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Post by captainbryce on May 29, 2018 19:32:55 GMT
Two questions on your answer: 1) Where did you find that definition of “lust”, and is that codified anywhere in scripture? 2) Is your answer based on any actual bible verses, or just your opinion. It's the definition of the original Greek word (which implies coveting and not just physical attraction). The Bible wasn't written in 21st century English. And I'm referring to Matthew 5 (when Jesus is discussing adultery). Wanting to possess someone for sex is sinful (especially if you've already committed yourself to another). It devalues him or her as an image-bearer of God. Physical attraction isn't the same as "lust" (again, referring to the Greek). According to the concordance, the Greek word translated as “lust” in English means (Definition: long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon). It doesn’t offer a specific context of sexuality or otherwise, and therefore could apply to any type of lust (as defined by the context of the passage). You gave your own definition of lust: “looking at an image-bearer of God as nothing more than an object of sexual gratification” which doesn’t seem to be backed up by either the dictionary or scripture. That’s why I am asking where you got that from. You also now seem to be saying that wanting to possess someone for sex is sinful in any context, but that’s not what Matthew 28 says (or even implies). The context given in that passage is adultery, and even the Commandment regarding coveting refers to another man’s wife. So as far as we can tell, lust is only sinful when it is over another man’s wife, not necessarily in general.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 19:41:49 GMT
It's the definition of the original Greek word (which implies coveting and not just physical attraction). The Bible wasn't written in 21st century English. And I'm referring to Matthew 5 (when Jesus is discussing adultery). Wanting to possess someone for sex is sinful (especially if you've already committed yourself to another). It devalues him or her as an image-bearer of God. Physical attraction isn't the same as "lust" (again, referring to the Greek). According to the concordance, the Greek word translated as “lust” in English means (Definition: long for, covet, lust after, set the heart upon). It doesn’t offer a specific context of sexuality or otherwise, and therefore could apply to any type of lust (as defined by the context of the passage). You gave your own definition of lust: “looking at an image-bearer of God as nothing more than an object of sexual gratification” which doesn’t seem to be backed up by either the dictionary or scripture. That’s why I am asking where you got that from. You also now seem to be saying that wanting to possess someone for sex is sinful in any context, but that’s not what Matthew 28 says (or even implies). The context given in that passage is adultery, and even the Commandment regarding coveting refers to another man’s wife. So as far as we can tell, lust is only sinful when it is over another man’s wife, not necessarily in general. If you want to play semantic games (as you may well want to do), you could parse out different forms of "lust." But, as has already been explained before, "sin" (hamartia in Greek) means to "miss the mark" of God's ideal. And objectifying a person would certainly fit that definition, as it would mean that you're seeing them as less than they are. Those who try to view others the way God views them (as a image-bearer of God himself who was worth dying for) wouldn't consciously do that. But wanting to have sex with your wife or husband isn't "missing the mark."
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 20:30:57 GMT
Well I find it an interesting topic to debate. It seems for the most part here that people have their own idea of what lust is, and it typically involves connecting it to something immoral but not exactly connected it to the actual definition of lust itself. I think there are negative associations with lust that sometimes people confuse them with actually being lust. There is no reason for us to go off of our own definition.
We go by the dictionary version or how lust in described as a sin in Scripture which tends to be more specific.
In any event, nothing is stopping non-Christians from lusting under any term which is why it is odd there are so many threads about what Christians view as sin when it has no bearing on people who don't acknowledge sin.
But so far in this thread Christians are going by their own definition. It seems the concept of lust in scripture is only connected to either adultery or objectification, which I can agree is a sin according to those circumstances, but lust itself doesn't always connect to those circumstances. You can say procreation happens as a result of lust, and obviously not only lust but it is still connected with procreation. That can easily be justified as being good and not being a sin because of the circumstances as well as the combination of a shared love and desire of creating new life together, but lust can be involved in that circumstance as well. It's pretty much saying that lust is only a sin sometimes without intending to say that, but I don't think lust is the actual sin but other factors that are sometimes combined with it such as adultery and objectification.
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Post by captainbryce on May 29, 2018 20:51:03 GMT
If you want to play semantic games (as you may well want to do), you could parse out different forms of "lust." But, as has already been explained before, "sin" (hamartia in Greek) means to "miss the mark" of God's ideal. And objectifying a person would certainly fit that definition, as it would mean that you're seeing them as less than they are. Those who try to view others the way God views them (as a image-bearer of God himself who was worth dying for) wouldn't consciously do that. But wanting to have sex with your wife or husband isn't "missing the mark." Well I’m never trying to play the semantics game (I actually hate that). I’m only ever interested in the ACTUAL meanings of words (as intended in the original text). I’m also interested in consistency. Two things though regarding what you just said: 1) You said that lust means objectifying a person and seeing them as less than a person. My question is why? As monicah previously said: “You can have a strong sexual desire for someone and not necessarily only view them as an object. What if that lust (sexual desire) was in combination of true genuine feelings for someone you love or care about? Lust and objectification can be connected in some circumstances but that doesn't mean they're the same thing.”2) I agree that wanting to have sex with your husband or wife isn’t “missing the mark” as you describe it. However, it also requires LUST! At least if we are going to be honest and keep with the dictionary definition of the word. So that would be proof that lust in and of itself is not sinful, only certain kinds of lust. The sin aspect seems to apply to who the object of the lust, not the emotion of lust itself.
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Post by Vegas on May 29, 2018 23:40:10 GMT
I guess that there are degrees to everything.... According to The Bible: Drinking isn't really a "sin".... but, being a drunkard is. Lust, like greed, is just a mental thought... but one that is considered to be the start of a possible path that can lead to evil. It's all relative to how strong the urge is and how much you act on it... and whether or not your target "belongs" to someone else. Matthew 5:28 seems to contradict that. "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Maybe... But.. It really does depend on the degree/definitions of "looks at" and "to lust after".... Surely you're not suggesting that the author considers the mere act of looking at a woman to be the equivalent as adultery.. Also... They mention it as adultery... not fornication... so, the marital status of the viewer is a notable factor.
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Post by clusium on May 30, 2018 3:47:31 GMT
Yes, lust is one of the 7 deadly sins. It is attacks the Commandment Thou shalt not commit adultery, & the Commandment Thou shalt covet thy neighbour's wife (or husband). Rape & molestation have their roots in lust. So does love and procreation! It ultimately depends on who the object of lust is, and what action is associated with lust that would make it sinful. And I would actually argue that neither rape nor molestation have anything to do with lust, but more to do with power and control. Psychologically speaking, rape is an abnormal desire exhibited by those who seek to control and dominate, and has little to do with normal sexual desire (which lust is). But I’m more interested in these so called 7 deadly sins. Is that actually biblical? Or is that more of a secular idea?
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 30, 2018 11:01:26 GMT
There is no reason for us to go off of our own definition.
We go by the dictionary version or how lust in described as a sin in Scripture which tends to be more specific.
In any event, nothing is stopping non-Christians from lusting under any term which is why it is odd there are so many threads about what Christians view as sin when it has no bearing on people who don't acknowledge sin.
But so far in this thread Christians are going by their own definition. It seems the concept of lust in scripture is only connected to either adultery or objectification, which I can agree is a sin according to those circumstances, but lust itself doesn't always connect to those circumstances. You can say procreation happens as a result of lust, and obviously not only lust but it is still connected with procreation. That can easily be justified as being good and not being a sin because of the circumstances as well as the combination of a shared love and desire of creating new life together, but lust can be involved in that circumstance as well. It's pretty much saying that lust is only a sin sometimes without intending to say that, but I don't think lust is the actual sin but other factors that are sometimes combined with it such as adultery and objectification. Most of the comments I've seen, & I don't look at all of them, seem to be providing verses to describe lusts in the Bible with others than pretending that lusts is the same as desire or arousal. Procreation does not need to happen as a result of lust. Desire and lust are not the same thing in scripture which, as I already said, is specifically referring to a lack of self-control in regards to a want. Basically, whether you should or shouldn't do it isn't in play because lust will lead you to do it anyway. That the word is usually mixed in with a bunch of other bad stuff. If one googles lust vs. desire, there are more than sufficient discussions between the differences. If one sticks to the notion that a contradiction is there, then the debate is pointless. Well, it's pointless anyway... This is a common sense argument. If desire is shown as a good thing in the Bible and the Bible mentions lust is a sin or a thing to avoid, then clearly the two things are not the same.
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Post by captainbryce on May 30, 2018 12:41:55 GMT
So does love and procreation! It ultimately depends on who the object of lust is, and what action is associated with lust that would make it sinful. And I would actually argue that neither rape nor molestation have anything to do with lust, but more to do with power and control. Psychologically speaking, rape is an abnormal desire exhibited by those who seek to control and dominate, and has little to do with normal sexual desire (which lust is). But I’m more interested in these so called 7 deadly sins. Is that actually biblical? Or is that more of a secular idea? Yeah, I don’t watch videos, religious or otherwise. Are YOU able to answer the question yourself?
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Post by captainbryce on May 30, 2018 13:11:54 GMT
Most of the comments I've seen, & I don't look at all of them, seem to be providing verses to describe lusts in the Bible with others than pretending that lusts is the same as desire or arousal. Procreation does not need to happen as a result of lust. Desire and lust are not the same thing in scripture which, as I already said, is specifically referring to a lack of self-control in regards to a want. Basically, whether you should or shouldn't do it isn't in play because lust will lead you to do it anyway. That the word is usually mixed in with a bunch of other bad stuff. .....SEMANTICS..... According to the dictionary and the biblical concordance, lust and desire are synonymous! So what is your biblical basis for saying hey are different? One can google altitude vs elevation and come up with sufficient “discussions” between the differences there too. But they’re both synonyms and largely interchangeable! You need a biblical distinction between the two words in order for this argument to have any merit, and you don’t have one. No, it’s actually an argument of semantics! There is no sense in this at all, common or otherwise. Which begs the questions: does it actually do either one of those things? That has not been shown so far in this debate. We have seen examples of the bible condemning certain types of lust, not lust in general.
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Post by clusium on May 30, 2018 13:47:25 GMT
Yeah, I don’t watch videos, religious or otherwise. Are YOU able to answer the question yourself? I already gave you my views. I decided to share the video because it gives a very interesting discussion on sexuality. If you are not interested in looking at it, perhaps someone else is.
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Post by captainbryce on May 30, 2018 14:22:48 GMT
Yeah, I don’t watch videos, religious or otherwise. Are YOU able to answer the question yourself? I already gave you my views. I decided to share the video because it gives a very interesting discussion on sexuality. If you are not interested in looking at it, perhaps someone else is. Yes, you mentioned the so-called 7 deadly sins as part of your views. I asked you to elaborate, and your response was to post a religious propaganda video (which is not an answer). I didn’t ask you to post someone else’s discussion on sexuality because that wasn’t my question. I’m asking YOU about the 7 deadly sins. Do you wish to elaborate?
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Post by clusium on May 30, 2018 14:39:28 GMT
I already gave you my views. I decided to share the video because it gives a very interesting discussion on sexuality. If you are not interested in looking at it, perhaps someone else is. Yes, you mentioned the so-called 7 deadly sins as part of your views. I asked you to elaborate, and your response was to post a religious propaganda video (which is not an answer). I didn’t ask you to post someone else’s discussion on sexuality because that wasn’t my question. I’m asking YOU about the 7 deadly sins. Do you wish to elaborate? I explained in my previous post why lust is one of the 7 deadly sins: Because all other sins have their roots in those 7 sins. Rape, molestation, adultery, fornication, etc., all have their roots in lust. I shared the video because it is very interesting, & relevant to this thread. If you're not interested, maybe someone else is.
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Post by captainbryce on May 30, 2018 15:19:06 GMT
Yes, you mentioned the so-called 7 deadly sins as part of your views. I asked you to elaborate, and your response was to post a religious propaganda video (which is not an answer). I didn’t ask you to post someone else’s discussion on sexuality because that wasn’t my question. I’m asking YOU about the 7 deadly sins. Do you wish to elaborate? I explained in my previous post why lust is one of the 7 deadly sins: Because all other sins have their roots in those 7 sins. Rape, molestation, adultery, fornication, etc., all have their roots in lust. I shared the video because it is very interesting, & relevant to this thread. If you're not interested, maybe someone else is. At this point I’m starting to think this is a deliberate attempt to avoid my question by being obtuse. So I’m going to ask you one more time, and then I’m going to move on to someone else. Is the concept of the 7 deadly sins codified in the bible (book, chapter, and verse)? I’m not asking you what you believe about them, how you feel about them, or your interpretation of them. I’m asking where that is located (if at all) in scripture. It’s a simple question!
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 17:14:15 GMT
I explained in my previous post why lust is one of the 7 deadly sins: Because all other sins have their roots in those 7 sins. Rape, molestation, adultery, fornication, etc., all have their roots in lust. I shared the video because it is very interesting, & relevant to this thread. If you're not interested, maybe someone else is. At this point I’m starting to think this is a deliberate attempt to avoid my question by being obtuse. So I’m going to ask you one more time, and then I’m going to move on to someone else. Is the concept of the 7 deadly sins codified in the bible (book, chapter, and verse)? I’m not asking you what you believe about them, how you feel about them, or your interpretation of them. I’m asking where that is located (if at all) in scripture. It’s a simple question! How are you defining "codified"?
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Post by clusium on May 30, 2018 17:32:25 GMT
I explained in my previous post why lust is one of the 7 deadly sins: Because all other sins have their roots in those 7 sins. Rape, molestation, adultery, fornication, etc., all have their roots in lust. I shared the video because it is very interesting, & relevant to this thread. If you're not interested, maybe someone else is. At this point I’m starting to think this is a deliberate attempt to avoid my question by being obtuse. So I’m going to ask you one more time, and then I’m going to move on to someone else. Is the concept of the 7 deadly sins codified in the bible (book, chapter, and verse)? I’m not asking you what you believe about them, how you feel about them, or your interpretation of them. I’m asking where that is located (if at all) in scripture. It’s a simple question! No, it wasn't written in the Holy Bible, it was a 4'Th Century Christian monk, by the name of Evagarus Ponticus, who noticed that these 7 sins were the root causes in other vices. It should be noted that one of them, Envy, is forbidden in the conclusion of the 10 Commandments: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, & thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 17:36:24 GMT
At this point I’m starting to think this is a deliberate attempt to avoid my question by being obtuse. So I’m going to ask you one more time, and then I’m going to move on to someone else. Is the concept of the 7 deadly sins codified in the bible (book, chapter, and verse)? I’m not asking you what you believe about them, how you feel about them, or your interpretation of them. I’m asking where that is located (if at all) in scripture. It’s a simple question! No, it wasn't written in the Holy Bible, it was a 4'Th Century Christian monk, by the name of Evagarus Ponticus, who noticed that these 7 sins were the root causes in other vices. It should be noted that one of them, Envy, is forbidden in the conclusion of the 10 Commandments: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, & thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house. I'd like to also note that something not being "neatly laid out in a nice concise package" in Scripture doesn't mean it isn't valid.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2018 19:31:56 GMT
But so far in this thread Christians are going by their own definition. It seems the concept of lust in scripture is only connected to either adultery or objectification, which I can agree is a sin according to those circumstances, but lust itself doesn't always connect to those circumstances. You can say procreation happens as a result of lust, and obviously not only lust but it is still connected with procreation. That can easily be justified as being good and not being a sin because of the circumstances as well as the combination of a shared love and desire of creating new life together, but lust can be involved in that circumstance as well. It's pretty much saying that lust is only a sin sometimes without intending to say that, but I don't think lust is the actual sin but other factors that are sometimes combined with it such as adultery and objectification. Most of the comments I've seen, & I don't look at all of them, seem to be providing verses to describe lusts in the Bible with others than pretending that lusts is the same as desire or arousal. Procreation does not need to happen as a result of lust . Desire and lust are not the same thing in scripture which, as I already said, is specifically referring to a lack of self-control in regards to a want. Basically, whether you should or shouldn't do it isn't in play because lust will lead you to do it anyway. That the word is usually mixed in with a bunch of other bad stuff. If one googles lust vs. desire, there are more than sufficient discussions between the differences. If one sticks to the notion that a contradiction is there, then the debate is pointless. Well, it's pointless anyway... This is a common sense argument. If desire is shown as a good thing in the Bible and the Bible mentions lust is a sin or a thing to avoid, then clearly the two things are not the same. It still seems like you're going by your own interpretation of lust, but if that's how the Bible defines it (which I'm not sure it does) then there's two different definitions of lust. One being a strong sexual desire according to the dictionary, and the other being a lack of self control in regards to a want according to you. But where does the Bible say that's what lust is? I would argue that almost all of the time procreation does involve lust to some degree even if it's not the only thing. Only having kids for the sake or procreation isn't exactly a good basis if there's no emotional connection of the parents. Love is important, but so is lust considering it can be seen as good if combined with something good. If it's used for a good purpose then I don't see how lust should be considered a sin regardless of circumstance.
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Post by captainbryce on May 30, 2018 19:46:26 GMT
At this point I’m starting to think this is a deliberate attempt to avoid my question by being obtuse. So I’m going to ask you one more time, and then I’m going to move on to someone else. Is the concept of the 7 deadly sins codified in the bible (book, chapter, and verse)? I’m not asking you what you believe about them, how you feel about them, or your interpretation of them. I’m asking where that is located (if at all) in scripture. It’s a simple question! How are you defining "codified"? Codified: arraigned, ordered, organized, structured, summarized, systematized.
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Post by captainbryce on May 30, 2018 19:49:11 GMT
At this point I’m starting to think this is a deliberate attempt to avoid my question by being obtuse. So I’m going to ask you one more time, and then I’m going to move on to someone else. Is the concept of the 7 deadly sins codified in the bible (book, chapter, and verse)? I’m not asking you what you believe about them, how you feel about them, or your interpretation of them. I’m asking where that is located (if at all) in scripture. It’s a simple question! No, it wasn't written in the Holy Bible, it was a 4'Th Century Christian monk, by the name of Evagarus Ponticus, who noticed that these 7 sins were the root causes in other vices. It should be noted that one of them, Envy, is forbidden in the conclusion of the 10 Commandments: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, & thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house. Thank you. That was the answer to my question!
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Post by captainbryce on May 30, 2018 19:50:14 GMT
No, it wasn't written in the Holy Bible, it was a 4'Th Century Christian monk, by the name of Evagarus Ponticus, who noticed that these 7 sins were the root causes in other vices. It should be noted that one of them, Envy, is forbidden in the conclusion of the 10 Commandments: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, & thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house. I'd like to also note that something not being "neatly laid out in a nice concise package" in Scripture doesn't mean it isn't valid. That ultimately depends on your denomination, Church, upbringing, and personal beliefs. Catholics have a very, VERY different stance on this than most Protestants.
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