Lugh
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Post by Lugh on May 30, 2018 20:41:33 GMT
.....abortion is moral.
Someone in a vegetative state cannot feel pain or pleasure, cannot think or have desires or anything like that. So what's the difference between abortion and killing someone in a vegetative state if that vegetative state has been confirmed to only be temporary?
Lets say "John" is in a vegetative state and the doctors somehow discover he will awake from that in 8 months, if I killed him why would it be bad if abortion (very similar to this scenario) is not bad?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2018 1:39:07 GMT
There's a difference between taking someone off of life support because they have no hope of getting better, on the one hand, and forcibly killing an unborn baby because it would be inconvenient for you to go through with the pregnancy, on the other.
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Post by goz on May 31, 2018 2:19:25 GMT
There's a difference between taking someone off of life support because they have no hope of getting better, on the one hand, and forcibly killing an unborn baby because it would be inconvenient for you to go through with the pregnancy, on the other. Is it more 'convenient' to take someone off life support so that the community doesn't incur the costs of endlessly prolonging a life, or to abort a clump of cells that could potentially kill the mother and prevent her from having a 'normal' life, without incurring the cost and responsibility of 18+ years of financial and emotional support of a child she doesn't want?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2018 2:33:53 GMT
There's a difference between taking someone off of life support because they have no hope of getting better, on the one hand, and forcibly killing an unborn baby because it would be inconvenient for you to go through with the pregnancy, on the other. Is it more 'convenient' to take someone off life support so that the community doesn't incur the costs of endlessly prolonging a life, or to abort a clump of cells that could potentially kill the mother and prevent her from having a 'normal' life, without incurring the cost and responsibility of 18+ years of financial and emotional support of a child she doesn't want? That statement is loaded with so much ignorance, I don't even know where to begin. Almost no one gets taken off of life support for convenience. It's almost always because the person on it has next to no chance of actually getting better. And the vast, VAST majority of abortions are for the sake of convenience; not because the mother's life is in danger. If you don't feel ready to raise a child, then you have plenty of options to avoid that situation that don't include killing the person inside of you (both before and after conception). But I'm not going to convince you (and vice versa), so I don't really care to engage you on this beyond what I just said. I just wanted to address the OP's question about the ethical difference between taking a dying person off of life support and actively killing an unborn child.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 31, 2018 3:13:44 GMT
There's a difference between taking someone off of life support because they have no hope of getting better, on the one hand, and forcibly killing an unborn baby because it would be inconvenient for you to go through with the pregnancy, on the other. Is it more 'convenient' to take someone off life support so that the community doesn't incur the costs of endlessly prolonging a life, or to abort a clump of cells that could potentially kill the mother and prevent her from having a 'normal' life, without incurring the cost and responsibility of 18+ years of financial and emotional support of a child she doesn't want? That whole paragraph is lol.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 31, 2018 3:15:49 GMT
I thin we assume about as much concerning what a person in a vegetative state can feel as we do when a prekid is killed.
If the person doesn't want to die, don't kill them. If they do want to die, then kill them. If they never made their intentions clear, then the family can decide.
If it's kid, then the parents can decide to kill them just as they legally make that decision in abortions.
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Post by goz on May 31, 2018 4:49:04 GMT
Is it more 'convenient' to take someone off life support so that the community doesn't incur the costs of endlessly prolonging a life, or to abort a clump of cells that could potentially kill the mother and prevent her from having a 'normal' life, without incurring the cost and responsibility of 18+ years of financial and emotional support of a child she doesn't want? That statement is loaded with so much ignorance, I don't even know where to begin. Almost no one gets taken off of life support for convenience. It's almost always because the person on it has next to no chance of actually getting better. And the vast, VAST majority of abortions are for the sake of convenience; not because the mother's life is in danger. If you don't feel ready to raise a child, then you have plenty of options to avoid that situation that don't include killing the person inside of you (both before and after conception). But I'm not going to convince you (and vice versa), so I don't really care to engage you on this beyond what I just said. I just wanted to address the OP's question about the ethical difference between taking a dying person off of life support and actively killing an unborn child. ...and yet my response was answered 'in kind' and n the same kind of language as your emotive exaggerated nonsensical reply.
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Post by goz on May 31, 2018 4:50:20 GMT
Is it more 'convenient' to take someone off life support so that the community doesn't incur the costs of endlessly prolonging a life, or to abort a clump of cells that could potentially kill the mother and prevent her from having a 'normal' life, without incurring the cost and responsibility of 18+ years of financial and emotional support of a child she doesn't want? That whole paragraph is lol. I agree, as I answered it in ' kind' as to what Dennis spouted.
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Post by Marv on May 31, 2018 8:46:59 GMT
No. If anything vegetative killings would be moral of abortion were considered moral. The two don’t contradict each other.
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Eλευθερί
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Post by Eλευθερί on May 31, 2018 8:57:57 GMT
Withdrawing life support is not killing, per se.
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Eλευθερί
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Post by Eλευθερί on May 31, 2018 9:02:13 GMT
An embryo or early fetus is entirely dependent on someone else's body for its continued existence.
Consequently, its rights are entirely subservient to the needs and desires of the person in whom it is growing.
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Post by yezziqa on May 31, 2018 9:10:35 GMT
.....abortion is moral. Someone in a vegative state cannot feel pain or pleasure, cannot think or have desires or anything like that. So what's the difference between abortion and killing someone in a vegative state? I support abortions, assisted suicide and also taking people of life support, but i'm going to comment on your beliefs. Wrong. Being in a vegetative state doesn't mean you can't feel pain of pleasure, you have probably misstaken vegetative state for brain dead. As for fetuses, we know that their ability to feel pain develop from 13 to 20 weeks, before that their nervous system isn't developed enough.
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Lugh
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Post by Lugh on May 31, 2018 10:33:12 GMT
.....abortion is moral. Someone in a vegative state cannot feel pain or pleasure, cannot think or have desires or anything like that. So what's the difference between abortion and killing someone in a vegative state? I support abortions, assisted suicide and also taking people of life support, but i'm going to comment on your beliefs. Wrong. Being in a vegetative state doesn't mean you can't feel pain of pleasure, you have probably misstaken vegetative state for brain dead. As for fetuses, we know that their ability to feel pain develop from 13 to 20 weeks, before that their nervous system isn't developed enough. I am talking about killing someone in a vegetative state if they will awake from it eventually (just like a fetus)
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Lugh
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Post by Lugh on May 31, 2018 10:34:42 GMT
There's a difference between taking someone off of life support because they have no hope of getting better, on the one hand, and forcibly killing an unborn baby because it would be inconvenient for you to go through with the pregnancy, on the other. Yeah I just realized how people might misinterpret my post so I edited it. I hope its clearer now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2018 10:35:02 GMT
Is it more 'convenient' to take someone off life support so that the community doesn't incur the costs of endlessly prolonging a life, or to abort a clump of cells that could potentially kill the mother and prevent her from having a 'normal' life, without incurring the cost and responsibility of 18+ years of financial and emotional support of a child she doesn't want? That statement is loaded with so much ignorance, I don't even know where to begin. Almost no one gets taken off of life support for convenience. It's almost always because the person on it has next to no chance of actually getting better. And the vast, VAST majority of abortions are for the sake of convenience; not because the mother's life is in danger. If you don't feel ready to raise a child, then you have plenty of options to avoid that situation that don't include killing the person inside of you (both before and after conception).
But I'm not going to convince you (and vice versa), so I don't really care to engage you on this beyond what I just said. I just wanted to address the OP's question about the ethical difference between taking a dying person off of life support and actively killing an unborn child. I would say a lot of abortions are mostly based off a woman not receiving enough emotional support from people when she needs it. People are first to care about an unborn child because of it being an innocent life, yet people still neglect the emotional state of the woman who in fact can also be considered an innocent life. I feel like these unnecessary abortions happen because circumstances like these leave some women to feel there isn't an another option, and not because it was more convenient based off what they wanted. Obviously they never wanted to be pregnant to begin with so they wouldn't want to have an abortion either. I think the act of abortion is typically more out of desperation and fear of shame than actually wanting to have one. I'm more so pro-life because I can't imagine abortions causing a positive effect of the woman's emotional state having one, especially if she was raped. If anything I feel like the concept of taking away an innocent life would cause her even more problems on top of what she previously had to go through. "I was raped and now I killed my un-born child" In that scenario you're taking a negative and making another negative out of it. How does that help the woman who's experienced trauma in any way? But I could definitely imagine a woman deciding to go though the pregnancy and giving her child to adoptive parents who can raise and support it as positively affecting her because in that scenario she turned a negative into a positive. That makes a traumatizing experience such as rape easier to recover from knowing you did something good for the sake of someone else in return. I'm on the same page as the pro-life message but I still emphasize the emotional support for the woman because she is ultimately the one making the decision.
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Lugh
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Post by Lugh on May 31, 2018 10:39:11 GMT
An embryo or early fetus is entirely dependent on someone else's body for its continued existence. Consequently, its rights are entirely subservient to the needs and desires of the person in whom it is growing. If the doctors discovered that lets say a guy call John would awake from his vegetative state in 8 months time and I shot and killed him what punishment should I receive?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2018 10:46:22 GMT
.....abortion is moral. Someone in a vegetative state cannot feel pain or pleasure, cannot think or have desires or anything like that. So what's the difference between abortion and killing someone in a vegetative state if that vegetative state has been confirmed to only be temporary? Lets say "John" is in a vegetative state and the doctors somehow discover he will awake from that in 8 months, if I killed him why would it be bad if abortion (very similar to this scenario) is not bad? For me the fundamental moral issue with abortion is bodily autonomy. If you forbid abortion you are compelling a woman to host a fetus as part of her body whether she wants to or not. This would not apply to a person in a vegetative state, whose body functions independently.
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Lugh
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Post by Lugh on May 31, 2018 10:54:14 GMT
.....abortion is moral. Someone in a vegetative state cannot feel pain or pleasure, cannot think or have desires or anything like that. So what's the difference between abortion and killing someone in a vegetative state if that vegetative state has been confirmed to only be temporary? Lets say "John" is in a vegetative state and the doctors somehow discover he will awake from that in 8 months, if I killed him why would it be bad if abortion (very similar to this scenario) is not bad? For me the fundamental moral issue with abortion is bodily autonomy. If you forbid abortion you are compelling a woman to host a fetus as part of her body whether she wants to or not. This would not apply to a person in a vegetative state, whose body functions independently. If somebody killed someone who would awake from a vegetative state in 8 months why would that be bad? Also what about the bodily autonomy of the murderer? Doesn't the murderer have the right of bodily autonomy? Shouldnt they be allowed to place their figure on the trigger and pull it? Its their body afterall.
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Post by phludowin on May 31, 2018 11:01:28 GMT
.....abortion is moral. Someone in a vegetative state cannot feel pain or pleasure, cannot think or have desires or anything like that. So what's the difference between abortion and killing someone in a vegetative state if that vegetative state has been confirmed to only be temporary? Lets say "John" is in a vegetative state and the doctors somehow discover he will awake from that in 8 months, if I killed him why would it be bad if abortion (very similar to this scenario) is not bad? The moral difference in my opinion is: John is a person. A fetus is not.
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Lugh
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Post by Lugh on May 31, 2018 11:02:36 GMT
.....abortion is moral. Someone in a vegetative state cannot feel pain or pleasure, cannot think or have desires or anything like that. So what's the difference between abortion and killing someone in a vegetative state if that vegetative state has been confirmed to only be temporary? Lets say "John" is in a vegetative state and the doctors somehow discover he will awake from that in 8 months, if I killed him why would it be bad if abortion (very similar to this scenario) is not bad? The moral difference in my opinion is: John is a person. A fetus is not. why is one a person and the other not?
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