|
Post by goz on Nov 16, 2018 21:46:14 GMT
Continuing the last thread, however I would like the Christians of the Board's views on this.
*****Does 'it' survive after death? *****
*****
I agree. I fail to see how whatever has constituted the consciousness, can survive without some kind of a 'host' for want of a better word.
Since we know that the brain provides this host and facility in life, I fail to see that there can be ANY argument that what makes us.....'us' can exist.
Let's just play Devil's Advocate for a moment and presume that it does.
What good would that do 'us' if we cannot live as previously with the same thoughts impulses, feelings, preferences loves hates and no environment (world) to practice all this.
THEN if you go a step further and say that we might be 're-incarnated' in another body, surely the process which formed these things that make us 'us' will be VERY different next time, totally discounting for a moment the tricky question of identical DNA, which, combined with environment frames our whole person.
It is all very well for the wishful thinkers to say that we MUST have a soul and it is 'eternal' butt I don't think they have really thought this thing through, for the above reasons.*****
|
|
|
Post by heeeeey on Nov 17, 2018 0:46:21 GMT
You don't know what consciousness is or where it originates, that's why you're ignorant.
|
|
|
Post by goz on Nov 17, 2018 0:57:59 GMT
You don't know what consciousness is or where it originates, that's why you're ignorant. Why don't you tell us YET again Heeeeey? Where EXACTLY does consciousness originate EXCEPT in the human brain? You' re the ignorant one if you think it is anywhere else, as we have discussed in the last thread. Would you like me to add something to the Poll?
|
|
|
Post by heeeeey on Nov 17, 2018 1:00:33 GMT
You don't know what consciousness is or where it originates, that's why you're ignorant. Why don't you tell us YET again Heeeeey? Where EXACTLY does consciousness originate EXCEPT in the human brain? You' re the ignorant one if you think it is anywhere else, as we have discussed in the last thread. Would you like me to add something to the Poll? No, it does NOT 'originate' in the brain as the scientists in your studies 'claim' (read: not proved).
|
|
|
Post by goz on Nov 17, 2018 1:08:37 GMT
Why don't you tell us YET again Heeeeey? Where EXACTLY does consciousness originate EXCEPT in the human brain? You' re the ignorant one if you think it is anywhere else, as we have discussed in the last thread. Would you like me to add something to the Poll? No, it does NOT 'originate' in the brain as the scientists in your studies 'claim' (read: not proved). ..and yet the evidence is overwhelmingly that it does, as proven by the way scientists and neurologist and brain surgeons are able to manipulate the brain to change human consciousness, map it in the case of brain death and otherwise medically understand the workings of the human brain.
|
|
|
Post by Arlon10 on Nov 17, 2018 9:53:47 GMT
No, it does NOT 'originate' in the brain as the scientists in your studies 'claim' (read: not proved). ..and yet the evidence is overwhelmingly that it does, as proven by the way scientists and neurologist and brain surgeons are able to manipulate the brain to change human consciousness, map it in the case of brain death and otherwise medically understand the workings of the human brain. Greetings, Mr. Spock It's difficult to say how much or what survives death. Your attempts to force it to be comparable to things you know are not helping. It is however rather obvious something is there in life though.
|
|
|
Post by faustus5 on Nov 17, 2018 12:51:45 GMT
You don't know what consciousness is or where it originates, that's why you're ignorant. Actually, we do, shit for brains.
Here is an article that is too complex for your tiny, barely functioning brain to grasp, but for those here who are educated and capable of handling the material, it is a good outline of the scientific consensus regarding how brains create minds:
|
|
|
Post by heeeeey on Nov 17, 2018 14:45:16 GMT
You don't know what consciousness is or where it originates, that's why you're ignorant. Actually, we do, shit for brains.
Here is an article that is too complex for your tiny, barely functioning brain to grasp, but for those here who are educated and capable of handling the material, it is a good outline of the scientific consensus regarding how brains create minds:
There was once a scientific consensus that the Earth was flat too, dimwit.
|
|
|
Post by phludowin on Nov 17, 2018 14:58:55 GMT
Actually, we do, shit for brains.
Here is an article that is too complex for your tiny, barely functioning brain to grasp, but for those here who are educated and capable of handling the material, it is a good outline of the scientific consensus regarding how brains create minds: There was once a scientific consensus that the Earth was flat too, dimwit. There was? Maybe a consensus; but not a scientific one. At least not in the modern sense of science. And the reason why there is a scientific consensus that the Earth is not flat is because there is enough evidence for the non-flatness of Earth. Is there a comparable amount of evidence for body/soul duality? Maybe when it comes to discussing the soul, you should just listen to James Brown or Aretha Franklin.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 16:32:38 GMT
Imagine one had no knowledge of radio. One day one finds a radio and examines it. Music comes forth from the radio as one experiments with the controls. Some controls change the music - make it louder, quieter, produce different sound qualities, distort it, etc. Smash the radio and the music vanishes. "Oh," one says, "this radio creates music!"
That conclusion would entirely fit the evidence - and would be completely wrong. The radio creates the sound, yes, and even changes the music - but the music is created elsewhere and 'beamed' to the radio in a process that is not obvious to your experimentation.
One could hypothesise that your brain is like a radio; that your brain does not create consciousness, but rather that consciousness is 'beamed' into your brain from a source we cannot detect or, as yet, understand. Changes to the brain changes your consciousness - drugs, damage, etc. Under this hypothesis that would make sense, it's like changing the music by altering the radio. Smash the brain, and consciousness apparently ceases. Again, under this hypothesis that doesn't mean that consciousness has actually stopped, it's just that your brain isn't receiving it any more.
What's the true source? Perhaps a supernatural soul. Or a deity. Or perhaps it's a dragon floating in space in the Andromeda galaxy - a big ball of seven billion floating dragons, each projecting a consciousness into your brain. Every time somebody is born, a new dragon pops into existence.
Here's the thing, though. The conclusion about the radio isn't right, but it is the conclusion that the evidence supports. And if somebody wants to claim "no, this music is transmitted from somewhere else" then one would have to produce evidence to support that claim - one would have to come up with a way of detecting the 'radio waves'.
Likewise, we don't know where consciousness comes from, but all the evidence we have indicates that it is a process of the brain. That is the only reasonable conclusion, and it remains the only reasonable conclusion for now even if it turns out to be wrong in the future. There's nothing wrong with this; in science all conclusions are tentative, and all are subject to revision.
But that revision comes only when somebody provides evidence to prove that revision is needed. And nobody has ever provided proof that consciousness comes from anywhere other than the brain. If they want to believe it - or want other people to believe it - then they really need to provide that evidence. They need to come up with the equivalent of detecting the radio signals. And if they can't do that, then their hypothesis is nothing more or less than wishful thinking.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2018 16:39:10 GMT
Actually, we do, shit for brains.
Here is an article that is too complex for your tiny, barely functioning brain to grasp, but for those here who are educated and capable of handling the material, it is a good outline of the scientific consensus regarding how brains create minds:
There was once a scientific consensus that the Earth was flat too, dimwit. No there wasn't. But there was a widespread belief that it was. Though it was never nearly as widespread as people seem to think - scholars have known the Earth is round for thousands of years. What changed that belief is evidence that the world was not flat. It's not like somebody said "The world is round!" one day and everyone said "yeah, that sounds good". It's certainly not the case that some holy book claimed it. So do you have evidence that the brain doesn't produce consciousness? I think you don't.
|
|
|
Post by lowtacks86 on Nov 17, 2018 16:46:56 GMT
Actually, we do, shit for brains.
Here is an article that is too complex for your tiny, barely functioning brain to grasp, but for those here who are educated and capable of handling the material, it is a good outline of the scientific consensus regarding how brains create minds:
There was once a scientific consensus that the Earth was flat too, dimwit. No it wasn't, most scientific/educated types knew the earth was round. Are you really this stupid or just a liar?
|
|
|
Post by goz on Nov 17, 2018 20:37:19 GMT
You don't know what consciousness is or where it originates, that's why you're ignorant. Actually, we do, shit for brains.
Here is an article that is too complex for your tiny, barely functioning brain to grasp, but for those here who are educated and capable of handling the material, it is a good outline of the scientific consensus regarding how brains create minds:
Thanks for posting that article. At first I thought 'published in 2001', won't be up to date, however I did not realise the holistic nature of the philosophy of this way of treating the subject matter and of how and why the complexity and detail of new scientific research, fits into this conversation. It opened my eyes to the problems associated with even discussing this topic which it addresses rather well. Heeeeey should really read it!
|
|
fatpaul
Sophomore
@fatpaul
Posts: 502
Likes: 193
|
Post by fatpaul on Nov 17, 2018 22:07:04 GMT
The thing I find interesting about soul belief is that it may even predate deity belief, such as ancestor worship and the like.
|
|
|
Post by goz on Nov 17, 2018 22:16:03 GMT
The thing I find interesting about soul belief is that it may even predate deity belief, such as ancestor worship and the like. Very interesting point. If you are a social evolutionist like me, you would perhaps say that the sense of 'self' predates the sense of 'other'. Further, your sense of other could be in the observable of your fellow man, creatures, survival and environment BEFORE you have the leisure to think about more abstract and complex notions like 'What am I... What is my place in life... Who am I...how did I get here' etc...as you propounded. IMHO this is mimicked in the growth and development of a baby. As the human brain develops and grows these evolutionary processes take place. It is so fascinating to watch small children develop these identically evolving precepts of consciousness as they grow.
|
|
fatpaul
Sophomore
@fatpaul
Posts: 502
Likes: 193
|
Post by fatpaul on Nov 17, 2018 22:34:10 GMT
If you are a social evolutionist like me, you would perhaps say that the sense of 'self' predates the sense of 'other'. Further, your sense of other could be in the observable of your fellow man, creatures, survival and environment BEFORE you have the leisure to think about more abstract and complex notions like 'What am I... What is my place in life... Who am I...how did I get here' etc...as you propounded. From an evolutionary point of view, I think this may have happened when we discovered how to control fire because for the first time in history, humans had a chance to be safe from predators and really consider our place in the world, mesmerized by the dancing flames flickering.
|
|
|
Post by drystyx on Nov 18, 2018 1:03:28 GMT
The problem is that all evidence proves that the soul is independent of the body and its senses.
Unless you think there is a huge conspiracy by every person who ever went blind to hide that this meant the "cognitive being" disappeared, and that the same for every person who lost the sense of touch or the sense of smell.
One would have to believe in the hugest conspiracy theory ever to think the "soul" dies with the body. Maybe it does, but it would take some great big deal of Magic or supernatural force.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
@Deleted
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2018 4:10:21 GMT
The problem is that all evidence proves that the soul is independent of the body and its senses. Given that there is no evidence that souls exist, this is not the case.
|
|
|
Post by heeeeey on Nov 18, 2018 8:59:19 GMT
Actually, we do, shit for brains.
Here is an article that is too complex for your tiny, barely functioning brain to grasp, but for those here who are educated and capable of handling the material, it is a good outline of the scientific consensus regarding how brains create minds:
Thanks for posting that article. At first I thought 'published in 2001', won't be up to date, however I did not realise the holistic nature of the philosophy of this way of treating the subject matter and of how and why the complexity and detail of new scientific research, fits into this conversation. It opened my eyes to the problems associated with even discussing this topic which it addresses rather well. Heeeeey should really read it! I stopped reading at "Theorists...". When you and that other twit faustus5 can post an official consensus of every notable scientist stating they know for certain that consciousness originates in the brain, then get back to me...unless that study says science has closed the books on that topic and is no longer doing studies.
|
|
|
Post by faustus5 on Nov 18, 2018 15:01:27 GMT
I stopped reading at "Theorists...". When you and that other twit faustus5 can post an official consensus of every notable scientist stating they know for certain that consciousness originates in the brain, then get back to me...unless that study says science has closed the books on that topic and is no longer doing studies. Since you have an uneducated child's view of how scientists do their jobs, of course nothing but this ridiculous standard would satisfy you. The fact that we have a major figure in the study of consciousness casually describing a consensus on a theory of consciousness in a paper written 17 years ago without fear of being challenged by his peer? It means nothing to you. That's okay--you're the laughing stock of this board and this kind of ignorant dismal is what you are known for. The fact that it means nothing to you and that you would stop reading after "theorists" just reinforces your status as a walking joke.
|
|