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Post by Morgana on Sept 25, 2018 9:14:16 GMT
In my head it’s hard to separate book Cat and show Cat at this point, but aside from her attitude toward Jon I always thought she was a fairly strong woman and a caring wife and mother. You could say she acted rashly at times and you wouldn’t be wrong but overall I didn’t have much problem with her. Since you've read the books, can you tell me what the reason was for them going to war if it wasn't because Robb chose to marry for love and not for duty?
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 25, 2018 9:20:25 GMT
I also can't help but wonder why Ned didn't tell her the truth about Jon Snow. She was faithful enough to keep the secret, and she wouldn't have had cause to resent Jon for his entire life. Perhaps he was trying to protect her from what could have happened had the secret gotten out. Yes, it might have turned her jealous of Jon. The thing to remember is that when Lord Eddard came back from the war he was still not very intimate with Catelyn. She was first supposed to marry Eddard's elder brother who was more of a chivalrous type and extremely liked by Catelyn. But marriage to Eddard was a compromise to her as her first choice (Eddard's elder brother) was killed by the mad king. Remember that Catelyn still was a woman of high character. She accepted Eddard and was a dutiful wife. She was a very strong woman in that she didn't lose her Tully identity and didn't accept northern ways. If you read the books you will find that even after 15 years of marriage she still feels alien to northern culture but yet is a dutiful Lady of House Stark. (The answer also applies to @forceghostackbar )
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Post by Marv on Sept 25, 2018 9:52:42 GMT
In my head it’s hard to separate book Cat and show Cat at this point, but aside from her attitude toward Jon I always thought she was a fairly strong woman and a caring wife and mother. You could say she acted rashly at times and you wouldn’t be wrong but overall I didn’t have much problem with her. Since you've read the books, can you tell me what the reason was for them going to war if it wasn't because Robb chose to marry for love and not for duty? The Lannisters and Starks went to war because the Lannisters took Ned hostage and killed their entire entourage save for Sansa and Arya. The acts before that were not officially war but once that happened there were actual soldiers in fields fighting one another. Robb marrying for love pretty much triggered the end to that war, since it directly leads to the red wedding.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 25, 2018 11:00:20 GMT
I also can't help but wonder why Ned didn't tell her the truth about Jon Snow. She was faithful enough to keep the secret, and she wouldn't have had cause to resent Jon for his entire life. Because Ned, like Stannis, was such a sucky person that he covered up his wrongdoing with the notion of honor which is ridiculous and absurd. The moment he put everyone at risk to protect a dead girl was the moment he lost all honor and he knew that. He's horrible.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 25, 2018 11:01:52 GMT
I acknowledge that she is a well-written character, but she is unintelligent and her actions caused the war. Worst of all, she has no personality. I do agree that her hasty actions did led to war. That said she was a well meaning person in herself. Do think that she exerted a significant influence at least on Lord Stark and to some extent on Sansa. It was not her fault. Tywin's actions were the ones that were hasty.
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 25, 2018 11:05:33 GMT
I do agree that her hasty actions did led to war. That said she was a well meaning person in herself. Do think that she exerted a significant influence at least on Lord Stark and to some extent on Sansa. It was not her fault. Tywin's actions were the ones that were hasty. She should not have captured Tyrion. Just informed her husband of all. Though just to clarify I did not meant her actions alone led to war. More as in accelerated or contributed to the war which was caused by multiple factors.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 25, 2018 11:16:06 GMT
It was not her fault. Tywin's actions were the ones that were hasty. She should not have captured Tyrion. Just informed her husband of all. Though just to clarify I did not meant her actions alone led to war. More as in accelerated or contributed to the war which was caused by multiple factors. You're saying that if Tyrion is accused of murder, he should be allowed to go free through her lands without repercussion? That makes no sense. People died for less. Again, she was under a measure of duress and should have handled it differently, but the direct cause of war was Tywin attacking the Riverlands. The indirect cause was the attempt on Bran's life which means Joffrey both indirectly caused it and exacerbated it by killing Ned.
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 25, 2018 11:21:13 GMT
She should not have captured Tyrion. Just informed her husband of all. Though just to clarify I did not meant her actions alone led to war. More as in accelerated or contributed to the war which was caused by multiple factors. You're saying that if Tyrion is accused of murder, he should be allowed to go free through her lands without repercussion? That makes no sense. People died for less. Again, she was under a measure of duress and should have handled it differently, but the direct cause of war was Tywin attacking the Riverlands. The indirect cause was the attempt on Bran's life which means Joffrey both indirectly caused it and exacerbated it by killing Ned. She isn't any law. Evidence for murder is not a proof of murder. And only a thoughtless person will kidnap the son of a house that was probably the second most powerful in the kingdom at that time and in reality in position to manage the affairs of even the most powerful house (Baratheons) because the most powerful house had a drunkard for a king, who was sorrunded by Lannisters. And I am not sure why you are talking about Tywin's actions (Leo is better person to talk about that) as I have never denied his part in the war.
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Post by jon snow loves sansa on Sept 25, 2018 11:34:19 GMT
I was watching some of the earlier episodes of GOT and came to realise how conflicted a woman she was. How much she lost and how much the events turned her into a bitter self pitying character. The self pitying part is very detailed in the books.
I used to criticise her so much. I think I shouldn't have judged her so harshly. Yeah, she was resentful towards Jon but that's not all she was. She was a caring wife and a loving mother.
good question AJ im very conflicted about catelyn stark , i absolutely hated how she treated jon her "stepson" , cat loved ned so despite how jon came to be or what she was led to believe who he was neds bastard son , i will never understand how she could despise a son of neds so much? and i also didnt like how ned let this go on , those times women obeyed their husbands wishes and couldnt he tell her that was not acceptable behavior and jon was his son and will be part of this family including events like the one they had when king robert visited with his family jon was thrown out like a servant/stable boy ,and was seated in back of tables, and i wonder if indeed jon was neds true bastard son if he would have let this cold treatment from catelyn go on? i highly doubt it , i guess him knowing it was only his nephew he kept mum.I blame ned as much as i do cat. Ned was wrong not telling catelyn but i dont think he trusted her crazy family ( sister Liza) we all know she was the cause of starks/lannisters feud before that their common enemy was the targaryens, they lived in peace with the lannisters for number of years co-existing , correct me if im wrong. I dont understand how some women treat stepchildren that way, they are innocent , jon was innocent, or could have been a mothers intuition jon being unintentionally cause of her family deaths to come she always looked at him with so much hatred ,but i do think catelyn was remorseful for her treatment of jon thats how i understood her conversation with Talisa . Cat was a good mother to her own children sometimes hovering over too much like her meddling with rob/talisa relationship but she was a good mother and did all she could to protect her children , blood/biology doesnt always make a family ,Love does and i would have liked catelyn more if she had accepted jon as one of her own. I think jon wanted catelyn to love him like a son ,i think he cared for her despite her awful treatment of him , sansa looks a lot like her mother im sorry to be making this connection but if jonsa theory does happen , jon will be loved by a stark woman who resembled a lot someone who hated him , that would be karma or irony i think it was very sympolic when jon and sansa reunited sansa apologized to jon for treating him badly ( something her mother did all the time) and i think sansa now realizes her mothers treatment of jon was unjust , and she wants to fix it accepting jon , "you are a stark to me"
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 25, 2018 11:46:59 GMT
I was watching some of the earlier episodes of GOT and came to realise how conflicted a woman she was. How much she lost and how much the events turned her into a bitter self pitying character. The self pitying part is very detailed in the books.
I used to criticise her so much. I think I shouldn't have judged her so harshly. Yeah, she was resentful towards Jon but that's not all she was. She was a caring wife and a loving mother.
good question AJ im very conflicted about catelyn stark , i absolutely hated how she treated jon her "stepson" , cat loved ned so despite how jon came to be or what she was led to believe who he was neds bastard son , i will never understand how she could despise a son of neds so much? and i also didnt like how ned let this go on , those times women obeyed their husbands wishes and couldnt he tell her that was not acceptable behavior and jon was his son and will be part of this family including events like the one they had when king robert visited with his family jon was thrown out like a servant/stable boy ,and was seated in back of tables, and i wonder if indeed jon was neds true bastard son if he would have let this cold treatment from catelyn go on? i highly doubt it , i guess him knowing it was only his nephew he kept mum.I blame ned as much as i do cat. Ned was wrong not telling catelyn but i dont think he trusted her crazy family ( sister Liza) we all know she was the cause of starks/lannisters feud before that their common enemy was the targaryens, they lived in peace with the lannisters for number of years co-existing , correct me if im wrong. I dont understand how some women treat stepchildren that way, they are innocent , jon was innocent, or could have been a mothers intuition jon being unintentionally cause of her family deaths to come she always looked at him with so much hatred ,but i do think catelyn was remorseful for her treatment of jon thats how i understood her conversation with Talisa . Cat was a good mother to her own children sometimes hovering over too much like her meddling with rob/talisa relationship but she was a good mother and did all she could to protect her children , blood/biology doesnt always make a family ,Love does and i would have liked catelyn more if she had accepted jon as one of her own. I think jon wanted catelyn to love him like a son ,i think he cared for her despite her awful treatment of him , sansa looks a lot like her mother im sorry to be making this connection but if jonsa theory does happen , jon will be loved by a stark woman who resembled a lot someone who hated him , that would be karma or irony i think it was very sympolic when jon and sansa reunited sansa apologized to jon for treating him badly ( something her mother did all the time) and i think sansa now realizes her mothers treatment of jon was unjust , and she wants to fix it accepting jon , "you are a stark to me" Good points. As I said her treatment of Jon was definitely unfair and verging on cruelty. One of the reasons for that might have been how she might have been hurt badly by the fact that her husband proved infidel (not that he actually was). Remember that in the books it is suggested that Catelyn was not a sort of woman who would have ever liked Eddard as her husband in her young days. Eddard is described as being very simple. His brother on the contrary was more what a typical Catelyn type woman would want. He was taller and handsomer than Ned. But Ned was known very highly for one thing. His honour. Even when he and Robert were prodigies of Joan Arryn, it was known that Eddard was a very simple man and didn't go around philandering like Robert did. So the only big thing after loss of her would be husband (Ned's brother) was that she was to be married to an honourable man. But discovering that he was infidel to her would have been a lot to take. Also see how much she would have to compromise her dreams in getting along with a stern person like Ned. I mean unlike his brother who was boisterous and exciting, Ned kept to Winterfell all the time. In terms of personal character when it comes to treatment of one's wife Ned was like Tywin and Randyll Tarly. Both Tywin and Randyll loved their wife and were stern people who didn't go on having relations with other women. Well tywin eventually did get in relation with Shae perhaps.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 25, 2018 12:23:02 GMT
You're saying that if Tyrion is accused of murder, he should be allowed to go free through her lands without repercussion? That makes no sense. People died for less. Again, she was under a measure of duress and should have handled it differently, but the direct cause of war was Tywin attacking the Riverlands. The indirect cause was the attempt on Bran's life which means Joffrey both indirectly caused it and exacerbated it by killing Ned. She isn't any law. Evidence for murder is not a proof of murder. And only a thoughtless person will kidnap the son of a house that was probably the second most powerful in the kingdom at that time and in reality in position to manage the affairs of even the most powerful house (Baratheons) because the most powerful house had a drunkard for a king, who was sorrunded by Lannisters. And I am not sure why you are talking about Tywin's actions (Leo is better person to talk about that) as I have never denied his part in the war. She is the law of the land as a Tully. The Lannisters has no greater influence in the Riberlands than they did the North. The king can override it of course but it doesn’t make sense to say they she had no authority on her own property. She literally explained her authority at the inn with no one contesting it. Tywin, on the other hand, raised an army, slaughtered hundreds if not thousands for a kid he doesn’t even like, when all he had to do was call his son in law who is massively in debt to him to get his hated son back.
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 25, 2018 12:28:11 GMT
She isn't any law. Evidence for murder is not a proof of murder. And only a thoughtless person will kidnap the son of a house that was probably the second most powerful in the kingdom at that time and in reality in position to manage the affairs of even the most powerful house (Baratheons) because the most powerful house had a drunkard for a king, who was sorrunded by Lannisters. And I am not sure why you are talking about Tywin's actions (Leo is better person to talk about that) as I have never denied his part in the war. She is the law of the land as a Tully. The Lannisters has no greater influence in the Riberlands than they did the North. The king can override it of course but it doesn’t make sense to say they she had no authority on her own property. She literally explained her authority at the inn with no one contesting it. Tywin, on the other hand, raised an army, slaughtered hundreds if not thousands for a kid he doesn’t even like, when all he had to do was call his son in law who is massively in debt to him to get his hated son back. That would apply if Lannister was her subject. He was not. And only a fool will kidnap a brother of the queen and a son of the Lord who had biggest army and not expect to endanger a war. Those were feudal times. Her action was simply an invitation for Tywin to retaliate. It's not that he should have retaliated or not. It was more a matter of would he have retaliated or not? The answer is clear. He would have obviously retaliated.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Sept 25, 2018 12:28:41 GMT
I remember hating her so much for causing the disastrous war. I can understand her not liking Jon Snow because every time she saw him she was reminded of what thought was her husband's infidelity. Having not read the books, I'm not sure who Lady Stoneheart is, but from the comments I'm guessing she would have been a good addition to the series. Pity they didn't use her. She did not cause the war. Her taking Tyrion sent Lannister armies on the march but they would have gone home the moment Tyrion walked into Tywin's tent. The war started when Robb attacked Lannister armies in two places at the same time. He did this because his father had been arrested for contesting Joffrey's legitimacy. Ned didn't do this because of anything Cat' did, he did it out of plain blind sense of righteousness, uncaring of the consequences. Lady Stoneheart is one of the best omissions of the show. More stupid fantasy zombie stuff.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 25, 2018 12:30:33 GMT
The funny thing is if not for Tywin, Ned would have started the war anyway.
There was no way he wasn’t going to investigate Arryn’s death and Tywin would have fought for survival anyway once the incest was discovered
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Sept 25, 2018 12:35:32 GMT
I do agree that her hasty actions did led to war. That said she was a well meaning person in herself. Do think that she exerted a significant influence at least on Lord Stark and to some extent on Sansa. It was not her fault. Tywin's actions were the ones that were hasty. Tywin's actions were nothing that could not be de-escalated. He did not start the War of the Five Kings, he started a petty war of intimidation to get his son back. Once word had got out that Joffrey was accused of illegitimacy, however, this was nothing that could be taken back. The dumb northern dog had scattered the seed of war to the winds, for any ambitious or jealous pretender to pick up.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Sept 25, 2018 12:41:26 GMT
Ned was wrong not telling catelyn … I dont understand how some women treat stepchildren that way, they are innocent , jon was innocent, Terrible writing by a man who has the mentality of a 15 year old, paints the world only in crude extremes and always cranks everything up to 11.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 25, 2018 12:42:07 GMT
She is the law of the land as a Tully. The Lannisters has no greater influence in the Riberlands than they did the North. The king can override it of course but it doesn’t make sense to say they she had no authority on her own property. She literally explained her authority at the inn with no one contesting it. Tywin, on the other hand, raised an army, slaughtered hundreds if not thousands for a kid he doesn’t even like, when all he had to do was call his son in law who is massively in debt to him to get his hated son back. That would apply if Lannister was her subject. He was not. And only a fool will kidnap a brother of the queen and a son of the Lord who had biggest army and not expect to endanger a war. Those were feudal times. Her action was simply an invitation for Tywin to retaliate. It's not that he should have retaliated or not. It was more a matter of would he have retaliated or not? The answer is clear. He would have obviously retaliated. Crimes are not based on citizenship. He’s not absolved of Crimes committed just for being a Lannister. Tywin isn’t absolved just because he’s a Lannister. If murder is against the law then the 7 Kingdoms can administer justice as they see fit. There was no reason for her to assume Tywin would go Rambo on the Riverlands since he was working outside the norms.
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 25, 2018 12:49:02 GMT
That would apply if Lannister was her subject. He was not. And only a fool will kidnap a brother of the queen and a son of the Lord who had biggest army and not expect to endanger a war. Those were feudal times. Her action was simply an invitation for Tywin to retaliate. It's not that he should have retaliated or not. It was more a matter of would he have retaliated or not? The answer is clear. He would have obviously retaliated. Crimes are not based on citizenship. He’s not absolved of Crimes committed just for being a Lannister. Tywin isn’t absolved just because he’s a Lannister. If murder is against the law then the 7 Kingdoms can administer justice as they see fit. There was no reason for her to assume Tywin would go Rambo on the Riverlands since he was working outside the norms. There was no proof of his crime. Yes, there is a reason to believe Tywin went Rambo since his son got abducted. When Jaime met Eddard in the city that was told to him as well.
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Post by Aj_June on Sept 25, 2018 12:52:19 GMT
"I am looking for my brother."
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Sept 25, 2018 13:01:20 GMT
Crimes are not based on citizenship. He’s not absolved of Crimes committed just for being a Lannister. Tywin isn’t absolved just because he’s a Lannister. If murder is against the law then the 7 Kingdoms can administer justice as they see fit. There was no reason for her to assume Tywin would go Rambo on the Riverlands since he was working outside the norms. There was no proof of his crime. Yes, there is a reason to believe Tywin went Rambo since his son got abducted. When Jaime met Eddard in the city that was told to him as well. There was as much proof of the crime as any other at the start of a trial. His son was arrested and he had several channels to deal with it and chose the battle option not to mention the flat out plunder of lands prior to starting the war. He was wanting to teach a lesson and especially since it involved Ned.
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