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Post by General Kenobi on Jul 5, 2018 10:30:11 GMT
Yeah Birthright was quickly retconned by Secret Origin. Which never got the hate that Birthright did but fans weren't ready to give up the Man of Steel origin. Which is a shame because they missed out on a really good story.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jul 5, 2018 14:38:01 GMT
That's right, it was Secret Origin, which was before the New 52. I don't remember a lot of that story, but it bugged me that Birthright was barely 5 years old, but more that they were obviously trying to recapture the glory days of Superman by making him look so much like Christopher Reeve, and Lois looking like Margot Kidder. I found it a little creepy.
And then right around that time they did the whole New Krypton storyline, which I didn't care for at all.
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Post by General Kenobi on Jul 5, 2018 18:07:07 GMT
Yeah Geoff Johns is clearly a huge fan of the Christopher Reeve movie. Not only did he make Lois and Clark more like their movie counterparts, he brought in Richard Donner as co-writer.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Jul 5, 2018 19:10:07 GMT
Yeah Geoff Johns is clearly a huge fan of the Christopher Reeve movie. Not only did he make Lois and Clark more like their movie counterparts, he brought in Richard Donner as co-writer. That's right, I forgot about that.
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Post by General Kenobi on Jul 6, 2018 13:50:11 GMT
I did to until a story written by Johns and Donner in Action Comics #1000 jogged my memory. I think the best thing to come out of this period was they finally gave us a great general Zod after struggling with alternatives for years.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2018 12:00:56 GMT
I have never read the 'Superman: Birthright' graphic novel but I have heard of it and I just looked it up and it was originally a 12 issue comic book limited series that came out between 2003 and 2004 and I hate to say it but that is pretty old now and we are getting old and think that it is not but I have seen what my friends' children who were born in that year look like now. I didn't like the way the people of Smallville gave up on Clark in 'Man of Steel' either or the fact he didn't really have any close friendships with anybody other than Pete Ross who sold him out as you mentioned. That is where I think Chloe Sullivan should have came in 'cause it would have gave Clark that humanity people were looking for and a sense of humour and I understand they were going for a darker tone but I don't think the darker tone works for Superman like it does for Superman 'cause he grew up on earth with a human family and was close to humans and I always thought it was his love for humans that was one of the main reasons he become a superhero and fought for them whereas Supergirl didn't have that 'cause she woke up on earth years later and was a stranger. What happened to Lana in 'Man of Steel?' I thought it was odd she didn't play a bigger part in his backstory since she was his first love before Lois.
It has been a while since it came out, but even for 2004, it was supplanted just a few short years after that, either with the New 52 or some other reimagining that fell between Birthright and the New 52. It was, at the time, very surprising and disappointing; especially because I really like Birthright (you really should check it out), not to mention the fact that the John Byrne origin story from the 80s, The Man of Steel, was largely maintained as his defacto origin for much, much longer. Whenever people would talk about wanting Superman to be darker and more like Batman on the Smallville board, I would note the important dichotomy of the two characters; and how Bruce Wayne often pushes people away, or his relationships just don't survive the darkness that is inextricably linked to his life. Meanwhile Clark Kent is the ultimate orphan, yet could not have more love in his life; and all of those touchstones for humanity are what allows him to redirect all of that positivity in what he does as Superman and be a beacon of light and hope. Sorry for taking a while to get around to this one Stargazer. I mostly forgot about this thread when it fell back to the fourth page and that happens to some threads on here as you would most likely have noticed by now and the threads are often changing on the first page. I have ordered ‘Superman Birthright’ on the Australian Amazon store now and I got the paperback edition for $23.92 and there was a Library Binding edition too but they wanted $43.33 for it and I wasn't willing to pay that much for a graphic novel. It should arrive in the mail over the next few days and I will read it when I have finished reading the graphic novel I am reading at the moment and let you know what I think. There have been a lot of re-imaginings in DC over the past few decades as we have discussed on other threads which can make it difficult for people who don't read the comic books frequently to keep up with them and some changes have been for the better and others have been pretty bad and lead to superheroes who were once popular being downgraded to reoccurring roles in other series or members of team much like what happened to some of the members of the 'JSA' who used to have their own regular series.
The New 52 had a lot of duds but it also had some of the most popular Batman and Bat Family storylines to date and Gail Simone's 'Batgirl' New 52 series is one of my favourite comic book series of all time and I also liked the 'Birds of Prey', 'Batman', 'Nightwing', 'Batwoman', 'Secret Six', 'Batman & Robin', 'Black Canary' and 'Supergirl' New 52 series to name a few. 'Death of the Family', 'Court of Owls', 'End Game' and 'Eternal' were some of my favourite Batman storylines too. I agree with what you said in regards to people who wanted Superman to be darker and the funny thing about Batman is in a lot of the comic books where he is with members of the Bat Family he isn't as dark and will make jokes sometimes and he is happier with them. That was why the Joker targeted the Bat Family in 'Death of the Family' 'cause he saw Batman caring about them as being his biggest weakness but Batman saw them as his biggest strength 'cause they gave him a reason to keep fighting and a family he loved. Funny enough, a lot of the people who complained about 'Man of Steel' being too dark were the same ones who said Superman was too light and criticised 'Superman Returns' for that.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Aug 1, 2018 4:17:00 GMT
I didn't really care for Death of the Family, it just didn't work for me for some reason. I really didn't like the Court of Owls story either, it just seemed too convoluted. This idea of a secret society deeply embedded in Gotham - and nowhere else - that had been around since at least the 1800, but they managed to stay hidden, yet everyone in Gotham knew a folk rhyme about them. And then after centuries of staying in the shadows they decide now is the time to be more conspicuous...
I'd like it better if their origins were more inverted; they have global ties, but Gotham is the one city they couldn't get their hooks - or talons - because of the level of corruption already present from the start of the city. That is, until Batman came along. So then, in almost a twisted reward for his efforts, this new organization has an opportunity to lay claim to the city.
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Post by General Kenobi on Aug 2, 2018 17:05:59 GMT
The closest thing I have to a problem with the Court of Owls is they're supposed to have a long, shadowy history in Gotham City. Even appearing in children's songs. But it rings hollow due to them being such a new addition to the Canon.
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Post by BexxyJ on Aug 7, 2018 13:30:33 GMT
Was it ever explained why Superman wears his undies on the outside of his costume?
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Post by stargazer1682 on Aug 7, 2018 14:31:44 GMT
Was it ever explained why Superman wears his undies on the outside of his costume? I mean, historically it reflects the appearance of an old fashioned strong man. In continuity, I don't know that they've ever say why. I do think it could be updated and stylized to look more contemporary, rather than getting rid of it entirely, making his costume look more like a onesy. They did something along the lines of what I think they should do with Supes, with Mon-El in the comics:
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Post by General Kenobi on Aug 7, 2018 21:06:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2018 6:49:46 GMT
I didn't really care for Death of the Family, it just didn't work for me for some reason. I really didn't like the Court of Owls story either, it just seemed too convoluted. This idea of a secret society deeply embedded in Gotham - and nowhere else - that had been around since at least the 1800, but they managed to stay hidden, yet everyone in Gotham knew a folk rhyme about them. And then after centuries of staying in the shadows they decide now is the time to be more conspicuous... I'd like it better if their origins were more inverted; they have global ties, but Gotham is the one city they couldn't get their hooks - or talons - because of the level of corruption already present from the start of the city. That is, until Batman came along. So then, in almost a twisted reward for his efforts, this new organization has an opportunity to lay claim to the city. Fair enough. Although I liked the 'Death of the Family' storyline for the most apart especially the Batgirl graphic novel of that name and I personally think Batgirl: 'The Darkest Reflection', 'Knightfall Descends', 'Death of the Family', 'Wanted' and 'Deadline' by Gail Simone were the best part of the DC 'New 52' series and I also loved the 'Birds of Prey New 52' series that run alongside it and continued onto 'Batgirl' and have read both multiple times including once again earlier this year. I think Knightfall is one of the most underrated female villains in DC and hope to see them use her again one day along with the Disgraced. You bring up some good points about the 'Court of Owls' storyline and it is convoluted but I would say Court of Owls are one of the most popular new villain teams they have had in DC for a long time and they have appeared on lists of best DC Villains and been adapted in animation and live action. I loved 'Eternal' and the 'Batman: Eternal' and 'Batman & Robin: Eternal' series were the biggest Bat Family team up events we have had to date and nearly every superhero that has existed in the Bat Universe appeared in it and it also saw the return of Stephanie Brown/ The Spoiler and Cassandra Cain/ Orphan/Black Bat due to popular demand and the debut of Bluebird/ Harper Row and I don't know if you read those but 'Batman: Eternal' and 'Batman & Robin: Eternal' are two separate series that continue on to each other and 'Detective Comics Rebirth' is 'Batman Eternal 3' according to James Tynion IV.
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Post by General Kenobi on Aug 20, 2018 18:14:50 GMT
The Death of the Family. Making us realize for how much of a loner he claims to be, Batman has one Hell of a support net. With as many vigilantes in Gotham I'm surprised there's still any crime.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 12:38:59 GMT
The Death of the Family. Making us realize for how much of a loner he claims to be, Batman has one Hell of a support net. With as many vigilantes in Gotham I'm surprised there's still any crime. Yeah. That has always been my main problem with the 'Batman' live action movies aside from them making him a vigilante instead of the World's Greatest Detective that works with the GCPD and the people of Gotham see as a hero and Nolan making the last trilogy of movies too realistic which made it impossible for him to use a lot of Batman's villains which he even called a mistake. Batman is meant to be a team leader and it was his relationships with Dick, Barbara, Tim, Stephanie, Cassandra, Damian, Harper etc that give him a reason to fight and people that he can trust and depend on. Until we get the Bat Family in movies we haven't had a proper Batman movie series and they are just replaying the early years.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Sept 12, 2018 16:45:48 GMT
The Death of the Family. Making us realize for how much of a loner he claims to be, Batman has one Hell of a support net. With as many vigilantes in Gotham I'm surprised there's still any crime. Yeah. That has always been my main problem with the 'Batman' live action movies aside from them making him a vigilante instead of the World's Greatest Detective that works with the GCPD and the people of Gotham see as a hero and Nolan making the last trilogy of movies too realistic which made it impossible for him to use a lot of Batman's villains which he even called a mistake. Batman is meant to be a team leader and it was his relationships with Dick, Barbara, Tim, Stephanie, Cassandra, Damian, Harper etc that give him a reason to fight and people that he can trust and depend on. Until we get the Bat Family in movies we haven't had a proper Batman movie series and they are just replaying the early years. That was my only real complaint with the Bruce Timm DCAU; mainly Batman Beyond, because it ultimately established that Bruce ends up driving them all away; and all of them - Barbara, Dick and Tim, all regret putting on the costume and resent Bruce .
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Post by General Kenobi on Sept 23, 2018 17:38:10 GMT
Never got into Batman Beyond. After hearing that I don't regret not pushing onward.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2018 13:16:16 GMT
Yeah. That has always been my main problem with the 'Batman' live action movies aside from them making him a vigilante instead of the World's Greatest Detective that works with the GCPD and the people of Gotham see as a hero and Nolan making the last trilogy of movies too realistic which made it impossible for him to use a lot of Batman's villains which he even called a mistake. Batman is meant to be a team leader and it was his relationships with Dick, Barbara, Tim, Stephanie, Cassandra, Damian, Harper etc that give him a reason to fight and people that he can trust and depend on. Until we get the Bat Family in movies we haven't had a proper Batman movie series and they are just replaying the early years. That was my only real complaint with the Bruce Timm DCAU; mainly Batman Beyond, because it ultimately established that Bruce ends up driving them all away; and all of them - Barbara, Dick and Tim, all regret putting on the costume and resent Bruce . I haven't read that much of 'Batman Beyond' to be honest and out of all the Bat Universe titles I have got over the years which has been a LOT like Batman, Batman & Robin, Detective Comics, Batgirl, Nightwing, Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Teen Titans, Titans, Red Hood and the Outlaws, the Black Canary (Dinah Drake), the Huntress, Robin: Son of Batman, Harley Quinn, Catwoman, Deathstroke, Anarky, Midnighter, Red Hood/Arsenal, Suicide Squad, Secret Six, Gotham City Sirens, Talon, We Are Robin, Grayson, Batman: Incorporated, Batman/Superman, Poison Ivy, the Joker, GCPD, Gotham Central, Gotham City Garage, Gotham Academy, Gotham by Midnight, Batman: White Knight etc, etc Batman Beyond is the series I have read the least of and I only saw one of the animated movies which was called 'Return of the Joker' which came out in 2000. I am confused as to whether it is supposed to be an elseworlds story or an official future to the Batman comic books 'cause there are a lot of continuity errors in the issues I have read and many missing characters that aren't mentioned and resenting putting on the costumes 'cause of Bruce wouldn't lineup with characters like the Spoiler, Bluebird or Azrael for example since they put on their costumes before they become members of the Bat Family.
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Post by stargazer1682 on Oct 2, 2018 14:06:40 GMT
That was my only real complaint with the Bruce Timm DCAU; mainly Batman Beyond, because it ultimately established that Bruce ends up driving them all away; and all of them - Barbara, Dick and Tim, all regret putting on the costume and resent Bruce . I haven't read that much of 'Batman Beyond' to be honest and out of all the Bat Universe titles I have got over the years which has been a LOT like Batman, Batman & Robin, Detective Comics, Batgirl, Nightwing, Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Teen Titans, Titans, Red Hood and the Outlaws, the Black Canary (Dinah Drake), the Huntress, Robin: Son of Batman, Harley Quinn, Catwoman, Deathstroke, Anarky, Midnighter, Red Hood/Arsenal, Suicide Squad, Secret Six, Gotham City Sirens, Talon, We Are Robin, Grayson, Batman: Incorporated, Batman/Superman, Poison Ivy, the Joker, GCPD, Gotham Central, Gotham City Garage, Gotham Academy, Gotham by Midnight, Batman: White Knight etc, etc Batman Beyond is the series I have read the least of and I only saw one of the animated movies which was called 'Return of the Joker' which came out in 2000. I am confused as to whether it is supposed to be an elseworlds story or an official future to the Batman comic books 'cause there are a lot of continuity errors in the issues I have read and many missing characters that aren't mentioned and resenting putting on the costumes 'cause of Bruce wouldn't lineup with characters like the Spoiler, Bluebird or Azrael for example since they put on their costumes before they become members of the Bat Family. Well, it started with the animated series and was only recently adapted as a comic book title a few years ago. I was mainly talking about the animated series; I've read a little of the Batman Beyond comic when it first started, but haven't actively read any titles in a while. Return of the Joker was the main example I was referring to, how everything is depicted as Barbara and Tim resenting their time as masked heroes, and eluding to the same with Dick Grayson. I mean, it's not that outlandish, with Tim being kidnapped and brainwashed like that; that's going to leave some deep emotional scars, but Tim Drake in the animated series is probably the least faithful adaptation of any of the DC heroes, when in the comics he's portrayed as a genius, and even Bruce makes a comment at one point how he expects they'll all be working for Tim someday. On top of that, Bruce ends up alone and bitter, at least until Terry comes along. Since Justice League and Justice League Unlimited came after Batman Beyond, I held out hope that somehow they might rewrite history at some point and at least set the stage for the future of Batman and his extended family to be a little better; especially with them developing a potential relationship between Bruce and Diana - you know, what's the point of them alluding to something between these two characters if we know Bruce ends up old and alone, unless they were going to change that? And eventually Bruce does get a glimpse of the future, yet it doesn't seem to have any affect. With the comic book version, it's a little harder to say. I think it's one of those wibley wobley timey whimey type of things, where it exists a perpetually possible future; that because time never truly marches on from the perspective of the present day continuity, will never catch up. You know, the same way that at any given time, Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman have only been active for 5-10 years, everything just keeps getting pushed forward to keep that true. It could be hypertime or some other concept they haven't decided on. When they first started it, with Terry traveling back to stop Brother Eye, only to end up not traveling far enough back, yet still being in the future; I had hoped for a more solid resolution of everything "future-tense," but that clearly wasn't going to happen....
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Post by General Kenobi on Oct 2, 2018 15:30:18 GMT
Man. Time travel is weird. Yo time travel. Why you so cray-cray?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2018 10:46:24 GMT
I haven't read that much of 'Batman Beyond' to be honest and out of all the Bat Universe titles I have got over the years which has been a LOT like Batman, Batman & Robin, Detective Comics, Batgirl, Nightwing, Batwoman, Birds of Prey, Teen Titans, Titans, Red Hood and the Outlaws, the Black Canary (Dinah Drake), the Huntress, Robin: Son of Batman, Harley Quinn, Catwoman, Deathstroke, Anarky, Midnighter, Red Hood/Arsenal, Suicide Squad, Secret Six, Gotham City Sirens, Talon, We Are Robin, Grayson, Batman: Incorporated, Batman/Superman, Poison Ivy, the Joker, GCPD, Gotham Central, Gotham City Garage, Gotham Academy, Gotham by Midnight, Batman: White Knight etc, etc Batman Beyond is the series I have read the least of and I only saw one of the animated movies which was called 'Return of the Joker' which came out in 2000. I am confused as to whether it is supposed to be an elseworlds story or an official future to the Batman comic books 'cause there are a lot of continuity errors in the issues I have read and many missing characters that aren't mentioned and resenting putting on the costumes 'cause of Bruce wouldn't lineup with characters like the Spoiler, Bluebird or Azrael for example since they put on their costumes before they become members of the Bat Family. Well, it started with the animated series and was only recently adapted as a comic book title a few years ago. I was mainly talking about the animated series; I've read a little of the Batman Beyond comic when it first started, but haven't actively read any titles in a while. Return of the Joker was the main example I was referring to, how everything is depicted as Barbara and Tim resenting their time as masked heroes, and eluding to the same with Dick Grayson. I mean, it's not that outlandish, with Tim being kidnapped and brainwashed like that; that's going to leave some deep emotional scars, but Tim Drake in the animated series is probably the least faithful adaptation of any of the DC heroes, when in the comics he's portrayed as a genius, and even Bruce makes a comment at one point how he expects they'll all be working for Tim someday. On top of that, Bruce ends up alone and bitter, at least until Terry comes along. Since Justice League and Justice League Unlimited came after Batman Beyond, I held out hope that somehow they might rewrite history at some point and at least set the stage for the future of Batman and his extended family to be a little better; especially with them developing a potential relationship between Bruce and Diana - you know, what's the point of them alluding to something between these two characters if we know Bruce ends up old and alone, unless they were going to change that? And eventually Bruce does get a glimpse of the future, yet it doesn't seem to have any affect. With the comic book version, it's a little harder to say. I think it's one of those wibley wobley timey whimey type of things, where it exists a perpetually possible future; that because time never truly marches on from the perspective of the present day continuity, will never catch up. You know, the same way that at any given time, Superman and Batman and Wonder Woman have only been active for 5-10 years, everything just keeps getting pushed forward to keep that true. It could be hypertime or some other concept they haven't decided on. When they first started it, with Terry traveling back to stop Brother Eye, only to end up not traveling far enough back, yet still being in the future; I had hoped for a more solid resolution of everything "future-tense," but that clearly wasn't going to happen.... Okay. There are lot of fans who have been disappointed with the use and lack of use of Tim Drake in animated movies and TV shows and many think some of the latest ‘Batman’ animated movies would have been better if they had used Tim Drake over Damian Wayne and the animated movies seem to have skipped over Tim Drake in favour of Damian and I think it is most likely ‘cause of his age and DC think having Damian appeals to more of the younger viewers and they enjoy playing out the Father/ Son relationship between Bruce and Damian. I personally think the ‘Batman’ animated movies would be better if they had a different Bat Family member working with Batman in every one of them and that way we could see one with Robin (Tim Drake), one with The Spoiler, one with Orphan, one with Bluebird, one with the Signal and one with Batwing giving many characters a chance in animation.
It is sad the very first appearance of The Spoiler in animation is in ‘Young Justice’ and not a ‘Batman’ animated movie or TV show and Orphan is set to make her first appearances in ‘Gotham’ and ‘Birds of Prey’ before she has appeared in animation. Back on the topic of Tim though are you reading any of the latest Rebirth comic books ‘cause they have pulled in some real curveballs lately and there is a future version of Tim Drake from an alternate timeline in DC Rebirth that goes by the name of Savior and I won’t spoil too much for you but he travels back in time to the present day to stop a dystopian universe and if that means killing superheroes that get in his way he has no problem with doing that and it is very different than anything we have seen with Tim Drake before and he is a picture of him as Savior.
I don’t mind the name Savior and with Damian using the Robin name I wouldn’t be opposed to them coming up with a way for Tim to use it in the future but as the normal Tim ‘cause they have had Dick Grayson and Jason Todd go from being Robins to Nightwing and Red Hood and Stephanie Brown and Casandra Cain go from Batgirls to The Spoiler and Orphan (well, Stephanie originally debuted as The Spoiler and was a Batgirl and a Robin but now she is The Spoiler) and if DC came up with a new name for Kate Kane they could have Barbara Gordon become Batwoman. Barbara has said a few times she should have the Batwoman mantle and in Gail Simone’s ‘Batgirl’ New 52 series when Kate Kane is in it she must be older than Kate Kane ‘cause Dick says she is the oldest member of the Bat Family and Barbara says she should have got the Batwoman mantle ‘cause she has been doing it longer than all of them.
You’re right about the comic book universe being wibley wobley and over the years we have seen so many changes to what was considered to be the future I don’t think anything can be classed as being definitive like even in New 52 and Rebirth they have changed so many things in such a short amount of time that continuity has been thrown completely out the window now and resetting the timeline in Batman has made things very confusing for fans with the Bat Family ‘cause of how many members there are and some of them like Dick and Barbara were with Batman for at least a decade or more in the timeline in comics before they went their own way but the way they are saying it now sounds as if Dick and Barbara were only with Bruce for a year and a half before Jason Todd came along and just a few months after he was believed to be dead Tim came along. There was similar confusion in the 'Arkham' timeline when they had Tim Drake as Robin instead of Dick or Jason in the 'Batgirl' prequel game.
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