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Post by faustus5 on Apr 3, 2019 12:22:52 GMT
Perhaps Jesus was perceived as a future threat as his movement was growing. Once again, crucifixion for anything less than crimes against state authority was unlikely. linkAlso, doesn't the bible describe his followers as being armed with swords and doesn't one of them even attack or threaten to attack a Roman soldier at some point? Why would you send a legion of soldiers after completely peaceful branch of alt-Jews if they weren't considered an armed and dangerous threat and part of the Jewish resistance? It seems more likely to me that the history had to be massaged at later points to downplay the revolutionary nature of the Jesus movement in order to make Christianity more acceptable to Roman authorities.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 3, 2019 13:29:01 GMT
I'm looking at it pretty secularly since the Bible paints Jesus' influence as huge given that his narrative is targeted by default to a specific group - his apostles and disciples. His message is all-encompassing despite it being heavily localised. The Romans were pretty cruel and they killed people across any number of methods and crucifixion was used against more than seditionists. However, it makes sense Jesus was killed for sedition which I'm not sure the Bible contradicts anyway. Anyone that challenges Rome's right to rule would likely get the same treatment That is different from killing him because he was actually a threat to their power. Perhaps Jesus was perceived as a future threat as his movement was growing. Once again, crucifixion for anything less than crimes against state authority was unlikely. link cruxifiction was not mandated solely for sedition but let’s pretend it was. I’m still not arguing that Jesus wasn’t convicted of sedition only that just because that was the basis, it didn’t mean his sedition was a significant threat.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 3, 2019 13:40:30 GMT
Perhaps Jesus was perceived as a future threat as his movement was growing. Once again, crucifixion for anything less than crimes against state authority was unlikely. linkAlso, doesn't the bible describe his followers as being armed with swords and doesn't one of them even attack or threaten to attack a Roman soldier at some point? Why would you send a legion of soldiers after completely peaceful branch of alt-Jews if they weren't considered an armed and dangerous threat and part of the Jewish resistance? It seems more likely to me that the history had to be massaged at later points to downplay the revolutionary nature of the Jesus movement in order to make Christianity more acceptable to Roman authorities. It wasn’t a Roman. It was a servant of the high priest and there was an entire mob. A sword would not be unusual (His disciples had two among them) and Peter, routinely being the rash one, struck first and was chastised for it. Romans would not have been too terribly concerned about a squabble between Jews when Jesus and his followers didn’t even start it which is one of the reasons Pilate told them to handle it under their laws the first time.
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Post by geode on Apr 3, 2019 18:24:23 GMT
Perhaps Jesus was perceived as a future threat as his movement was growing. Once again, crucifixion for anything less than crimes against state authority was unlikely. linkcruxifiction was not mandated solely for sedition but let’s pretend it was. I’m still not arguing that Jesus wasn’t convicted of sedition only that just because that was the basis, it didn’t mean his sedition was a significant threat. You have not made a case for significant use of crucifixion outside of threats to the state. My premise is that the crucifixion by itself is an indication that Jesus was considered a threat to Roman rule, a leaderof an incipient revolution. How you view his threat is not what counts, it is how the Romans at that time viewed it. Look how significant the Christian movement became just a few decades after the crucifixion.
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Post by goz on Apr 3, 2019 21:38:53 GMT
Some Christians claim that the Jews killed Jesus. Lol. How is it that one can think of making such a backward statement that creates nothing but animosity. It is not people of any religion who do a crime. It is simply the people (without any tag) who do crimes. One thing is that the story of Jesus isn't even a reality for all of us and the more important thing is that whoever killed this supposed character Jesus did so on their own will. How is it ethical to permanently blame people of one community for the death of Jesus. And I wonder when I hear and read about horrible tales of antisemitism throughout the history. Hate begets hate. People civilize yourself a bit and bring yourself to modern standards. Honestly, at some point you have to realize to SHUT THE FUCK UP. All my regards, the humph Why? This is a discussion board and Aj_June is just giving his opinion in a non-partisan manner. I think you owe him an apology. By all means debate the points he raises butt we all here respect people's right to express their opinions here and I, for one find his view on this topic eminently reasonable.
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Apr 3, 2019 21:41:21 GMT
Honestly, at some point you have to realize to SHUT THE FUCK UP. All my regards, the humph Why? This is a discussion board and Aj_June is just giving his opinion in a non-partisan manner. I think you owe him an apology. By all means debate the points he raises butt we all here respect people's right to express their opinions here and I, for one find his view on this topic eminently reasonable. Apologize. That's funny.
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Post by goz on Apr 3, 2019 21:42:47 GMT
Not me. I didn't. I didn't even know he existed because I didn't exist and now I don't even know if he ever existed. As an agnostic atheist I bear absolutely no responsibility for this postulated event. You are visiting a village in Cambodia and some villagers seriously tell you their folk-story and make you involved in their story as part of the people who have done wrong against their God even if you had nothing to do with that story. You would of course laugh behind their backs even if you are not disrespectful in their face. Probably the Christians will do the same. But still many right wing Christians present Christian myth to everyone as if it's not a story but a fact. It feels hilarious for us to be made sinners because they chose to believe in some fantasy. To me this is the ultimate irony, hypocrisy and danger in religion in general and Christianity in particular, in this case.
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Post by goz on Apr 3, 2019 21:44:51 GMT
Why? This is a discussion board and Aj_June is just giving his opinion in a non-partisan manner. I think you owe him an apology. By all means debate the points he raises butt we all here respect people's right to express their opinions here and I, for one find his view on this topic eminently reasonable. Apologize. That's funny. What gives you the right to tell him to SHUT THE FUCK UP on a public message board, and why would that be funny?
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Apr 3, 2019 21:46:23 GMT
What gives you the right to tell him to SHUT THE FUCK UP on a public message board, and why would that be funny? My insomnia
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Post by goz on Apr 3, 2019 21:47:19 GMT
As I said the actions of the Jewish council do not reflect on the rest of Jewry, however the narrative of the story requires the killers of Jesus be Jews, separating them out from their Jewishness defeats the purpose of the story. You haven't explained why. To me, anyone could have killed Jesus and while it would make sense that someone among the Jews would do it considering he preached almost exclusively to them and they tried a couple of times before, the opportunity presented itself for Pilate to do so at a particular group's urging. The narrative actually is that Jews were supposed to look for the Messiah and follow him and his example and some of them worked against that direction to the point of having him killed. Now if we were discussing Jews largely rejecting Jesus as the Messiah, then maybe there is a point since they have continued to do so down to this day, but that doesn't make then accomplices to his death which is basically shared by 3 people/groups - the Sanhedrin, the Jewish King Herod, & Pontius Pilate. ...unless it was your God, pulling the strings to fulfil his agenda!
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Post by Aj_June on Apr 3, 2019 21:49:38 GMT
What gives you the right to tell him to SHUT THE FUCK UP on a public message board, and why would that be funny? Thank you, but I wouldn't bother with him. He is occasionally all right to talk too but there may be some mood disorder problem. I chose such to ignore non-topic related posts. Otherwise I am fine with discussing with any poster.
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Post by goz on Apr 3, 2019 21:51:56 GMT
What gives you the right to tell him to SHUT THE FUCK UP on a public message board, and why would that be funny? My insomnia Take a chill pill and don't take it out on others...just a suggestion! He turned the other cheek and he is not even a Christian!
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Apr 3, 2019 21:53:54 GMT
Take a chill pill and don't take it out on others...just a suggestion! He turned the other cheek and he is not even a Christian! Get out of my face, reverend.
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Post by goz on Apr 3, 2019 21:57:42 GMT
Take a chill pill and don't take it out on others...just a suggestion! He turned the other cheek and he is not even a Christian! Get out of my face, reverend. I am an agnostic atheist with better manners than you, sinnerman!
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Post by them1ghtyhumph on Apr 3, 2019 22:00:30 GMT
Get out of my face, reverend. I am an agnostic atheist with better manners than you, sinnerman! HI-KEE-BA!
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Post by goz on Apr 3, 2019 22:10:13 GMT
I am an agnostic atheist with better manners than you, sinnerman! HI-KEE-BA! Yes, you fell on your arse!
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Post by heeeeey on Apr 3, 2019 22:23:05 GMT
That's why I don't belong to any organized religion. Too much of the Bible is misinterpreted and believe to be fact.
If you believe Jesus Christ could walk on water and had the power to perform miracles, how can you believe that anyone could kill Him?
His words regarding life: "No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received from My Father.”
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Post by goz on Apr 3, 2019 22:51:10 GMT
That's why I don't belong to any organized religion. Too much of the Bible is misinterpreted and believe to be fact. If you believe Jesus Christ could walk on water and had the power to perform miracles, how can you believe that anyone could kill Him? His words regarding life: " No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received from My Father.” I actually think that it was your God who had 'a cunning plan'!
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Post by geode on Apr 4, 2019 9:43:48 GMT
That's why I don't belong to any organized religion. Too much of the Bible is misinterpreted and believe to be fact. If you believe Jesus Christ could walk on water and had the power to perform miracles, how can you believe that anyone could kill Him? His words regarding life: " No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received from My Father.” A valid point.
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Post by rizdek on Apr 4, 2019 12:17:58 GMT
Your point is right, of course, but the idea that the Jews could be blamed for Jesus' death comes directly from the New Testament. Whether one wants to believe that or not is up to the individual. But, and I could well believe you already know this, Matthew has the Jews who were present at the trial of Jesus saying something to the effect of letting his blood be on them and on their children which I take to mean their descendants. I'm sure no one ever really said that, but there it is in God's holy word, for Christians to read and believe if they want to.
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