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May 29, 2018 23:11:34 GMT
Post by clusium on May 29, 2018 23:11:34 GMT
I already answered your question. For the record, I don't believe in Capital Punishment either. I consider that murder too. I don't believe in capital punishment either, so the state is then committing murder. Murder is most foul. Therefore, if one considers something murder, under the laws of most countries, murder must be punished.
As far as being anti-abortionist and wanting it to made illegal—because this is what they want—by making it illegal, those that murder their unborn fetus must be punished. I am asking, do you feel that abortionists and those women who choose to abort their children should be punished to the full extent of the law for murder? That is what would happen to people, if it is made illegal. Let me respond by asking you this question, Toasted_Cheese? What do you think should happen to parents who kill their children after birth, such as Susan Smith, or Andrea Yates?
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Post by goz on May 29, 2018 23:14:36 GMT
And these women have every right to not have abortions. However, they shouldn't have the right to dictate their opinions to other women. I don't believe there are many men who are pro-abortion. But plenty of men are pro choice. I am one of them. And one man who was anti-choice and against abortions was Adolf Hitler. So what? And Henry Morgentaler was pro-choice. If you claim he was pro-abortion, you better show evidence. Most studies show that there is no significant difference between men and women when it comes to advocacy of choice. Adolf Hitler was only against abortion when it came to what he viewed as Aryan. All the abortions done by Morgentaler are my evidence.
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May 30, 2018 4:16:01 GMT
Post by clusium on May 30, 2018 4:16:01 GMT
Let me respond by asking you this question, Toasted_Cheese? What do you think should happen to parents who kill their children after birth, such as Susan Smith, or Andrea Yates? Strawman! We are not discussing the legality aspect of already birthed children who have been murdered. I was asking you about what you think the legal ramifications should be for those that abort their fetesus? This is your anti-abortionist stance, not mine. Nope!!! Not a strawman!!! There is no difference between killing one's own children before birth or after!!!! What about if a woman gives birth, but, immediately kills the baby?!?!?! 15 Year Old Girl Charged With Murdering Her New Born Baby
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May 30, 2018 5:56:39 GMT
Post by phludowin on May 30, 2018 5:56:39 GMT
You're going to have to rewrite History and brainwash people another century or so to enforce that pipe dream. Hitler aborted plenty of babies. Of course, perhaps you're one of those raving lunatics who believe in the integrity of Hitler when he made claims. He said lots of things. The difference between rational people and raving lunatics is that rational people don't give any credibility to anything Hitler said. Sorry about the facts. Maybe in a few hundred years, your brainwashing will erase all the facts. He was against it for German women, definitely. He wanted to increase the German population as a whole and have it populate Europe. But he was certainly in favour of it for “undesirable” people, such as racial minorities, gypsies, and people with disabilities. After all, he was a eugenicist. In short: He was anti-choice. Fact is: During the Third Reich, anti-abortion laws were made more severe. But I agree that Hitler was against abortions for German women only. But he was anti-choice for everybody.
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May 30, 2018 6:07:54 GMT
Post by phludowin on May 30, 2018 6:07:54 GMT
All the abortions done by Morgentaler are my evidence. Read the quote provided by goz . There is no evidence that Morgentaler wanted women to choose abortion when faced with a pregnancy. Claiming he was would be like claiming doctors who treat cancer are pro cancer. Or that dentists are pro parodontitis. Or fireworkers pro arson.
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Post by goz on May 30, 2018 8:04:07 GMT
Strawman! We are not discussing the legality aspect of already birthed children who have been murdered. I was asking you about what you think the legal ramifications should be for those that abort their fetesus? This is your anti-abortionist stance, not mine. Nope!!! Not a strawman!!! There is no difference between killing one's own children before birth or after!!!! What about if a woman gives birth, but, immediately kills the baby?!?!?! 15 Year Old Girl Charged With Murdering Her New Born Baby@clusiam I hope that you read all posts on here as I wish to point out a previous post of mine to @cody. The concern I have is that religious people have a black and white view of ethical and moral issues in this world, that are becoming more and more complex and shades of grey, with scientific progress that makes such black and white views, less relevant. In the case that you are proposing, there is actually a VERY great difference between aborting a potential human without sentience at say 0-12 weeks and a newborn baby. You really should know and recognise the difference. That you equate them , is deeply worrying.
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May 30, 2018 13:50:27 GMT
Post by clusium on May 30, 2018 13:50:27 GMT
Haven't had a chance to respond earlier, but goz has already commented on similar to what I would have said in response. I am going to comment anyway.
You are attempting to sidestep and evade, by not "differentiating" between the 2 and citing both as murder; the aborted fetus and a birthed child. In the example you have cited, I would say a woman who kills her child after it is birthed, would have some serious emotional and psychological issues. One could also say, if she didn't want the child, she could have gotten an abortion. We would also need to know all the circumstances, however, the mind of the woman who chooses to abort her fetus, for whatever reason, would not be aberrant, but sane. It is her life, and she makes her own lifestyle choices. That is her basic human right.
Your argument 'is' a strawman and being used to deflect. I was asking what YOU think should legally be legislated to women who have abortions and also those that perform them. That is the topic. I am pro-choice, not anti-abortion, which is your stance not mine. If you believe abortion is murder, you would need to have the courage of your convictions and must have some ideal of what you think should legally happen to those women that have their fetuses aborted. Or are you basing your ideal on the Catholic Church's stance on it and what has been conditioned onto you?
Common sense and logic must prevail above all else, to have a society that is not going to create and layer more problems. Not some brainwashed deluded notions, based on the abstract beliefs of the existence of an entity that can't possibly be proven.
I regard abortion as infanticide. There is no difference between killing the child before OR after he/she is born. Therefore, I believe the consequences should be the same regardless, should abortion become illegal again.
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May 30, 2018 15:38:59 GMT
Post by phludowin on May 30, 2018 15:38:59 GMT
I regard abortion as infanticide. There is no difference between killing the child before OR after he/she is born. Therefore, I believe the consequences should be the same regardless, should abortion become illegal again. Most people in Ireland and other civilized places disagree with you. And that's a good thing in my opinion.
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May 30, 2018 17:34:00 GMT
Post by clusium on May 30, 2018 17:34:00 GMT
I regard abortion as infanticide. There is no difference between killing the child before OR after he/she is born. Therefore, I believe the consequences should be the same regardless, should abortion become illegal again. Most people in Ireland and other civilized places disagree with you. And that's a good thing in my opinion. Well, your opinion is of no consequence, as far as I am concerned. Actually, its not that most people in Ireland do not agree with me. Its that most of the people who do agree with me, did not go out to vote in the referendum, last week.
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May 30, 2018 18:55:24 GMT
Post by phludowin on May 30, 2018 18:55:24 GMT
Actually, its not that most people in Ireland do not agree with me. Its that most of the people who do agree with me, did not go out to vote in the referendum, last week. A statement that is probably as accurate as your earlier lie that women are mostly anti-abortion and men pro-abortion. www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/26/ireland-votes-by-landslide-to-legalise-abortionIf you look at the exit polls, 72.1% of women voted yes, but only 65.9% of men.
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May 30, 2018 18:59:14 GMT
Post by clusium on May 30, 2018 18:59:14 GMT
Actually, its not that most people in Ireland do not agree with me. Its that most of the people who do agree with me, did not go out to vote in the referendum, last week. A statement that is probably as accurate as your earlier lie that women are mostly anti-abortion and men pro-abortion. www.theguardian.com/world/2018/may/26/ireland-votes-by-landslide-to-legalise-abortionIf you look at the exit polls, 72.1% of women voted yes, but only 65.9% of men. I'm a woman, & I'm against abortion, so what.
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May 30, 2018 19:45:11 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 19:45:11 GMT
I don't believe in capital punishment either, so the state is then committing murder. Murder is most foul. Therefore, if one considers something murder, under the laws of most countries, murder must be punished.
As far as being anti-abortionist and wanting it to made illegal—because this is what they want—by making it illegal, those that murder their unborn fetus must be punished. I am asking, do you feel that abortionists and those women who choose to abort their children should be punished to the full extent of the law for murder? That is what would happen to people, if it is made illegal. Let me respond by asking you this question, Toasted_Cheese? What do you think should happen to parents who kill their children after birth, such as Susan Smith, or Andrea Yates? Jail, rather obviously.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 19:48:35 GMT
Strawman! We are not discussing the legality aspect of already birthed children who have been murdered. I was asking you about what you think the legal ramifications should be for those that abort their fetesus? This is your anti-abortionist stance, not mine. Nope!!! Not a strawman!!! There is no difference between killing one's own children before birth or after!!!! What about if a woman gives birth, but, immediately kills the baby?!?!?! 15 Year Old Girl Charged With Murdering Her New Born BabyThere is a difference. One is within and part of another body. The other is an independent person. You can certainly argue that the difference makes no difference, but that is a subjective judgment call. But to argue that there is no difference is simply factually incorrect.
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Post by goz on May 30, 2018 20:50:03 GMT
I'm a woman, & I'm against abortion, so what. Great! Don't ever have one, like me. However what gives you the right to tell other women what to do? Your religion? I don't think so!
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May 30, 2018 21:56:02 GMT
Post by clusium on May 30, 2018 21:56:02 GMT
I'm a woman, & I'm against abortion, so what. Great! Don't ever have one, like me. However what gives you the right to tell other women what to do? Your religion? I don't think so! No. For the same reason I would tell a woman not to kill her child after birth: Because it is infanticide.
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May 30, 2018 22:00:49 GMT
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 22:00:49 GMT
Great! Don't ever have one, like me. However what gives you the right to tell other women what to do? Your religion? I don't think so! No. For the same reason I would tell a woman not to kill her child after birth: Because it is infanticide. And yet, you support abortion being illegal in spite of the fact that this results in more abortions. So just how against abortion are you, really?
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May 30, 2018 22:18:25 GMT
Post by clusium on May 30, 2018 22:18:25 GMT
No. For the same reason I would tell a woman not to kill her child after birth: Because it is infanticide. And yet, you support abortion being illegal in spite of the fact that this results in more abortions. So just how against abortion are you, really? It does not result in more abortions. I am completely against it. It is infanticide.
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May 30, 2018 22:34:13 GMT
Post by goz on May 30, 2018 22:34:13 GMT
Great! Don't ever have one, like me. However what gives you the right to tell other women what to do? Your religion? I don't think so! No. For the same reason I would tell a woman not to kill her child after birth: Because it is infanticide. How can abortion be infanticide when it is not an infant?
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 22:58:48 GMT
And yet, you support abortion being illegal in spite of the fact that this results in more abortions. So just how against abortion are you, really? It does not result in more abortions. Yes, it does. The abortion rate is 37 per 1,000 women in countries that prohibit abortion altogether or allow it only to save a woman’s life, and 34 per 1,000 in countries that allow abortion without restriction. It's not a terribly significant difference, but it certainly demonstrates that criminalising abortion does absolutely nothing to stop it - if anything, it increases it. So you keep saying. And yet, you support a course of action that would not prevent it, but would in fact encourage it.
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May 31, 2018 0:30:04 GMT
Post by goz on May 31, 2018 0:30:04 GMT
Most people in Ireland and other civilized places disagree with you. And that's a good thing in my opinion. Well, your opinion is of no consequence, as far as I am concerned. Actually, its not that most people in Ireland do not agree with me. Its that most of the people who do agree with me, did not go out to vote in the referendum, last week.Wow! Those people who agree with you on matters of life and death are pretty slack then!!! They MUST feel pretty strongly, right? Or do you have a better explanation of the overwhelming Yes vote in Ireland? Presumably they are all sinners and will burn in hell?
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