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Post by thisguy4000 on May 25, 2019 21:49:46 GMT
There’s been a lot of chatter regarding the Joker’s characterization in the upcoming film. More specifically, there’s been some rumors going around from people who claimed to have read the script that the Joker will essentially be portrayed as the 1980s equivalent of an “incel”. For those who don’t know what that is, here you go. I’m just going to go ahead and say that I’m not especially fond of that concept. For the record, though, my problems with that isn’t related to politics or anything like that. I actually have a much simpler reason for not being fond of that idea; I hate the idea of the Joker desiring a partner. I’ve always preferred to imagine the Joker as being asexual. That’s one of the many reasons why I despise Harley Quinn’s existence. I don’t like the idea of the Joker having sex or desiring a partner, and I especially hate the idea of that being large part of his motivation for being evil. Granted, the film is supposed to be a one-off, so that does give them some freedom to do whatever they want with the character. I wouldn’t even mind if that rumor about the Joker and Bruce being half-brothers turns out to be true, because, again, it’s a one-off, so they’re free to get weird. With that said, I still don’t know if I can get on board with the idea of the Joker being mad because he got rejected. Why does the Joker have to have love interests? |
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Post by politicidal on May 26, 2019 16:08:06 GMT
I don’t mind the idea of him being sexually active. But I don’t think he should be capable of romantic or other emotional attachments.
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gromel
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Post by gromel on May 27, 2019 8:26:42 GMT
DC movies in recent years have been subject to so many rumors that I just take everything as wrong unless confirmed.
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 28, 2019 13:46:16 GMT
Because there is no one, true version of the character. The Joker's been around for decades. Long before us and will be around long after us. We don't own it to say "He shouldn't do this." If we don't like it, we don't watch it.
I didn't like when The Joker got all Satanic and started trying to raise Neron. So I didn't pick up that issue.
Characters like Harley give writers new angles to explore with the Joker. If it weren't for changes like that, we'd still have the same clown who uses whoopie cushions in his crimes. Which does have its place in Joker history.
What matters most is what the character represents, which in the case of the Joker is his dichotomy and clashes with Batman. That is the essence of the character. So it'll be interesting to see how they pull it off without a Batman.
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Post by thisguy4000 on May 28, 2019 13:48:41 GMT
Because there is no one, true version of the character. The Joker's been around for decades. Long before us and will be around long after us. We don't own it to say "He shouldn't do this." If we don't like it, we don't watch it. I didn't like when The Joker got all Satanic and started trying to raise Neron. So I didn't pick up that issue. Characters like Harley give writers new angles to explore with the Joker. If it weren't for changes like that, we'd still have the same clown who uses whoopie cushions in his crimes. Which does have its place in Joker history. What “new angles” does Harley Quinn give for the Joker? Turning him into Ted Bundy?
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 28, 2019 13:53:45 GMT
Because there is no one, true version of the character. The Joker's been around for decades. Long before us and will be around long after us. We don't own it to say "He shouldn't do this." If we don't like it, we don't watch it. I didn't like when The Joker got all Satanic and started trying to raise Neron. So I didn't pick up that issue. Characters like Harley give writers new angles to explore with the Joker. If it weren't for changes like that, we'd still have the same clown who uses whoopie cushions in his crimes. Which does have its place in Joker history. What “new angles” does Harley Quinn give for the Joker? Turning him into Ted Bundy? Why not? Bundy was a psychotic killer. So is the Joker. Many fictional characters have been based on real life people. Many stories come from real life events. The Joker is no exception. It even adds some Charles Manson to the character as it shows how dangerously manipulative he can be, turning his doctor into his acolyte. Plus, Harley has also made a funny foil for the Joker. Some of the best moments from Batman the Animated Series involved the Joker and Harley's dynamics.
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Post by thisguy4000 on May 28, 2019 14:11:07 GMT
What “new angles” does Harley Quinn give for the Joker? Turning him into Ted Bundy? Why not? Bundy was a psychotic killer. So is the Joker. Many fictional characters have been based on real life people. Many stories come from real life events. The Joker is no exception. It even adds some Charles Manson to the character as it shows how dangerously manipulative he can be, turning his doctor into his acolyte. Plus, Harley has also made a funny foil for the Joker. Some of the best moments from Batman the Animated Series involved the Joker and Harley's dynamics. The Joker should be as far removed from real life killers as possible. The whole point of the Joker is that he’s unpredictable. Making him some charming manipulator is just stupid, especially since, unlike Ted Bundy, there’s nothing superficially charming about him. He’s a guy who permanently looks like a clown and makes no secret about the fact that he’s a psychopath. What about that strikes you as the kind of person who can manipulate women (psychiatrists no less) into falling in love with him? Also, you and I have radically different definitions on the word “funny”. Harley Quinn is one of the most obnoxious characters in all of fiction. Her voice and her manner of speaking are so irritating that it’s uncanny.
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 28, 2019 14:33:55 GMT
So why pigeon hole him into some celibate character? Saying he shouldn't be something literally is making him predictable. Because now we know what he won't do. And no, Joker should not be far removed from anything. Again, he is not an exception to anything. He's a fictional character to tell stories. There is no reason to limit him into something you think he shouldn't be.
The point of the Joker again is not his unpredictability. He started off very predictable. He committed crimes. Regular old crimes like robbery, the kind any other criminal would commit. The only difference was he used clown paraphernalia. His true purpose was the contrast with Batman. A colorful, vociferous villain for the dark, taciturn hero.
Well, no. Even Ledger's Joker didn't permanently look like a clown. He washed the make up off.
That's how cultists work. They're not all handsome good looking guys. It's manipulation of the other person's own insecurities and emotions that get them followers. Which is what Joker took advantage of. It adds another element to him. He can lead people to follow him through manipulation rather than fear or money as he has with others.
Disagree. As did the hundreds of thousands of fans she's made over the past almost three decades. Harley became one of the fastest rising characters in terms of popularity in comic book history. There's no argument against that.
I don't like Justin Bieber, but I won't pretend the guy isn't hugely popular and has made a ton of money.
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Post by thisguy4000 on May 28, 2019 14:54:09 GMT
So why pigeon hole him into some celibate character? Saying he shouldn't be something literally is making him predictable. Because now we know what he won't do. And no, Joker should not be far removed from anything. Again, he is not an exception to anything. He's a fictional character to tell stories. There is no reason to limit him into something you think he shouldn't be. The point of the Joker again is not his unpredictability. He started off very predictable. He committed crimes. Regular old crimes like robbery, the kind any other criminal would commit. The only difference was he used clown paraphernalia. His true purpose was the contrast with Batman. A colorful, vociferous villain for the dark, taciturn hero. What does giving the Joker sexual interests add to his character? Did that scene in the animated adaptation of The Killing Joke where it was implied that the Joker sleeps with prostitutes add anything to the film or his character? Making the Joker asexual adds to his unpredictability because most people in real life aren’t asexual. It makes his character stand out from other psychopaths, who often act on their sexual interests in the form of things like rape. To me, things like rape and domestic abuse are beneath the Joker. Yes, the Joker is an unrepentant psychopath, but he’s a different kind of psychopath compared to the others. Ledger’s Joker also had a Glasgow grin and an otherwise disheveled appearance. Heath Ledger may have been considered a handsome man, but his Joker was far from being the kind of person who women would find attractive. The thing is, Harley Quinn is established as being a psychiatrist. I’m not saying that it’s not possible for a shrink to be manipulated, but you would think that a professional psychiatrist would know better than to fall for a bunch of cliché sob stories from the most blatant psychopath in Gotham. Granted, the original Mad Love comic did establish that Harley Quinn is a bimbo who only got a PhD because she did the nasty with her college professors, but that’s its own kind of stupid. I’m fairly certain part of that is because people think she’s “hot” and have nostalgic memories of B:TAS.
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 28, 2019 15:09:00 GMT
Except it doesn't. Once you limit him, he becomes easier to predict. Knowing what he won't do makes it easier to focus on what he will do. That's process of elimination. A basic tenet of test-taking in school.
There is nothing beneath an unrepentant psychopath. If there is something Joker won't do, then he is no longer unpredictable.
Except there are millions of women who did find him attractive. The internet is full of websites devoted to his Joker. Just as Harley fell for him. It showed a different side to his character. The dangerous talker.
Disagree. Especially since her popularity started when the show was airing. You can't be nostalgic about something as it's happening. That'd be like saying Ledger was only popular in the Dark Knight because he's handsome and people are nostalgic for the Joker. It's ignoring everything else people enjoyed about the character.
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Post by thisguy4000 on May 28, 2019 15:59:29 GMT
I don’t see how not having the Joker be a rapist or a wife beater is limiting him. Those are the most predictable things a bad guy could do.
Pretty sure that if he was real, people wouldn’t find him attractive, and they certainly wouldn’t fall in love with him. Heath Ledger’s Joker was not made to look attractive. The movie even established that he doesn’t have any friends.
A lot of people also enjoy The Big Bang Theory. That doesn’t mean i can’t say that it’s unfunny.
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 28, 2019 16:12:57 GMT
I'm not saying he'll only be a rapist or wife beater. But when you remove options, you make things predictable.
Except there are women who've fallen in love with death row inmates. Not having friends doesn't mean women won't find him attractive.
Exactly. But what you can't do is tell people there's only one reason they like something.
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Post by thisguy4000 on May 28, 2019 16:29:50 GMT
Why do those two things have to be options? They add nothing to the Joker as a character. They’re just try hard attempts at being disturbing. Even Alan Moore has denied the interpretation that the Joker raped Barbara Gordon when he stripped her nude, but according to Bruce Timm and Brian Azarello, the Joker loves him some prostitutes and raping because...edginess, I guess?
Why would a trained psychiatrist fall for the most blatant psychopath in Gotham, based on a bunch of sob stories? It’s just ridiculous.
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 28, 2019 16:41:13 GMT
Why do those two things have to be options? They add nothing to the Joker as a character. They’re just try hard attempts at being disturbing. Even Alan Moore has denied the interpretation that the Joker raped Barbara Gordon when he stripped her nude, but according to Bruce Timm and Brian Azarello, the Joker loves him some prostitutes and raping because...edginess, I guess? To be truly unpredictable, everything has to be an option. In any case, I'm not saying he should do those things. But him doing the ha ha with Harley is not a betrayal of his character. Being asexual has never been a core element of the Joker. So according to Moore, the Joker commits sexual assault, but not rape.
Why would a failed comedian resort to exploding whoopie cushions? It's a story.
But Harley falling for the Joker is not out of the realm of reality. Doctors fall for their patients all the time. It happens. Intelligent professionals fall for the worst kind of humanity.
The Joker has been around for decades. There's no one version of him. Just like there's no one version of Batman.
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Post by thisguy4000 on May 28, 2019 16:50:46 GMT
Why do those two things have to be options? They add nothing to the Joker as a character. They’re just try hard attempts at being disturbing. Even Alan Moore has denied the interpretation that the Joker raped Barbara Gordon when he stripped her nude, but according to Bruce Timm and Brian Azarello, the Joker loves him some prostitutes and raping because...edginess, I guess? To be truly unpredictable, everything has to be an option. In any case, I'm not saying he should do those things. But him doing the ha ha with Harley is not a betrayal of his character. Being asexual has never been a core element of the Joker. So according to Moore, the Joker commits sexual assault, but not rape.
Him doing the ha ha with Harley Quinn is an incredibly pointless addition to his character. Why does every character in comic books have to be a pervert? Also, the Joker stripping Barbara nude wasn’t done because it turned him on. It was done so he could traumatize her father. We don’t know if the Joker is a failed comedian. We don’t know anything about his backstory in the comics. TKJ made a point to establish that the Joker doesn’t even know what his real backstory is. I’d argue that adds to the unpredictability of the character. The one constant regarding the Joker should be that he’s unpredictable and unlike any real life criminal. Him being the DC equivalent of Ted Bundy robs him of that.
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 28, 2019 17:00:22 GMT
Sex does not equal perversion. It's actually a very natural urge.
Stripping someone nude, regardless of intent, is sexual assault. Furthermore, many rapists have also stated what they didn't wasn't for sexual gratification but for power.
Except Batman the Animated Series did establish him as a failed comedian.
Except that's not true. For decades he was just another criminal. Albeit one with a clown fetish. Unpredictability was not one of his original core attributes. No more than The Riddler or The Penguin.
Saying he shouldn't do something makes him more predictable.
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Post by thisguy4000 on May 28, 2019 17:10:08 GMT
In the Joker’s case, manipulating someone into falling in love with him and then having sex with that person would qualify as perversion.
The Joker didn’t strip her nude for power. He did it because he wanted to traumatize her father.
Wasn’t he a regular mobster prior to becoming the Joker in that setting?
The Joker works best when he’s not just another criminal. In TDK, they made a point to establish that the Joker was unlike any other criminal Batman had faced.
The Joker shouldn’t be able to breathe fire or morph into an ice cream truck. By your argument, that makes him predictable.
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 28, 2019 18:09:48 GMT
But how does that equal "every character in comics" being a pervert?
Again, regardless of intent, it's sexual assault. The Joker committed sexual assault.
He was both.
No argument here. However, that's just one out of hundreds, if not thousands, of Joker stories. The point being he didn't start off anything other than a criminal with a clown gimmick.
Emperor Joker gave him the power to do that and so much more.
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Post by thisguy4000 on May 28, 2019 18:23:32 GMT
Characters in the DCAU are constantly making sexual innuendos. It’s annoying.
I don’t understand what point you’re making. All I’m saying is that the Joker should not be the kind of person who has sexual fantasies, and rapists do in fact have sexual fantasies, otherwise they wouldn’t rape people.
Batman and Superman both started off as violent vigilantes who had no problem using lethal force. Things change.
That story is an outlier. The Joker obviously can’t do stuff like that under normal conditions, nor should be be able to.
I don’t even know what we’re arguing about at this point. I just don’t think the Joker should have a love interest. Not every comic book character needs one, and I especially can’t stand when he has one who’s as obnoxious as Harley Quinn. Plus, while I’m not a feminist, Harley Quinn is just about the most sexist concept for a character imaginable. Even DC agrees with the notion that Harley Quinn is a blatantly offensive character, because ever since the New 52, they’ve made a big deal out of having her break away from the Joker and forming her own identity.
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Post by PreachCaleb on May 28, 2019 18:50:44 GMT
That doesn't equal pervert.
The point is the same as it's always been. Sexuality is not off limits to the Joker. Even Alan Moore portrayed him using sexuality as a weapon.
Exactly. No reason the Joker can't have a sexuality. That's what Harley was. A change.
But he has. Joker has been many things. Saying he should be one specific way flies in the face of decades of stories.
Harley's problems are not with how she impacts the Joker's character, but rather the fact people think their relationship is goals.
You don't think Joker should have a love interest. I don't mind that he does.
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