unsafe illegal abortions. How compassionate. In Ireland, abortion was already legal for cases where the woman's life was in danger. And yes, there ARE women who vigilantly oppose abortion, just as there are men who vigilantly advocate for it. One such pro-life woman is Rebecca Kiessling. You can look her up on Google. One such pro-abortion man was Dr. Henry Morgentaler. Again, you can look him up on Google too.
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May 29, 2018 20:41:25 GMT
Post by drystyx on May 29, 2018 20:41:25 GMT
Whew! That was close. I hope they never decide to finally acknowledge me as a human being.
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May 29, 2018 21:23:26 GMT
Post by phludowin on May 29, 2018 21:23:26 GMT
And yes, there ARE women who vigilantly oppose abortion And these women have every right to not have abortions. However, they shouldn't have the right to dictate their opinions to other women. just as there are men who vigilantly advocate for it. I don't believe there are many men who are pro-abortion. But plenty of men are pro choice. I am one of them. One such pro-life woman is Rebecca Kiessling. You can look her up on Google. One such pro-abortion man was Dr. Henry Morgentaler. Again, you can look him up on Google too. And one man who was anti-choice and against abortions was Adolf Hitler. So what? And Henry Morgentaler was pro-choice. If you claim he was pro-abortion, you better show evidence. Most studies show that there is no significant difference between men and women when it comes to advocacy of choice.
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May 29, 2018 21:36:47 GMT
Post by drystyx on May 29, 2018 21:36:47 GMT
And one man who was anti-choice and against abortions was Adolf Hitler. You're going to have to rewrite History and brainwash people another century or so to enforce that pipe dream. Hitler aborted plenty of babies. Of course, perhaps you're one of those raving lunatics who believe in the integrity of Hitler when he made claims. He said lots of things. The difference between rational people and raving lunatics is that rational people don't give any credibility to anything Hitler said. Sorry about the facts. Maybe in a few hundred years, your brainwashing will erase all the facts.
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May 29, 2018 22:33:01 GMT
Post by goz on May 29, 2018 22:33:01 GMT
And one man who was anti-choice and against abortions was Adolf Hitler. You're going to have to rewrite History and brainwash people another century or so to enforce that pipe dream. Hitler aborted plenty of babies. Of course, perhaps you're one of those raving lunatics who believe in the integrity of Hitler when he made claims. He said lots of things. The difference between rational people and raving lunatics is that rational people don't give any credibility to anything Hitler said. Sorry about the facts. Maybe in a few hundred years, your brainwashing will erase all the facts. He was against it for German women, definitely. He wanted to increase the German population as a whole and have it populate Europe. But he was certainly in favour of it for “undesirable” people, such as racial minorities, gypsies, and people with disabilities. After all, he was a eugenicist.
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May 29, 2018 22:45:08 GMT
Post by clusium on May 29, 2018 22:45:08 GMT
And yes, there ARE women who vigilantly oppose abortion And these women have every right to not have abortions. However, they shouldn't have the right to dictate their opinions to other women. just as there are men who vigilantly advocate for it. I don't believe there are many men who are pro-abortion. But plenty of men are pro choice. I am one of them. One such pro-life woman is Rebecca Kiessling. You can look her up on Google. One such pro-abortion man was Dr. Henry Morgentaler. Again, you can look him up on Google too. And one man who was anti-choice and against abortions was Adolf Hitler. So what? And Henry Morgentaler was pro-choice. If you claim he was pro-abortion, you better show evidence. Most studies show that there is no significant difference between men and women when it comes to advocacy of choice. Adolf Hitler was only against abortion when it came to what he viewed as Aryan. All the abortions done by Morgentaler are my evidence.
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