|
Post by politicidal on Apr 4, 2019 12:47:01 GMT
Humans are stupid about certain things. It’s funny how it differs. People in Asia think animal parts make their boners bigger. Africans think albinos are witches. Europeans think fascism has redeeming merit. Americans well...that’s a category itself.
|
|
|
Post by rizdek on Apr 4, 2019 13:40:39 GMT
Humans are stupid about certain things. It’s funny how it differs. People in Asia think animal parts make their boners bigger. Africans think albinos are witches. Europeans think fascism has redeeming merit. Americans well...that’s a category itself. "Americans think Trump is God's anointed one" That's what you mean to say, right?
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on Apr 4, 2019 14:21:23 GMT
Your point is right, of course, but the idea that the Jews could be blamed for Jesus' death comes directly from the New Testament. Whether one wants to believe that or not is up to the individual. But, and I could well believe you already know this, Matthew has the Jews who were present at the trial of Jesus saying something to the effect of letting his blood be on them and on their children which I take to mean their descendants. I'm sure no one ever really said that, but there it is in God's holy word, for Christians to read and believe if they want to.
Thats still only discussing a select number of Jews seeking his death. Pilate was not listening to all Jews he was listening to their leadership. On top of that, Matthew specifically mentions these guys were inciting the crowd which likely meant they were saying the same lies to them as to Pilate.
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Apr 4, 2019 19:08:52 GMT
But hold on, the narrative IS that the Jews killed him, they demanded his death for upsetting their handle on control. They may have just been people and their actions do not reflect on other Jews, but the elders wanted Jesus dead BECAUSE they were Jews. You cannot separate the two in this instance. Of course the storyline has been developed over the years to incite hatred. That's not how you think about other communities. I am surprised by your post more than anything else. And just because a narrative has been developed it doesn't mean it has to continue. Many things change about religions, this has also got to change. But the narrative was not developed over the years. The Narrative HAS to be the Jewish council seeking Jesus' death, anything else makes no sense. The issue is people using that to vilify all Jews. But hte fact remains that the people who called for Jesus' death were Jews and the reason they were calling for his death is directly related to the fact that they are Jews.
|
|
|
Post by gadreel on Apr 4, 2019 19:14:50 GMT
As I said the actions of the Jewish council do not reflect on the rest of Jewry, however the narrative of the story requires the killers of Jesus be Jews, separating them out from their Jewishness defeats the purpose of the story. You haven't explained why. To me, anyone could have killed Jesus and while it would make sense that someone among the Jews would do it considering he preached almost exclusively to them and they tried a couple of times before, the opportunity presented itself for Pilate to do so at a particular group's urging. The narrative actually is that Jews were supposed to look for the Messiah and follow him and his example and some of them worked against that direction to the point of having him killed. Now if we were discussing Jews largely rejecting Jesus as the Messiah, then maybe there is a point since they have continued to do so down to this day, but that doesn't make then accomplices to his death which is basically shared by 3 people/groups - the Sanhedrin, the Jewish King Herod, & Pontius Pilate. The Sanhedrin? You mean the council of elder Jews? The story is that Jesus upsets the council of the elder Jews, the Sanhedrin, because he upsets their power balance and threatens their control. The story only works if they are Jews, the fact that they are Jews is integral to the story. The Jews in question are not only accomplices to hie death, they are the instigators of it. You also lay the blame at the foot of Herod. Of the three people/groups you mentioned, two of them are Jewish, at the end of the day, as you have agreed, Jews killed Jesus. Note that the word 'all' is not included in that sentence. and just to be clear this is not a reason to be anti-semetic, and I am not, the fact that SOME Jews are responsible for Jesus' death does not reflect on ALL Jews.
|
|
|
Post by Aj_June on May 15, 2019 20:25:44 GMT
FilmFlaneurGood to see you online. I do like you to share your thoughts on my OP. Do you believe it is in any way descent to make this "Jews killed our Lord" thing a normal belief that quite a few Christians hold on to?
|
|
|
Post by rizdek on May 15, 2019 22:26:43 GMT
Some Christians claim that the Jews killed Jesus. Lol. How is it that one can think of making such a backward statement that creates nothing but animosity. It is not people of any religion who do a crime. It is simply the people (without any tag) who do crimes. One thing is that the story of Jesus isn't even a reality for all of us and the more important thing is that whoever killed this supposed character Jesus did so on their own will. How is it ethical to permanently blame people of one community for the death of Jesus. And I wonder when I hear and read about horrible tales of antisemitism throughout the history. Hate begets hate. People civilize yourself a bit and bring yourself to modern standards. In the story, they weren't committing a crime. In the story when Pilate said he found no fault with this man, the Jews were supposed to have said crucify him or some such. When Pilate couldn't get them to change their mind, he said he didn't want his (Jesus') blood on his hands and the Jews were supposed to have said let his blood be on us and our children.
Of course it's not true, but that has led Christians down through the ages in various ways to hold the Jews responsible for Jesus' death. They totally forget that in the story, if Jesus hadn't been crucified so he could come back to life, they couldn't be saved.
|
|
|
Post by Aj_June on May 15, 2019 22:30:49 GMT
Some Christians claim that the Jews killed Jesus. Lol. How is it that one can think of making such a backward statement that creates nothing but animosity. It is not people of any religion who do a crime. It is simply the people (without any tag) who do crimes. One thing is that the story of Jesus isn't even a reality for all of us and the more important thing is that whoever killed this supposed character Jesus did so on their own will. How is it ethical to permanently blame people of one community for the death of Jesus. And I wonder when I hear and read about horrible tales of antisemitism throughout the history. Hate begets hate. People civilize yourself a bit and bring yourself to modern standards. In the story, they weren't committing a crime. In the story when Pilate said he found no fault with this man, the Jews were supposed to have said crucify him or some such. When Pilate couldn't get them to change their mind, he said he didn't want his (Jesus') blood on his hands and the Jews were supposed to have said let his blood be on us and our children.
Of course it's not true, but that has led Christians down through the ages in various ways to hold the Jews responsible for Jesus' death. They totally forget that in the story, if Jesus hadn't been crucified so he could come back to life, they couldn't be saved.
Interestingly the previous Pope did say that the Jews shouldn't be held responsible for the death of Jesus.
|
|
|
Post by rizdek on May 15, 2019 22:38:12 GMT
In the story, they weren't committing a crime. In the story when Pilate said he found no fault with this man, the Jews were supposed to have said crucify him or some such. When Pilate couldn't get them to change their mind, he said he didn't want his (Jesus') blood on his hands and the Jews were supposed to have said let his blood be on us and our children.
Of course it's not true, but that has led Christians down through the ages in various ways to hold the Jews responsible for Jesus' death. They totally forget that in the story, if Jesus hadn't been crucified so he could come back to life, they couldn't be saved.
Interestingly the previous Pope did say that the Jews shouldn't be held responsible for the death of Jesus.
That proves you just can't trust a Pope. They claimed they wanted to be held responsible right there in the Bible.
|
|
|
Post by FilmFlaneur on May 23, 2019 19:35:26 GMT
FilmFlaneur Good to see you online. I do like you to share your thoughts on my OP. Do you believe it is in any way descent to make this "Jews killed our Lord" thing a normal belief that quite a few Christians hold on to? Personally its not something I would spend much time on. While the view might encapsulate some aspect of historical truth it is more often expressed as racial slander. And, as I just noted, it is perfectly reasonable to point out the irony of JC's death being necessary to supposedly fulfil God's wider plan.
|
|
|
Post by Zos on May 25, 2019 12:51:58 GMT
But if he had to die to fulfil the prophesy and kick start the religion then the Jews who killed him would have been fulfilling the will of God. I do think it important to remember it's all just a fable though that may or may not have a shred of historical accuracy.
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 25, 2019 12:57:10 GMT
Some Christians claim that the Jews killed Jesus. Lol. How is it that one can think of making such a backward statement that creates nothing but animosity. It is not people of any religion who do a crime. It is simply the people (without any tag) who do crimes. One thing is that the story of Jesus isn't even a reality for all of us and the more important thing is that whoever killed this supposed character Jesus did so on their own will. How is it ethical to permanently blame people of one community for the death of Jesus. And I wonder when I hear and read about horrible tales of antisemitism throughout the history. Hate begets hate. People civilize yourself a bit and bring yourself to modern standards. In the story, they weren't committing a crime. In the story when Pilate said he found no fault with this man, the Jews were supposed to have said crucify him or some such. When Pilate couldn't get them to change their mind, he said he didn't want his (Jesus') blood on his hands and the Jews were supposed to have said let his blood be on us and our children.
Of course it's not true, but that has led Christians down through the ages in various ways to hold the Jews responsible for Jesus' death. They totally forget that in the story, if Jesus hadn't been crucified so he could come back to life, they couldn't be saved.
I still don't see how this is relevant. Let's assume that Jesus 100% must absolutely die that day and in that way if for no other reason to fulfill prophecies about how he would die. Why would that change who the bad guy is? The point is the ridiculous notion that all Jews are responsible not that some were clearly responsible. It is perfectly acceptable and accurate to say some Jews wanted to see Jesus dead and Pilate played a role in it. It was his death sentence, his soldier, and his method of execution. IMO, it's perfectly OK to dislike both Pilate and the Jews who were responsible for his death
|
|
|
Post by CoolJGS☺ on May 25, 2019 13:15:33 GMT
You haven't explained why. To me, anyone could have killed Jesus and while it would make sense that someone among the Jews would do it considering he preached almost exclusively to them and they tried a couple of times before, the opportunity presented itself for Pilate to do so at a particular group's urging. The narrative actually is that Jews were supposed to look for the Messiah and follow him and his example and some of them worked against that direction to the point of having him killed. Now if we were discussing Jews largely rejecting Jesus as the Messiah, then maybe there is a point since they have continued to do so down to this day, but that doesn't make then accomplices to his death which is basically shared by 3 people/groups - the Sanhedrin, the Jewish King Herod, & Pontius Pilate. The Sanhedrin? You mean the council of elder Jews? The story is that Jesus upsets the council of the elder Jews, the Sanhedrin, because he upsets their power balance and threatens their control. The story only works if they are Jews, the fact that they are Jews is integral to the story. The Jews in question are not only accomplices to hie death, they are the instigators of it. You also lay the blame at the foot of Herod. Of the three people/groups you mentioned, two of them are Jewish, at the end of the day, as you have agreed, Jews killed Jesus. Note that the word 'all' is not included in that sentence. and just to be clear this is not a reason to be anti-semetic, and I am not, the fact that SOME Jews are responsible for Jesus' death does not reflect on ALL Jews. Prophecy would indicate his own people reject him. It would be a foregone conclusion. He's a Jew preaching to Jews He didn't upset the power of them since he had none. He did upset their influence which is different. Everything else I could say now has already been said in previous posts.
|
|