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Post by Aj_June on May 29, 2018 18:30:06 GMT
This question is only for people who believe in souls or one super soul. Do you think all souls are created to exist eternally by God or there are souls that God kills* for any specific reason?
This question is not only for followers of Abrahamic faiths but also posed to monists/pantheists like OldSamVimes and Toasted Cheese .
From my understanding souls are not created according to Advaita Vedanta or esoteric Buddhist sects (that believe in souls). From what I believe Advaita explains existence of a single soul (as opposed to souls) that is eternal and undying and equivalent to god. So my question would be those entities who believe they are souls under influence of Maya, can they just cease to exist without transforming into eternal consciousness?
gameboy can present Greek orthodox perspective on the question in my OP.
* Kills here might mean finish them off or 'delete' them from existence.
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Post by captainbryce on May 29, 2018 18:39:13 GMT
This question is only for people who believe in souls or one super soul. Do you think all souls are created to exist eternally by God or there are souls that God kills* for any specific reason? This question is not only for followers of Abrahamic faiths but also posed to monists/pantheists like OldSamVimes and Toasted Cheese . From my understanding souls are not created according to Advaita Vedanta or esoteric Buddhist sects (that believe in souls). From what I believe Advaita explains existence of a single soul (as opposed to souls) that is eternal and undying and equivalent to god. So my question would be those entities who believe they are souls under influence of Maya, can they just cease to exist without transforming into eternal consciousness?
* Kills here might mean finish them off or 'delete' them from existence.
Former non-denominational Christian (current atheist) speaking here. When I believed in the soul (souls) I believed that they could die, mostly by going off of biblical scripture (which says they do). Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
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Post by Aj_June on May 29, 2018 18:42:12 GMT
This question is only for people who believe in souls or one super soul. Do you think all souls are created to exist eternally by God or there are souls that God kills* for any specific reason? This question is not only for followers of Abrahamic faiths but also posed to monists/pantheists like OldSamVimes and Toasted Cheese . From my understanding souls are not created according to Advaita Vedanta or esoteric Buddhist sects (that believe in souls). From what I believe Advaita explains existence of a single soul (as opposed to souls) that is eternal and undying and equivalent to god. So my question would be those entities who believe they are souls under influence of Maya, can they just cease to exist without transforming into eternal consciousness?
* Kills here might mean finish them off or 'delete' them from existence.
Former non-denominational Christian (current atheist) speaking here. When I believed in the soul (souls) I believed that they could die, mostly by going off of biblical scripture (which says they do). Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Isn't it JWs who are more likely to believe in this interpretation of Bible or do Catholics and Greek Orthodox also believe so?
Let's not get into which interpretation is right. I respect the interpretations of all sects.
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Post by general313 on May 29, 2018 18:57:05 GMT
A somewhat related question is the one of Pre-existence. The Mormons, for example believe that souls are co-eternal (I presume both forward and backward in time, and therefore indestructable).
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Post by captainbryce on May 29, 2018 19:01:17 GMT
Former non-denominational Christian (current atheist) speaking here. When I believed in the soul (souls) I believed that they could die, mostly by going off of biblical scripture (which says they do). Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Isn't it JWs who are more likely to believe in this interpretation of Bible or do Catholics and Greek Orthodox also believe so? Let's not get into which interpretation is right. I respect the interpretations of all sects.
I’m not sure. However it makes sense if they (JWs) do because I remember back on the old IMDB boards Poisoned_Dragon used to always accuse me of being a JW. I assumed it was because I didn’t subscribe to the Trinity (which I know JWs do not. However if they also share this interpretation, then it makes sense why he was always so insistent that I must be one. I’m not sure what the other denominations believe in this regard either. My family is Pentecostal and I know they believe that the dead know nothing. They never acted like anyone who died had gone to heaven or anything. But Catholics pray to dead saints and to Mary, so I’d assume they actually do believe that the soul survives death somehow, and goes straight to heaven, or purgatory.
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Post by maya55555 on May 29, 2018 19:12:17 GMT
NO.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 19:16:59 GMT
I think the Bible tends to support the idea of conditional immortality.
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Post by OldSamVimes on May 29, 2018 20:03:51 GMT
This question is only for people who believe in souls or one super soul. Do you think all souls are created to exist eternally by God or there are souls that God kills* for any specific reason?
This question is not only for followers of Abrahamic faiths but also posed to monists/pantheists like OldSamVimes and Toasted Cheese .
From my understanding souls are not created according to Advaita Vedanta or esoteric Buddhist sects (that believe in souls). From what I believe Advaita explains existence of a single soul (as opposed to souls) that is eternal and undying and equivalent to god. So my question would be those entities who believe they are souls under influence of Maya, can they just cease to exist without transforming into eternal consciousness?
gameboy can present Greek orthodox perspective on the question in my OP.
* Kills here might mean finish them off or 'delete' them from existence.
I think a soul can 'die' when it is absorbed into the 'super soul' or pure consciousness. I think of pure consciousness as undiluted awareness, the awareness we have as humans being as a drop of consciousness compared to the 'super ocean' of 'God'. So, if a soul ceases to be it's probably generally a good thing going from my philosophy... but when I think about it I could also see souls ceasing to exist by going in the other direction and becoming so unconscious, negative and empty that they pop like a soap bubble.
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Post by drystyx on May 29, 2018 20:29:59 GMT
The Christian theologians I've met, who probably represent at least three seminaries of schools, all claim the soul does die, and it is the spirit that lives.
So, it's a matter of defining the term.
What the graduates of seminaries are apparently taught is that the "meter reader" of what we experience, is not the soul, but generally, that's what we acknowledge as the soul.
So, if we're speaking of the "meter reader", which can't be explained by Nature, Biology, or Physics, and exists totally outside of all these, no matter how many materialists want to whine about it, we're speaking of what most of us call the "soul", so I'll consider that the gist of what we speak of here.
I will call it the "meter reader" to avoid confusion, however. Brains are not meter readers. They are meters. Nervous systems are not meter readers. They are input and processes.
Now, I differ from the fundamentalist in that I don't think it's possible that the good God created these bodies or these laws of Physics. He sent his son to ransom us from the Devil. We're all created by the Devil, or at least trapped by the Devil, and we needed a ransom. The Bible is a puzzle, and in solving the puzzle, if we use mathematical logic, we see it clearly.
Meter readers don't die when meters die. They may feel dead, but they don't die. In order for the meter reader to die, some more powerful force has to enforce this condition of death.
In short, in order to believe the "meter reader" dies, you must first believe in higher supernatural cognitive powers that enforce this condition of death. A true atheist, one who isn't a materialist, can't possibly believe that a meter reader dies.
Now, this is all made into confusion by the Devil, who acted first with the tree of Confusion, which after Adam and Eve partook of its fruit, he convinced them was a tree of Knowledge, but it was obviously Confusion. This was further made confusing with Babel. Again, once confused, Man had no way to identify God from Satan. This is made clear.
Further confusing are our five senses. There's no guarantee that a meter reader will "see", "hear", "smell", or whichever, upon death of the body it reads presently.
According to Jesus, he who loves his life will lose it. So, if we love to see, hear, and smell, and want to continue down this path, that could prove dangerous, and I'm inclined to believe it could keep us under the thumb of the enemy.
As a rational, mature, educated person, I would rather die and not exist than be under the thumb of the enemy again. I'm sure 99% of Christians feel the same way, whether they're as Gnostic as I am or fundamentalist.
That explains about everything.
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Post by Terrapin Station on May 29, 2018 20:40:01 GMT
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Post by Aj_June on May 29, 2018 21:04:43 GMT
A somewhat related question is the one of Pre-existence. The Mormons, for example believe that souls are co-eternal (I presume both forward and backward in time, and therefore indestructable). That's interesting to read. I wasn't aware of this concept.
In Hinduism there is a school called Tatvavada which differs from every other school of Hinduism because it believes that souls are unborn and god is also unborn. So essentially this school is dualist in that it believes god doesn't create souls. The god's main task in this school is to provide enlightenment to souls by his infinite mercy. I believe the primary reason they choose to define god in this way is rid the god of blame of shortcomings of souls. The mainstream Hinduism believes that soul alone exist and god is primarily a temporary entity born out of ignorance of soul about his own nature. Once the soul is rid of maya, the universe as well as god disappears and a sou alonel remains in a blissful state of Nirvana.
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Post by Aj_June on May 29, 2018 21:08:55 GMT
Isn't it JWs who are more likely to believe in this interpretation of Bible or do Catholics and Greek Orthodox also believe so? Let's not get into which interpretation is right. I respect the interpretations of all sects.
I’m not sure. However it makes sense if they (JWs) do because I remember back on the old IMDB boards Poisoned_Dragon used to always accuse me of being a JW. I assumed it was because I didn’t subscribe to the Trinity (which I know JWs do not. However if they also share this interpretation, then it makes sense why he was always so insistent that I must be one. I’m not sure what the other denominations believe in this regard either. My family is Pentecostal and I know they believe that the dead know nothing. They never acted like anyone who died had gone to heaven or anything. But Catholics pray to dead saints and to Mary, so I’d assume they actually do believe that the soul survives death somehow, and goes straight to heaven, or purgatory. Thanks for your perspective, Bryce. Yes, while I am not sure I do believe that most other schools of Christianity believe that souls are indestructible (or immortal) as pointed by Dennis Reynolds in this thread. clusium, good you give a Catholic perspective on my OP?
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Post by captainbryce on May 29, 2018 21:16:02 GMT
I think the Bible tends to support the idea of conditional immortality. I agree.
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Post by Aj_June on May 29, 2018 21:26:05 GMT
. Attachments have to be dropped. The drop of consciousness is really the complete super ocean of God and we are all that God force. It is all whole and one and complete. We are not a tiny drop in the ocean, but are the ocean, to use OldSamVimes metaphor. You mean something along these lines?
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Post by drystyx on May 29, 2018 21:31:27 GMT
Our lives here are our dharma, and that purpose is to contribute and in a sense give rise or birth to our soul. The soul is not a separate entity to our human lives, or conscious state of being. It is all connected. In religious context only, that once the body dies, the soul is what carries us forth to our destiny of heaven or hell, due to how we behave in our lifetime, or as Christians believe, belief in their savior will be the only thing that saves them. It is not a once around and until that soul\journey develops, only then transcendence will be attained. Attachments have to be dropped. The drop of consciousness is really the complete super ocean of God and we are all that God force. It is all whole and one and complete. We are not a tiny drop in the ocean, but are the ocean, to use OldSamVimes metaphor. The belief in the name of Jesus as savior is against the words of Jesus. There isn't anyone alive who even knows how to pronounce his real name. Try it in front of one of those evangelists. He'll correct you every single time, even when you pronounce it exactly the way he does. He'll say, "No, it's Yaway", so you say "Yaway", then he'll say "No, it's Eesay", so you say "Eesay", and he'll say "No, it's ….". So much for the name being a magic wand of redemption. It was the "Holy Ghost" Jesus said we had to walk with. That's what we can't blaspheme. So there's much of this "dharma" in Jesus. When the "meter reader" or spirit or soul has no body to read a meter of, it's going to go to where it cherishes the reading of. A meter reader whose gas company suddenly folds, will go where he chooses. As we are slaves to what we read in this existence, our "meter readers" are molded into what we choose with what we learn. What we learn of the world and its Physics and sights and things we hear, that's all gone. So, as you say, we get to be a part of something superior or something inferior, depending on what we've molded ourselves to appreciate.
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Post by OldSamVimes on May 29, 2018 23:04:53 GMT
Sometime this year I plan to go to take some Ayahuasca.
It's on the back burner, but I plan on getting around to it. I had three different people spontaneously give me leads last year. Not sure if I'm willing to pay 300$ or so (that's what I've heard some people pay).
From what I understand, people from different cultures generally experience similar things. Not sure if it's a 'glimpse behind the curtain' but many who try it completely lose any fear of death they had.
I'll be sure to post about it if/when I get around to it.
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Post by goz on May 29, 2018 23:36:07 GMT
Sometime this year I plan to go to take some Ayahuasca. It's on the back burner, but I plan on getting around to it. I had three different people spontaneously give me leads last year. Not sure if I'm willing to pay 300$ or so (that's what I've heard some people pay). From what I understand, people from different cultures generally experience similar things. Not sure if it's a 'glimpse behind the curtain' but many who try it completely lose any fear of death they had. I'll be sure to post about it if/when I get around to it. Enjoy the vomiting and diarrhoea associated with it!
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Post by Eλευθερί on May 30, 2018 2:35:53 GMT
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Post by The Herald Erjen on May 30, 2018 10:22:12 GMT
Unknown. A Jehovah's Witness friend of mine once told me that they believe the soul eventually dies. I heard from a couple of other sources that some of them choose to return to the Godhead.
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Post by Aj_June on May 30, 2018 10:51:49 GMT
Unknown. A Jehovah's Witness friend of mine once told me that they believe the soul eventually dies. I heard from a couple of other sources that some of them choose to return to the Godhead. That is true. JWs do believe that god can make certain souls permanently sleep or remove their consciousness or something like that.
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