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Post by justanaveragejoe on Apr 1, 2019 20:46:53 GMT
To be fair here, having watched the scene in question again there is a good chance that Rogers knew the grenade was a fake. Firstly, he hitched a ride back after he got the flag down (displaying keen observational skills), and its possible there may have been dummy grenades in the back were he sat so he would have known about them. A stretch maybe. Secondly, during the actual scene, the grenade box that the Colonel pulls the frag from is clearly labelled "training grenades". They are in the back of an open truck close by in full dispay. Given Rogers keen observation skills and the fact he knew they were testing the soldiers all day, and the very unlikely event that the Colonel would throw a live grenade, you cant rule out Rogers knowing its fake. But again, none of the soldiers were paying attention to Colonel Phillips. And the scene isn't there to show that Steve Rogers knew or didn't knew it was a fake grenade, it was there to show Rogers being a good man and sacrifice himself to win the war, even to the guys who were such assholes to him.
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 1, 2019 20:49:09 GMT
To be fair here, having watched the scene in question again there is a good chance that Rogers knew the grenade was a fake. Firstly, he hitched a ride back after he got the flag down (displaying keen observational skills), and its possible there may have been dummy grenades in the back were he sat so he would have known about them. A stretch maybe. Secondly, during the actual scene, the grenade box that the Colonel pulls the frag from is clearly labelled "training grenades". They are in the back of an open truck close by in full dispay. Given Rogers keen observation skills and the fact he knew they were testing the soldiers all day, and the very unlikely event that the Colonel would throw a live grenade, you cant rule out Rogers knowing its fake. If the other guy was selected for the super serum and not Steve Rogers, Civil War would probably never have even happened.
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 1, 2019 20:50:44 GMT
To be fair here, having watched the scene in question again there is a good chance that Rogers knew the grenade was a fake. Firstly, he hitched a ride back after he got the flag down (displaying keen observational skills), and its possible there may have been dummy grenades in the back were he sat so he would have known about them. A stretch maybe. Secondly, during the actual scene, the grenade box that the Colonel pulls the frag from is clearly labelled "training grenades". They are in the back of an open truck close by in full dispay. Given Rogers keen observation skills and the fact he knew they were testing the soldiers all day, and the very unlikely event that the Colonel would throw a live grenade, you cant rule out Rogers knowing its fake. But again, none of the soldiers were paying attention to Colonel Phillips. And the scene isn't there to show that Steve Rogers knew or didn't knew it was a fake grenade, it was there to show Rogers being a good man and sacrifice himself to win the war, even to the guys who were such assholes to him. And Civil War showed that Cap was willing to risk thousands of lives to save that of a terrorist so your interpretation is dubious.
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Post by bud47 on Apr 1, 2019 21:38:00 GMT
To be fair here, having watched the scene in question again there is a good chance that Rogers knew the grenade was a fake. Firstly, he hitched a ride back after he got the flag down (displaying keen observational skills), and its possible there may have been dummy grenades in the back were he sat so he would have known about them. A stretch maybe. Secondly, during the actual scene, the grenade box that the Colonel pulls the frag from is clearly labelled "training grenades". They are in the back of an open truck close by in full dispay. Given Rogers keen observation skills and the fact he knew they were testing the soldiers all day, and the very unlikely event that the Colonel would throw a live grenade, you cant rule out Rogers knowing its fake. You're looking for things that aren't there. His reaction in that scene was purely gut instinct. It showed his natural tendency for bravery and selflessness and that's what it was meant to convey. To see it as anything else is looking at it with hate goggles, trying to invent things to nitpick and complain about. Trying to impress Peggy? Seriously? This is a guy who grew up being ignored and stepped on by women all of his life. He knew his limitations and had little to no experience in that area. Trying to impress a woman he knew he had no chance with was the last thing on his mind in that scene, especially when he couldn't even do a proper push-up in front of her next to guys who were much more physically impressive. The lengths some of you will go to, to tear these movies down is astounding. If you want to fault these movie for their weaknesses, at least come up with something that's actually in the film.
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Post by bud47 on Apr 1, 2019 21:48:36 GMT
whether he was a rank of Captain before or after he saw action it doesn't matter. It matters because he was handed the rank of Captain before he even served on any missions in the army. SO he literally did nothing to earn the rank of Captain and was handed the rank of Captain for doing nothing but taking a super-PED and dancing on stage with cheerleaders for Stan Lee. it did not mean he took a job away from an existing Captain. He stole the promotion away from another officer who was next in line for a promotion to Captain (after working their butts off for many years serving Uncle Sam and America, without help from any super-PED). He was Captaining a group specifically supporting him as a "Super Soldier". Wrong again. There was no group supporting him. He disobeyed orders and ran off on his own to rescue Bucky. Which further demonstrated that he was unqualified and unfit to be a Captain. Which other Captain was waiting in the wings for that job Another more experienced and more qualified officer who had worked his butt off for many years serving Uncle Sam and America, without help from any super-PED, was next in line for a promotion to Captain and had been waiting for that promotion, which Steve Rogers used the super-PED to steal from that officer. The rank and title of captain was honorary and for publicity purposes only. With the serum lost, there would be no other super soldiers. Therefore, his role was modified to be an entertainer/mascot for the war to sell war bonds, boost morale and support the American effort from a stage. He became a celebrity, a symbol, and the name stuck. That's all. It wasn't until later, after his first real mission and several other (as shown through the montage) that he actually earned the rank and title after proving himself on the battlefield. Get it?
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 1, 2019 21:50:03 GMT
To be fair here, having watched the scene in question again there is a good chance that Rogers knew the grenade was a fake. Firstly, he hitched a ride back after he got the flag down (displaying keen observational skills), and its possible there may have been dummy grenades in the back were he sat so he would have known about them. A stretch maybe. Secondly, during the actual scene, the grenade box that the Colonel pulls the frag from is clearly labelled "training grenades". They are in the back of an open truck close by in full dispay. Given Rogers keen observation skills and the fact he knew they were testing the soldiers all day, and the very unlikely event that the Colonel would throw a live grenade, you cant rule out Rogers knowing its fake. Exactly! That's what I've been trying to explain to MCU fans even back in the days when IMDB still had message boards! Rogers was observant enough to see that the flagpole could be lowered so he was probably observant enough to see the grenade box labeled "training grenades" in the back of the truck.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 1, 2019 21:59:36 GMT
But again, none of the soldiers were paying attention to Colonel Phillips. That's what I've been telling you! The other trainees weren't observant or paying attention. That's why they didn't know the grenade was fake. Rogers (who was observant enough to see that the flagpole could be lowered) was also observant enough and paying attention to see the box labeled "training grenades" and see the Colonel take the grenade from the back of the truck and toss it. That's how Rogers knew the grenade was fake.the scene isn't there to show that Steve Rogers knew or didn't knew it was a fake grenade But that's what the scene does show. Rogers is observant enough to see that the flagpole could be lowered. The box is labeled "training grenades". So the scene shows that Rogers is also observant enough to see the Colonel take the grenade from the back of the truck and toss it. Basically, it's an inconsistency in the writing of the movie. The director wants audience to think that Rogers has superior intelligence and observation skills than the other trainees by showing Rogers lowering the flagpole when none of the other trainees were observant enough to see that the flagpole could be lowered. Then a few minutes later, the director wants the audience to think that Rogers wasn't observant enough to see the Colonel take grenade from the back of the truck where the box labeled "training grenades" is and Rogers wasn't intelligent enough to think that the Colonel was tossing a fake grenade at his own trainees?it was there to show Rogers being a good man and sacrifice himself Rogers knew the grenade was fake so how is knowingly jumping on a fake grenade a sacrifice?
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 1, 2019 22:02:58 GMT
But again, none of the soldiers were paying attention to Colonel Phillips. And the scene isn't there to show that Steve Rogers knew or didn't knew it was a fake grenade, it was there to show Rogers being a good man and sacrifice himself to win the war, even to the guys who were such assholes to him. And Civil War showed that Cap was willing to risk thousands of lives to save that of a terrorist so your interpretation is dubious. Yep, it's another inconsistency in MCU movies. Kevin Feige wants the audience to think that Rogers is a great hero who cares about saving innocent lives. But no hero would ever risk thousands of innocent lives to aid and abet a double-murderer to flee from the law.
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Post by taylorfirst1 on Apr 1, 2019 22:06:37 GMT
To be fair here, having watched the scene in question again there is a good chance that Rogers knew the grenade was a fake. Firstly, he hitched a ride back after he got the flag down (displaying keen observational skills), and its possible there may have been dummy grenades in the back were he sat so he would have known about them. A stretch maybe. Secondly, during the actual scene, the grenade box that the Colonel pulls the frag from is clearly labelled "training grenades". They are in the back of an open truck close by in full dispay. Given Rogers keen observation skills and the fact he knew they were testing the soldiers all day, and the very unlikely event that the Colonel would throw a live grenade, you cant rule out Rogers knowing its fake. You're looking for things that aren't there. His reaction in that scene was purely gut instinct. It showed his natural tendency for bravery and selflessness and that's what it was meant to convey. To see it as anything else is looking at it with hate goggles, trying to invent things to nitpick and complain about. Trying to impress Peggy? Seriously? This is a guy who grew up being ignored and stepped on by women all of his life. He knew his limitations and had little to no experience in that area. Trying to impress a woman he knew he had no chance with was the last thing on his mind in that scene, especially when he couldn't even do a proper push-up in front of her next to guys who were much more physically impressive. The lengths some of you will go to, to tear these movies down is astounding. If you want to fault these movie for their weaknesses, at least come up with something that's actually in the film.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 1, 2019 22:09:44 GMT
You're looking for things that aren't there. His reaction in that scene was purely gut instinct. It showed his natural tendency for bravery and selflessness and that's what it was meant to convey. To see it as anything else is looking at it with hate goggles, trying to invent things to nitpick and complain about. The lengths some of you will go to, to tear these movies down is astounding. If you want to fault these movie for their weaknesses, at least come up with something that's actually in the film. You're making weak excuses to defend the bad writing in the movie. The lengths some of you will go to defend such awful writing is astounding. It's an inconsistency in the writing of the movie. The director wants audience to think that Rogers has superior intelligence and observation skills than the other trainees by showing Rogers lowering the flagpole when none of the other trainees were observant enough to see that the flagpole could be lowered. Then a few minutes later, the director wants the audience to think that Rogers wasn't observant enough to see the Colonel take grenade from the back of the truck where the box labeled "training grenades" is and Rogers wasn't intelligent enough to think that the Colonel was tossing a fake grenade at his own trainees? And it IS in the movie. Rogers was observant enough to see that the flagpole could be lowered. Rogers hitches a ride in the back of the truck where a box is labeled "training grenades". The Colonel takes a fake grenade from the back of that same truck and tosses it at his own trainees. That's all in the movie. And it clearly shows that Rogers knew the grenade was a fake.
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Post by sostie on Apr 1, 2019 22:10:56 GMT
it did not mean he took a job away from an existing Captain. He stole the promotion away from another officer who was next in line for a promotion to Captain (after working their butts off for many years serving Uncle Sam and America, without help from any super-PED). He stole it did he. Who did he take it from? If it is given it isn't stolen. You seemed to have forgotten the whole film after the rescue. OK so you are deliberately being dumb as fuck now. If Rogers had not taken the serum he would not have a unit. That unit did not and would not exist without Rogers. There was no alternative captain. It wasn't a unit given to Rogers to lead. It was a unit formed by Rogers to support him. It was a role ONLY Rogers could fill.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 1, 2019 22:14:36 GMT
It matters because he was handed the rank of Captain before he even served on any missions in the army. SO he literally did nothing to earn the rank of Captain and was handed the rank of Captain for doing nothing but taking a super-PED and dancing on stage with cheerleaders for Stan Lee. He stole the promotion away from another officer who was next in line for a promotion to Captain (after working their butts off for many years serving Uncle Sam and America, without help from any super-PED). Wrong again. There was no group supporting him. He disobeyed orders and ran off on his own to rescue Bucky. Which further demonstrated that he was unqualified and unfit to be a Captain. Another more experienced and more qualified officer who had worked his butt off for many years serving Uncle Sam and America, without help from any super-PED, was next in line for a promotion to Captain and had been waiting for that promotion, which Steve Rogers used the super-PED to steal from that officer. The rank and title of captain was honorary and for publicity purposes only. With the serum lost, there would be no other super soldiers. Therefore, his role was modified to be an entertainer/mascot for the war to sell war bonds, boost morale and support the American effort from a stage. He became a celebrity, a symbol, and the name stuck. That's all. It wasn't until later, after his first real mission and several other (as shown through the montage) that he actually earned the rank and title after proving himself on the battlefield. Get it? No, he was already given the rank and title before he went on any missions. We know that for a fact because after Rogers disobeyed orders and went to rescue Bucky, he was gone for several days and the Colonel had a letter typed to the Senator which said "I regret to inform you that Captain Steve Rogers is missing and presumed dead …" It was an official letter to a Senator so the Colonel would only refer to Rogers as "Captain Steve Rogers" if that was his rank and title. So Rogers was already handed the rank and title of Captain BEFORE he went on any missions. Rogers literally did NOTHING to earn the rank and title of Captain except take a super-PED and dance with cheerleaders on stage for Stan Lee. Like I said before, Rogers used the super-PED to steal the Captain position from another more experienced and more qualified officer who had worked his butt off for many years serving Uncle Sam and America, without the help of any super-PED, to put himself next in line for a promotion to Captain.
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Post by sostie on Apr 1, 2019 22:16:17 GMT
May I suggest we just ignore the twat.
God we spend too much time arguing with this child. And no doubt will continue.
But really why should we bother until he can provide answers to:
How a sail boat made it from the Agean to the London at night, during war time in one night?
How The Sahara was a desert during the time of the Roman Empire?
Why they stole Namor's origin story for Aquaman?
Maybe we should just copy and paste these to every reply to him...see how he likes the continued copy & paste repetition.
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 1, 2019 22:18:31 GMT
He stole the promotion away from another officer who was next in line for a promotion to Captain (after working their butts off for many years serving Uncle Sam and America, without help from any super-PED). He stole it did he. Who did he take it from? If it is given it isn't stolen. You seemed to have forgotten the whole film after the rescue. OK so you are deliberately being dumb as fuck now. If Rogers had not taken the serum he would not have a unit. That unit did not and would not exist without Rogers. There was no alternative captain. It wasn't a unit given to Rogers to lead. It was a unit formed by Rogers to support him. It was a role ONLY Rogers could fill. That unit was a vanity project. The diversity of that unit could only be achieved by design, so it wasn’t a meritocracy, especially when you shoehorn your best friend in there.
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Post by bud47 on Apr 1, 2019 22:22:41 GMT
To be fair here, having watched the scene in question again there is a good chance that Rogers knew the grenade was a fake. Firstly, he hitched a ride back after he got the flag down (displaying keen observational skills), and its possible there may have been dummy grenades in the back were he sat so he would have known about them. A stretch maybe. Secondly, during the actual scene, the grenade box that the Colonel pulls the frag from is clearly labelled "training grenades". They are in the back of an open truck close by in full dispay. Given Rogers keen observation skills and the fact he knew they were testing the soldiers all day, and the very unlikely event that the Colonel would throw a live grenade, you cant rule out Rogers knowing its fake. Exactly! That's what I've been trying to explain to MCU fans even back in the days when IMDB still had message boards! Rogers was observant enough to see that the flagpole could be lowered so he was probably observant enough to see the grenade box labeled "training grenades" in the back of the truck. These aren't overly complicated films and that's now how the scene was conveyed. I've watched the movie several times and never noticed the "Training Grenades" label on the box. The only way to catch that is to freeze the film and nitpick every little detail, then assume things like "there is a good chance Rogers knew the grenade was fake" based on how determined you are to find negativity in these films. Why would he ask the Colonel "Is this a test?"? So he could appear more heroic and impress the high ranking attractive female that he knows he has no chance in hell with? Did you not watch the beginning of the film? He pretty much gave up on trying to ever score with a chick and was just focused on joining the army.
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Post by Power Ranger on Apr 1, 2019 22:24:03 GMT
May I suggest we just ignore the twat. God we spend too much time arguing with this child. And no doubt will continue. But really why should we bother until he can provide answers to: How a sail boat made it from the Agean to the London at night, during war time in one night?
How The Sahara was a desert during the time of the Roman Empire?
Why they stole Namor's origin story for Aquaman?Maybe we should just copy and paste these to every reply to him...see how he likes the continued copy & paste repetition. You reply to him because you want to convince yourself that he’s wrong, because it’s difficult to acknowledge that your heroes are severely flawed. You’re in denial.
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Post by scabab on Apr 1, 2019 22:27:19 GMT
You're making weak excuses to defend the bad writing in the movie. The lengths some of you will go to defend such awful writing is astounding. That's pretty ironic considering you practically invented your own scenario for Black Panther where Eric Killmonger could have had a close friend in the military, who after telling him about Wakanda, then killed him, stole his Royal Ring, had the same matching tattoo on the inside of his lip and enacted out a plan where he pretended to be Killmonger all so he could go to a place that he'd never been to in order to become King. You went to such astounding lengths just to try and find a way to create a plot hole.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 1, 2019 22:32:50 GMT
Exactly! That's what I've been trying to explain to MCU fans even back in the days when IMDB still had message boards! Rogers was observant enough to see that the flagpole could be lowered so he was probably observant enough to see the grenade box labeled "training grenades" in the back of the truck. These aren't overly complicated films and that's now how the scene was conveyed. I've watched the movie several times and never noticed the "Training Grenades" label on the box. And the first time you watched those trainees try to climb up the flagpole to get the flag, did you notice that the flagpole could be lowered by removing the lever at the bottom?
You may not have noticed the box labeled "Training Grenades", but the director who wants the audience to think that Steve Rogers was the only trainee in 17 years who was observant enough to notice that the flagpole could be lowered wants the audience to think that just a few minutes later Steve Rogers wasn't observant enough to notice the box labeled "Training Grenades" and wasn't observant enough to see the Colonel take the grenade from the box labeled "Training Grenades" and toss it at his own trainees? That's just bad, inconsistent, contrived writing!
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Post by bud47 on Apr 1, 2019 22:36:23 GMT
The rank and title of captain was honorary and for publicity purposes only. With the serum lost, there would be no other super soldiers. Therefore, his role was modified to be an entertainer/mascot for the war to sell war bonds, boost morale and support the American effort from a stage. He became a celebrity, a symbol, and the name stuck. That's all. It wasn't until later, after his first real mission and several other (as shown through the montage) that he actually earned the rank and title after proving himself on the battlefield. Get it? No, he was already given the rank and title before he went on any missions. We know that for a fact because after Rogers disobeyed orders and went to rescue Bucky, he was gone for several days and the Colonel had a letter typed to the Senator which said "I regret to inform you that Captain Steve Rogers is missing and presumed dead …" It was an official letter to a Senator so the Colonel would only refer to Rogers as "Captain Steve Rogers" if that was his rank and title. So Rogers was already handed the rank and title of Captain BEFORE he went on any missions. Rogers literally did NOTHING to earn the rank and title of Captain except take a super-PED and dance with cheerleaders on stage for Stan Lee. Like I said before, Rogers used the super-PED to steal the Captain position from another more experienced and more qualified officer who had worked his butt off for many years serving Uncle Sam and America, without the help of any super-PED, to put himself next in line for a promotion to Captain. This is a fictitious army with fictitious rules in a comic book film about a superhero. No one is thinking about the imagined next-in-line soldier that got cheated out of a captain rank except you. Everyone else is focused on what's happening on screen and being entertained. What kind of screwed up mindset do you have to be in to even come up with these nitpicky scenarios? It's called suspension of disbelief. You do it all the time with DC films. You have to shut off both sides of your brain to get through Aquaman.
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Post by DC-Fan on Apr 1, 2019 22:40:28 GMT
You're making weak excuses to defend the bad writing in the movie. The lengths some of you will go to defend such awful writing is astounding. That's pretty ironic considering you practically invented your own scenario for Black Panther where Eric Killmonger could have had a close friend in the military, who after telling him about Wakanda, then killed him, stole his Royal Ring, had the same matching tattoo on the inside of his lip and enacted out a plan where he pretended to be Killmonger all so he could go to a place that he'd never been to in order to become King. You went to such astounding lengths just to try and find a way to create a plot hole. I didn't go to astounding length. The excuse was put forth that no DNA test was needed because a fake Killmonger wouldn't have known so much about Wakanda. I simply put forth a logical and reasonable scenario where it would be very possible for an imposter to know the information that Killmonger knew about Wakanda so T'Challa can't be assumed that was the real Killmonger without a DNA test to prove it. And given that Wakanda is supposedly a scientifically advanced society, why the hell wouldn't they ask for a scientific proof of identity like a DNA test? Because it was just bad, contrived writing. That's 1 of the reasons why I give low ratings to MCU movies. Because the writing is bad and contrived.
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