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Post by audiosane on Feb 6, 2019 13:31:12 GMT
I've been thinking about this question, on and off, for the past few years. If you had the power to undo the Atlantic slave trade, would you?
On one hand, you would be able to prevent all the horrors of black people dealing with slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow segregation, mass incarceration, racism and racial discrimination by white people, police brutality, etc.
On the other hand, anywhere from 90% - 95% of all black people in the entire Western hemisphere (U.S.A., South America, etc.) never leave Africa over those 400+ years. Among other things, this massively alters American history, American life and American culture.
Which do you choose?
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Post by Feologild Oakes on Feb 6, 2019 13:48:47 GMT
Why do people act as if the only slave trade in the world was Africa to North America, What about all the African women who was used as sex slaves in the middle east ?
But to answer the question yes i would undo it.
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Post by Prime etc. on Feb 6, 2019 13:56:46 GMT
Don't forget all the civilians killed during slave revolts, as well as the legacy of violent criminal activity that happened since then. The only ones who benefited were the slave owners and companies that made money from it. Ironically, the supporters of the slave trade argued very much like the modern day liberal globalist does on immigration--they said taking them from Africa was an act of mercy-sparing them bondage in their own country (slavery still exists in Africa and the Middle East). James Boswell said abolishing the West Indies slave trade would be "shutting the gates of mercy on mankind."
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Post by politicidal on Feb 6, 2019 15:47:25 GMT
I'd answer yes but I'd hate to leave the Irish to the same fate.
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Post by vegalyra on Feb 6, 2019 15:59:47 GMT
I'd vote to undo all slavery, then and now.
With regards to the Atlantic Slave Trade, the USA would be completely different, let alone most of the Caribbean and Latin American countries. The USA wouldn't have had to have all the compromise votes in the 19th century and stalemate which led to the civil war, the Constitution would have been worded differently (no more 3/5 compromise). Heck, the southern colonies like Georgia and South Carolina would have barely had any population.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Feb 6, 2019 19:56:22 GMT
I hate to say this, and I expect I'll get some hate for it, but if I had a time machine and could go back in time I would NOT undo anything in the past. Anything at all. Here's the problem...
How do you know what you'll be changing it to? How do you know you wont make things INFINITELY worse? How do you know you wont create a paradox of some kind and fuck EVERYTHING up?
That's the point of ALL time travel stories. Don't mess with history because there's always price to pay and that price is often worse.
HOWEVER...
If you mean that I'm a god like being and can change time and history with my god like powers... then yes, of course. Because with my god like powers I would be able to control any negative effects and consequences. I would be able to course correct.
But its never that easy.
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Post by ant-mac on Feb 6, 2019 20:17:58 GMT
I've been thinking about this question, on and off, for the past few years. If you had the power to undo the Atlantic slave trade, would you? On one hand, you would be able to prevent all the horrors of black people dealing with slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow segregation, mass incarceration, racism and racial discrimination by white people, police brutality, etc. On the other hand, anywhere from 90% - 95% of all black people in the entire Western hemisphere (U.S.A., South America, etc.) never leave Africa over those 400+ years. Among other things, this massively alters American history, American life and American culture. Which do you choose? Yes, without hesitation. Why should American culture, American history or American life play any part in my decision-making process? Or, for that matter, any factors that might affect my own country...?
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Post by Jep Gambardella on Feb 6, 2019 20:22:06 GMT
I would go much further than undoing the Atlantic slave trade: I would sink every European ship attempting to cross the Atlantic! Leave the Americas alone. What was done to the peoples of the Americas is several orders of magnitude worse than what was done to African slaves.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Feb 6, 2019 20:27:25 GMT
I hate to say this, and I expect I'll get some hate for it, but if I had a time machine and could go back in time I would NOT undo anything in the past. Anything at all. Here's the problem...
How do you know what you'll be changing it to? How do you know you wont make things INFINITELY worse? How do you know you wont create a paradox of some kind and fuck EVERYTHING up?
That's the point of ALL time travel stories. Don't mess with history because there's always price to pay and that price is often worse.
HOWEVER...
If you mean that I'm a god like being and can change time and history with my god like powers... then yes, of course. Because with my god like powers I would be able to control any negative effects and consequences. I would be able to course correct.
But its never that easy. That's why the crew of Star Trek had to follow the "Prime Directive", to never interfere with an established culture, and the few times they did go back in time, there were consequences both good and bad. If I could, I would go back in time and prevent ALL slave trades, from the Egyptians enslaving the Jews, and any primitive culture that took prisoners and made them slaves, to the enslavement of the Chinese and the enslavement of Africans, BUT... guess what? That's evolution - survival of the fittest. Us versus the 'other'. The Hebrews had slaves. The question is, can humans evolve beyond that? Or is it so hard-wired into our genetics that the strong will always victimize the weak? As another poster put it, " Why do people act as if the only slave trade in the world was Africa to North America?"
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Post by kuatorises on Feb 6, 2019 20:32:35 GMT
Yes, of course. Culture vs lives? No debate.
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Post by ant-mac on Feb 6, 2019 20:43:33 GMT
I hate to say this, and I expect I'll get some hate for it, but if I had a time machine and could go back in time I would NOT undo anything in the past. Anything at all. Here's the problem...
How do you know what you'll be changing it to? How do you know you wont make things INFINITELY worse? How do you know you wont create a paradox of some kind and fuck EVERYTHING up?
That's the point of ALL time travel stories. Don't mess with history because there's always price to pay and that price is often worse.
HOWEVER...
If you mean that I'm a god like being and can change time and history with my god like powers... then yes, of course. Because with my god like powers I would be able to control any negative effects and consequences. I would be able to course correct.
But its never that easy. That's why the crew of Star Trek had to follow the "Prime Directive", to never interfere with an established culture, and the few times they did go back in time, there were consequences both good and bad. If I could, I would go back in time and prevent ALL slave trades, from the Egyptians enslaving the Jews, and any primitive culture that took prisoners and made them slaves, to the enslavement of the Chinese and the enslavement of Africans, BUT... guess what? That's evolution - survival of the fittest. Us versus the 'other'. The Hebrews had slaves. The question is, can humans evolve beyond that? Or is it so hard-wired into our genetics that the strong will always victimize the weak? As another poster put it, " Why do people act as if the only slave trade in the world was Africa to North America?" Contemporary slavery, also known as modern slavery, refers to institutional slavery that continues to exist in present day society. Estimates of the number of slaves today range from around 21 000 000 to 70 000 000, depending on method used to estimate and the definition of slavery being used. Modern slavery is a multibillion-dollar industry with estimates of up to $35 000 000 000 generated annually. Something tells me it's not going away anytime soon.
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Post by rachelcarson1953 on Feb 6, 2019 20:45:07 GMT
I hate to say this, and I expect I'll get some hate for it, but if I had a time machine and could go back in time I would NOT undo anything in the past. Anything at all. Here's the problem...
How do you know what you'll be changing it to? How do you know you wont make things INFINITELY worse? How do you know you wont create a paradox of some kind and fuck EVERYTHING up?
That's the point of ALL time travel stories. Don't mess with history because there's always price to pay and that price is often worse.
HOWEVER...
If you mean that I'm a god like being and can change time and history with my god like powers... then yes, of course. Because with my god like powers I would be able to control any negative effects and consequences. I would be able to course correct.
But its never that easy. Have you ever seen the movie "Twelve Monkeys"? A perfect example...
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Feb 6, 2019 21:32:36 GMT
I've been thinking about this question, on and off, for the past few years. If you had the power to undo the Atlantic slave trade, would you? On one hand, you would be able to prevent all the horrors of black people dealing with slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow segregation, mass incarceration, racism and racial discrimination by white people, police brutality, etc. On the other hand, anywhere from 90% - 95% of all black people in the entire Western hemisphere (U.S.A., South America, etc.) never leave Africa over those 400+ years. Among other things, this massively alters American history, American life and American culture. Which do you choose? Yes, without hesitation. Why should American culture, American history or American life play any part in my decision-making process? Or, for that matter, any factors that might affect my own country...? Then what about the whites who became Australians who committed atrocities towards the Aboriginal people?
allthatsinteresting.com/australia-genocide
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Post by ant-mac on Feb 6, 2019 21:34:24 GMT
Yes, without hesitation. Why should American culture, American history or American life play any part in my decision-making process? Or, for that matter, any factors that might affect my own country...? Then what about the whites who became Australians who committed atrocities towards the Aboriginal people?
allthatsinteresting.com/australia-genocide
What about them? If you have a slavery-related question, please ask it.
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Post by lenlenlen1 on Feb 6, 2019 22:00:18 GMT
I hate to say this, and I expect I'll get some hate for it, but if I had a time machine and could go back in time I would NOT undo anything in the past. Anything at all. Here's the problem...
How do you know what you'll be changing it to? How do you know you wont make things INFINITELY worse? How do you know you wont create a paradox of some kind and fuck EVERYTHING up?
That's the point of ALL time travel stories. Don't mess with history because there's always price to pay and that price is often worse.
HOWEVER...
If you mean that I'm a god like being and can change time and history with my god like powers... then yes, of course. Because with my god like powers I would be able to control any negative effects and consequences. I would be able to course correct.
But its never that easy. What I'm saying is... what if you make the change and you think its going to turn out great. At first it may even seem so.
But a hundred years later "the Americas" are not doing too well because they don't have free slave labor to rely on. Without the unifying power of free money the Americas fracture into smaller states. The states never becomes the United States of America. Instead the continent becomes like Europe, several separate countries on one land mass, each in conflict with one another for dominance in the region. Wars rage between them.
Some of those American countries still need and want slaves. Maybe all of them. So what do they do? They go looking for other sources of slaves. Who do they find? Their old targets... the Native American Indian. They stop wiping them out and instead keep them as slaves. This is not a better situation for the native.
But they'd been killing them for so long that there aren't quite enough of them. They need more. So what do they do? They go south. To South America. Lots of indigenous people down there. Wars with what would become Mexican territories start even earlier then they did irl. Tons of natives are taken slave.
These warring American countries come into conflict with other countries. No Canada. No Mexico. No Central American nations. Soon enough Europe becomes embroiled as the fledgling nation seeks alliances with the greater powers of Europe. Germany, France, Spain and the United Kingdom in particular are at one another's throats because they all had interests in the Americas. Each one wants their American allied country to become the dominant force. The wars rage on.
In fact World War One starts much earlier that irl and includes many naval conflicts. The Atlantic Ocean is all fucked up. But sooner or later some group of these countries gets the upper hand on the other group and they are "occupied".
The natives in all this mess are effed up. And the new wars that start are all civil wars. Wars where the people rise up against their occupiers. Except it wont be in one country, it will be in all the little countries that are occupied...
Oh, I could go on and on and on. The entire world is just embroiled in unending conflict because everyone wants the resources of the New World, and those in the New World want independence. The Native is all but wiped out. The human misery is all but constant.
And don't forget that amidst all this there other factors as well, such as diseases that wipe out entire populations. Unforeseen events in which countries and continents that have nothing to do with this, such as South America, Africa and Asia, become mixed up in this, further stirring the pot.
All that war and misery, hundreds of years of unending conflict going on til this very day, all because you changed one thing. The history books could look MUCH worse than what we know now.
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Post by kls on Feb 6, 2019 22:03:21 GMT
Seems to me a decision for the people whose ancestors were enslaved to make rather than me.
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Post by audiosane on Feb 9, 2019 1:46:01 GMT
Why do people act as if the only slave trade in the world was Africa to North America, What about all the African women who was used as sex slaves in the middle east ? But to answer the question yes i would undo it. Probably because many or most of us who talk about it live in North America. Whenever slavery is brought up in the U.S.A., we almost always only focus on our country. However, I made sure to include South America, the Caribbean, etc. because I wanted to cover the Western Hemisphere.
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Post by audiosane on Feb 9, 2019 1:50:55 GMT
I've been thinking about this question, on and off, for the past few years. If you had the power to undo the Atlantic slave trade, would you? On one hand, you would be able to prevent all the horrors of black people dealing with slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow segregation, mass incarceration, racism and racial discrimination by white people, police brutality, etc. On the other hand, anywhere from 90% - 95% of all black people in the entire Western hemisphere (U.S.A., South America, etc.) never leave Africa over those 400+ years. Among other things, this massively alters American history, American life and American culture. Which do you choose? Yes, without hesitation. Why should American culture, American history or American life play any part in my decision-making process? Or, for that matter, any factors that might affect my own country...? Whether it does or doesn't play a role in your decision-making process is ultimately up to you. I was simply naming a few areas where things would radically change.
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Feb 9, 2019 1:52:31 GMT
Why do people act as if the only slave trade in the world was Africa to North America, What about all the African women who was used as sex slaves in the middle east ? But to answer the question yes i would undo it. Probably because many or most of us who talk about it live in North America. Whenever slavery is brought up in the U.S.A., we almost always only focus on our country. However, I made sure to include South America, the Caribbean, etc. because I wanted to cover the Western Hemisphere. You didn't include Africa
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Post by audiosane on Feb 9, 2019 1:54:59 GMT
I would go much further than undoing the Atlantic slave trade: I would sink every European ship attempting to cross the Atlantic! Leave the Americas alone. What was done to the peoples of the Americas is several orders of magnitude worse than what was done to African slaves.
That's an interesting point. When I think about how most Native Americans were wiped out by disease, war, slaughter, etc., I imagine what a hypothetical Africa might look like in the year 2500 with almost no black people in it and black people only having a tiny influence in the culture of the continent.
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