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Post by goz on Dec 5, 2018 23:36:35 GMT
understandWhat can't I understand? We all know that you cannot understand the science! If you are talking about 'new age' quasi scientific 'spiritual' out of body mumbo jumbo...there is really no point because it is wishful thinking wanna be total nonsense. AGAIN produce some evidence that it isn't! You haven't managed so far in all the threads on this pitiful subject! You don't understand what AWARENESS is. You actually believe it's brain chemicals. You believe the love you have for your family is nothing but brain chemicals. That's sad.
In other words, nothing exists for you unless it's proven by science. Atoms and bacteria did not exist until the microscope was invented. Well, there are things that exist now that science hasn't caught up to yet.
Post the evidence you have. I have posted mine, support by the whole medical and scientific community. WTF Where did I say that? No, again. I acknowledge it once it IS 'proven' by science, like the science of consciousness and awareness. Can you really be this stupid? Gee, Heeeey , even for YOU that is a big call!!!!! Agreed, though it isn't the science of awareness and consciousness in the brain and electricity in the body. What makes you think it is what YOU want it to be? Again, where is your evidence. Why are you avoiding posting it? You must have some basis for your outlandish proposals?
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Post by heeeeey on Dec 5, 2018 23:59:04 GMT
You don't understand what AWARENESS is. You actually believe it's brain chemicals. You believe the love you have for your family is nothing but brain chemicals. That's sad.
In other words, nothing exists for you unless it's proven by science. Atoms and bacteria did not exist until the microscope was invented. Well, there are things that exist now that science hasn't caught up to yet.
Post the evidence you have. I have posted mine, support by the whole medical and scientific community. WTF Where did I say that? No, again. I acknowledge it once it IS 'proven' by science, like the science of consciousness and awareness. Can you really be this stupid? Gee, Heeeey , even for YOU that is a big call!!!!! Agreed, though it isn't the science of awareness and consciousness in the brain and electricity in the body. What makes you think it is what YOU want it to be? Again, where is your evidence. Why are you avoiding posting it? You must have some basis for your outlandish proposals? So now you don't get sarcasm? I said that according to your rationale that everything is just chemicals, that means that love is just a chemical and the love you feel for your family is only due to chemicals in the brain. That's consistent with your side.
And to also be consistent with your 'rationale', that means that you wouldn't have believed there were atoms or bacteria, etc., until they could be discovered and seen, and not before, even though they did exist. Likewise, there are things that do exist whether your scientists have caught up or not.
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Post by goz on Dec 6, 2018 0:52:23 GMT
Post the evidence you have. I have posted mine, support by the whole medical and scientific community. WTF Where did I say that? No, again. I acknowledge it once it IS 'proven' by science, like the science of consciousness and awareness. Can you really be this stupid? Gee, Heeeey , even for YOU that is a big call!!!!! Agreed, though it isn't the science of awareness and consciousness in the brain and electricity in the body. What makes you think it is what YOU want it to be? Again, where is your evidence. Why are you avoiding posting it? You must have some basis for your outlandish proposals? So now you don't get sarcasm? I said that according to your rationale that everything is just chemicals, that means that love is just a chemical and the love you feel for your family is only due to chemicals in the brain. That's consistent with your side.
And to also be consistent with your 'rationale', that means that you wouldn't have believed there were atoms or bacteria, etc., until they could be discovered and seen, and not before, even though they did exist. Likewise, there are things that do exist whether your scientists have caught up or not.
No. That is not my rationale. BTW They are not 'my ' scientists Post your evidence or shut up. I posted mine. What 'things'? You keep avoiding this question, and in fact, all of my questions on the subject. [/quote]
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Post by heeeeey on Dec 6, 2018 1:12:03 GMT
So now you don't get sarcasm? I said that according to your rationale that everything is just chemicals, that means that love is just a chemical and the love you feel for your family is only due to chemicals in the brain. That's consistent with your side.
And to also be consistent with your 'rationale', that means that you wouldn't have believed there were atoms or bacteria, etc., until they could be discovered and seen, and not before, even though they did exist. Likewise, there are things that do exist whether your scientists have caught up or not.
No. That is not my rationale. BTW They are not 'my ' scientists Post your evidence or shut up. I posted mine. What 'things'? You keep avoiding this question, and in fact, all of my questions on the subject. Yes, they are YOUR scientists-- you hang on their every word.
How do you propose I prove something that is beyond your comprehension?
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Post by goz on Dec 6, 2018 1:22:43 GMT
No. That is not my rationale. BTW They are not 'my ' scientists Post your evidence or shut up. I posted mine. What 'things'? You keep avoiding this question, and in fact, all of my questions on the subject. Yes, they are YOUR scientists-- you hang on their every word.
How do you propose I prove something that is beyond your comprehension?
NO, they are not 'my scientists', they are exponents of the current level of human knowledge that we all rely in in Modern society. ..and what would that be? IF I can understand the science of human knowledge that powers our modern society, of which you participate, then show me evidence of something beyond my ( and my scientists' comprehension...YOUR words) that WE collectively don't understand What is it?
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Post by heeeeey on Dec 6, 2018 3:18:25 GMT
Yes, they are YOUR scientists-- you hang on their every word.
How do you propose I prove something that is beyond your comprehension?
NO, they are not 'my scientists', they are exponents of the current level of human knowledge that we all rely in in Modern society. ..and what would that be? IF I can understand the science of human knowledge that powers our modern society, of which you participate, then show me evidence of something beyond my ( and my scientists' comprehension...YOUR words) that WE collectively don't understand What is it? You never answered my question. What do your scientists say is the purpose of the brain creating 360° awareness outside of itself?
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Post by goz on Dec 6, 2018 3:29:16 GMT
NO, they are not 'my scientists', they are exponents of the current level of human knowledge that we all rely in in Modern society. ..and what would that be? IF I can understand the science of human knowledge that powers our modern society, of which you participate, then show me evidence of something beyond my ( and my scientists' comprehension...YOUR words) that WE collectively don't understand What is it? You never answered my question. What do your scientists say is the purpose of the brain creating 360° awareness outside of itself? Nice deflection from ever answering my request for evidence of your claim. DO IT or GTFO this thread. ...anyway
…1. what does this even mean?
2..there is NO evidence that the brain did anything except what the science proscribes.
Provide it or GTFO
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Post by rizdek on Dec 6, 2018 10:08:03 GMT
SinceI don't need to 'think' about it, because others before me have done the hard science ( and still are) giving me the answers if I only have enough intelligence and intellect to be able to read and understand the science. In your case I picked the simplest online explanation for dummies, though I doubt you will read it nor understand because you are perhaps the single stupidest poster on these Boards. health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/systems/nervous-system/human-body-make-electricity.htmIF you are comprehending this article at all. As I said previously, life in the body, circulation, consciousness in the brain is a complex chemical and electrical interaction. When this ceases, BOTH brain and body die. Since there is no other 'vehicle' of similar process, because life is caused by those processes, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that consciousness can continue. It is wishful thinking that a consciousness or soul could continue after death, because it simply CANNOT as there are none of these causative processes available. No body, no cell, no atoms, no chemicals, and no consequent electrical impulses getting to our brain to cause any of the bodily functions to happen. Dead. As we have discussed before, as this process happens the can be an 'interruption of these complex processes, and a near death experience can be experience due to hypoxia, IF the person subsequently survives to tell the tale. The are very real and explicable if you understand the underlying chemistry and physics. I have never disputed any of that, twit.
You are incapable of fathoming what I'm trying to explain to you. The atoms and chemicals are NOT 'awareness'. People who say 'hypoxia' creates NDE's are speculating because they have never had one. I'll be damned if someone who has never experienced something can tell someone who has what it was they experienced or what caused it. They are speculating from a point of ignorance.
Again, why would the brain bother to create an NDE or a simulation of a 360-degree awareness outside of itself? Think about how stupid that sounds. Why create an illusion of something that doesn't exist? Why don't these people come back saying they saw unicorns and leprechauns?
You want to stay stuck on chemistry because you're too limited to consider what's beyond it. You and that other twit faustus5 can only rely on what you're told because you don't have the intelligence to think for yourselves. Atoms and chemistry aren't magnetism or light, but somehow magnetism and light are produced or emerge from atoms. Gravity emerges from matter/energy. The strong and weak nuclear forces act on atoms.
www.nobelprize.org/prizes/themes/forces/I have no reason to think those forces aren't purely natural phenomena and don't emerge from the natural world. I see no reason to posit some other form of existence as the basis. Have you had a NDE? Can you describe it? What created it? "Again, why would the brain bother to create an NDE or a simulation of a 360-degree awareness outside of itself? " The brain might create an NDE because it is designed to produce images of the physical world around us because higher animals have a better survival potential if they can "picture" the world around them and make decisions/react to that world. The brain has to be able to to that. Our genes evolved to produce individuals who could do that. When I close my eyes I can picture a 3D world around me...the room I'm in and the stuff in that room, the other rooms of my house and the stuff in those rooms, the yard outside my house and the things in the yard, my neighborhood with houses and roads and even people etc. When I dream I picture a world and seem to be reacting to that picture. Why should I imagine dreaming requires any more than a natural world for an explanation? Please explain why dreams can't be explained through nature. So if the brain can allow me to picture a world around me...imagine it and also produce vivid dreams, why not believe it could continue to do that as part of an NDE and even be able to do it more efficiently and clearly because there are no other sensory inputs to distract it? I see no reason to introduce any thing other than nature to explain NDEs because I've not heard any explanation of another form of existence/realm/reality that make IT a better basis for NDEs. Please explain this other form of existence and why IT is a better explanation for NDEs than the things we just don't know yet about the natural world.
I'm not "stuck on chemistry" but neither do I see anything that would lead me to believe anything other than the natural world is necessary to explain any phenomena I am aware of/hear about. There is no reason to assume NDEs are anything but natural in origin.
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Post by rizdek on Dec 6, 2018 10:12:18 GMT
No. That is not my rationale. BTW They are not 'my ' scientists Post your evidence or shut up. I posted mine. What 'things'? You keep avoiding this question, and in fact, all of my questions on the subject. Yes, they are YOUR scientists-- you hang on their every word.
How do you propose I prove something that is beyond your comprehension?
She didn't ask you to prove anything. She asked that you post evidence. I don't even ask that. I simply ask that you explain, in your own words, why something other than nature is needed and how this "other" works and how you know it even could be the foundation of unexplained phenomena like NDE or other out of body experiences. IOW, specify the known limitations of the natural world and explain how the other world somehow avoids those limitations.
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Post by heeeeey on Dec 6, 2018 10:34:12 GMT
You never answered my question. What do your scientists say is the purpose of the brain creating 360° awareness outside of itself? Nice deflection from ever answering my request for evidence of your claim. DO IT or GTFO this thread. ...anyway …1. what does this even mean?
2..there is NO evidence that the brain did anything except what the science proscribes.
Provide it or GTFO
I haven't deflected and have answered you several times. The fact that you still ask proves that what I say flies over your head. Why does eternal existence disturb you?
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Post by heeeeey on Dec 6, 2018 10:35:50 GMT
Yes, they are YOUR scientists-- you hang on their every word.
How do you propose I prove something that is beyond your comprehension?
She didn't ask you to prove anything. She asked that you post evidence. I don't even ask that. I simply ask that you explain, in your own words, why something other than nature is needed and how this "other" works and how you know it even could be the foundation of unexplained phenomena like NDE or other out of body experiences. IOW, specify the known limitations of the natural world and explain how the other world somehow avoids those limitations. What created nature? The soul leaving the body at death is as natural as a butterfly shedding its cocoon.
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Post by rizdek on Dec 6, 2018 10:50:18 GMT
She didn't ask you to prove anything. She asked that you post evidence. I don't even ask that. I simply ask that you explain, in your own words, why something other than nature is needed and how this "other" works and how you know it even could be the foundation of unexplained phenomena like NDE or other out of body experiences. IOW, specify the known limitations of the natural world and explain how the other world somehow avoids those limitations. What created nature? The soul leaving the body at death is as natural as a butterfly shedding its cocoon. Was the natural created?
Perhaps the soul is natural and the experiences we hear about are natural in origin. There is much about nature we don't know.
www.space.com/11642-dark-matter-dark-energy-4-percent-universe-panek.html
But, we are pretty certain the natural world exists, so why not assume that the experiences heretofore unexplained are based or founded on the part of nature we don't know about?
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Post by heeeeey on Dec 6, 2018 11:01:55 GMT
What created nature? The soul leaving the body at death is as natural as a butterfly shedding its cocoon. Was the natural created?
Perhaps the soul is natural and the experiences we hear about are natural in origin. There is much about nature we don't know.
www.space.com/11642-dark-matter-dark-energy-4-percent-universe-panek.html
But, we are pretty certain the natural world exists, so why not assume that the experiences heretofore unexplained are based or founded on the part of nature we don't know about?
Because the only way to know certain things is by observation or experience. The dispute here is that arrogant people think they can explain what they have never experienced. They can only explain it in physical terms because the non-physical is beyond their comprehension. So to them, it doesn't exist.
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Post by rizdek on Dec 6, 2018 11:37:20 GMT
Was the natural created?
Perhaps the soul is natural and the experiences we hear about are natural in origin. There is much about nature we don't know.
www.space.com/11642-dark-matter-dark-energy-4-percent-universe-panek.html
But, we are pretty certain the natural world exists, so why not assume that the experiences heretofore unexplained are based or founded on the part of nature we don't know about?
Because the only way to know certain things is by observation or experience. The dispute here is that arrogant people think they can explain what they have never experienced. They can only explain it in physical terms because the non-physical is beyond their comprehension. So to them, it doesn't exist. Have you had a NDE?
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Post by heeeeey on Dec 6, 2018 16:33:00 GMT
Because the only way to know certain things is by observation or experience. The dispute here is that arrogant people think they can explain what they have never experienced. They can only explain it in physical terms because the non-physical is beyond their comprehension. So to them, it doesn't exist. Have you had a NDE? No, but I wouldn't be arrogant enough to tell someone who has that they didn't.
I have read that meditation can lead to the same kind of 'connection' with higher consciousness. That's why all those monks that goz and faustus would say are a bunch of idiots spend so much time meditating.
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Post by rizdek on Dec 6, 2018 16:56:26 GMT
No, but I wouldn't be arrogant enough to tell someone who has that they didn't.
I have read that meditation can lead to the same kind of 'connection' with higher consciousness. That's why all those monks that goz and faustus would say are a bunch of idiots spend so much time meditating.
Well, I don't know what others are saying or thinking, but I see no reason to doubt that people have interesting and difficult to explain consciousness experiences, out of body sensations and NDEs. But neither do I think they are anything but natural phenomena. As I understand it, some drugs and other things can cause out of body experiences. But given some dreams and sensations I've had, and given that folks are beginning to think consciousness might last long after traditional medical methods would declare someone dead, and given the fact that I've seen no lucid explanation of what consciousness is...ie what causes it and what causes it to cease, I don't know what to make of reported NDEs. OTOH given that ~95% of the universe consists of something scientists can't see, measure or detect in anyway except to assume it exists due to unexplained gravitational effects, it would seem to me there is more....much much more about the natural world that we DON'T know than that we do know.
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Post by goz on Dec 6, 2018 19:36:08 GMT
No, but I wouldn't be arrogant enough to tell someone who has that they didn't.
I have read that meditation can lead to the same kind of 'connection' with higher consciousness. That's why all those monks that goz and faustus would say are a bunch of idiots spend so much time meditating.
1. NDEs are real and explainable through physical processes. I never said otherwise. 2. I meditate. 3. Stop saying things that I have neither said nor implied. It just makes you look even more like an idiot.
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Post by goz on Dec 6, 2018 19:40:38 GMT
Nice deflection from ever answering my request for evidence of your claim. DO IT or GTFO this thread. ...anyway …1. what does this even mean?
2..there is NO evidence that the brain did anything except what the science proscribes.
Provide it or GTFO
I haven't deflected and have answered you several times. The fact that you still ask proves that what I say flies over your head. Why does eternal existence disturb you?There is no evidence of it. If we know how cognition/awareness works in the brain, and we do, as you admitted upon reading the article I posted, how can that cognition/awareness continue when the brain/host dies, and brain function ceases?
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Post by goz on Dec 6, 2018 19:43:36 GMT
She didn't ask you to prove anything. She asked that you post evidence. I don't even ask that. I simply ask that you explain, in your own words, why something other than nature is needed and how this "other" works and how you know it even could be the foundation of unexplained phenomena like NDE or other out of body experiences. IOW, specify the known limitations of the natural world and explain how the other world somehow avoids those limitations. What created nature? The soul leaving the body at death is as natural as a butterfly shedding its cocoon. What is this 'soul' and where does it go?
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Post by heeeeey on Dec 6, 2018 20:03:15 GMT
I haven't deflected and have answered you several times. The fact that you still ask proves that what I say flies over your head. Why does eternal existence disturb you?There is no evidence of it. If we know how cognition/awareness works in the brain, and we do, as you admitted upon reading the article I posted, how can that cognition/awareness continue when the brain/host dies, and brain function ceases? You may 'know' how awareness works in the brain, but not outside of it.
People who say they have experienced awareness outside of their body either via meditation or some kind of spiritual experience say they just felt their awareness expanded beyond their five senses. They became more aware. The spirit body or soul body is of a lesser density than the material body.
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