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Post by goz on Oct 19, 2019 3:13:11 GMT
OK, let me ask you a question. Why do you believe in a designer/god without knowing why? I see the natural world in all its glory of design and everything else and say 'Wow! Didn't natural forces do a great job, irrespective of why ( though I suspect the answer to that why question is 'because it always has) and you think it must be a designer. Why is that? I think I said several times in this thread I see design, and I could be proven wrong. Where in this whole thing did I say "must"? There's no "must" to this subject as far my observation about the nature of matter. I've said before I don't base my faith on this observation, I'm just making the observation and asking if we don't know "why", then "why not design"? because I see design here, and it could also be "why not science"?, but I see nothing in science attending this area yet. So we really don't know, but I'm going to make the observation and share it. If making the observation leads to offense, I apologize, I'm still going to make the observation. As to why do you believe in a designer/god without knowing why... This is going to get completely away from any observation about the nature of matter, because honestly, like I said, it's not where I base my faith. And this conversation is going to take a turn, and I feel lead to share, so I will. I believe because when I humble myself to not push my own will, but try to seek God's will through meditation and prayer, I am a much more fulfilled person than when I try live it out on my own. Life's not perfect. Often times it really stinks, but I know what makes me content and challenges me to help others when the "me" of the conversation would rather help myself. I'm not expecting anyone who hasn't experienced it to understand, and that's OK. It's not scientific for those who base everything on what they can sense and measure, I'm not pretending to tell them the way I base my faith is something they have to try if they don't want to. I just recommend to anyone who senses a God shaped hole in their being to see if God fits. I've been told before this is a delusion, and to that I say if it takes a life of delusion for me to feel the way I do when I'm placing my faith in God, to put others ahead of myself more, to visit others and to pray with them and see their lives change when they accept God's lead as well, then so be it. Others may find this type of life without that faith, and I say wonderful for them, but for me, that blind faith works just fine. Challenge it all you wish, It's been challenged before. You ask me why, I've just told you why, and it's why I'm going to continue to live like this until I'm gone. Tell me it's a delusion, humbug, bullshit, my genes, I'm going to say "that's nice". I know opening up like this can subject myself to ridicule, it's ok, It's all part of it, I'm not bothered by that ridicule. But if someone feels that as they continue on living via their own will, and it's not working out well, and they are open to God's will, I'm willing to talk to them about how I've learned to let go. That's my why. To be honest, I am disappointed in this reply. It boils down to your personal choice of 'faith' so it has zero to do with science or logic. That is your prerogative, however in having such faith you have just contradicted yourself by say 'there is no must about having a designer. Per se I don't see a problem with this, only the hypocrisy. If you base your faith on a designer, there MUST be a designer. What else can there be?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 3:23:50 GMT
I think I said several times in this thread I see design, and I could be proven wrong. Where in this whole thing did I say "must"? There's no "must" to this subject as far my observation about the nature of matter. I've said before I don't base my faith on this observation, I'm just making the observation and asking if we don't know "why", then "why not design"? because I see design here, and it could also be "why not science"?, but I see nothing in science attending this area yet. So we really don't know, but I'm going to make the observation and share it. If making the observation leads to offense, I apologize, I'm still going to make the observation. As to why do you believe in a designer/god without knowing why... This is going to get completely away from any observation about the nature of matter, because honestly, like I said, it's not where I base my faith. And this conversation is going to take a turn, and I feel lead to share, so I will. I believe because when I humble myself to not push my own will, but try to seek God's will through meditation and prayer, I am a much more fulfilled person than when I try live it out on my own. Life's not perfect. Often times it really stinks, but I know what makes me content and challenges me to help others when the "me" of the conversation would rather help myself. I'm not expecting anyone who hasn't experienced it to understand, and that's OK. It's not scientific for those who base everything on what they can sense and measure, I'm not pretending to tell them the way I base my faith is something they have to try if they don't want to. I just recommend to anyone who senses a God shaped hole in their being to see if God fits. I've been told before this is a delusion, and to that I say if it takes a life of delusion for me to feel the way I do when I'm placing my faith in God, to put others ahead of myself more, to visit others and to pray with them and see their lives change when they accept God's lead as well, then so be it. Others may find this type of life without that faith, and I say wonderful for them, but for me, that blind faith works just fine. Challenge it all you wish, It's been challenged before. You ask me why, I've just told you why, and it's why I'm going to continue to live like this until I'm gone. Tell me it's a delusion, humbug, bullshit, my genes, I'm going to say "that's nice". I know opening up like this can subject myself to ridicule, it's ok, It's all part of it, I'm not bothered by that ridicule. But if someone feels that as they continue on living via their own will, and it's not working out well, and they are open to God's will, I'm willing to talk to them about how I've learned to let go. That's my why. To be honest, I am disappointed in this reply. It boils down to your personal choice of 'faith' so it has zero to do with science or logic. That is your prerogative, however in having such faith you have just contradicted yourself by say 'there is no must about having a designer. Per se I don't see a problem with this, only the hypocrisy. If you base your faith on a designer, there MUST be a designer. What else can there be? I base my faith on God with what I stated I based my faith. I don't know if God used something that we will consider science to create the universe or if God used something completely from the other direction. That's what I mean about the "must". If we go all the way up the science ladder and see God, then God used science maybe even all the way. If we get to some point where science fails us then I've got to give it to God's design from that point. That's what I mean about not needing a "must". Sorry to disappoint you.
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Post by goz on Oct 19, 2019 3:32:34 GMT
To be honest, I am disappointed in this reply. It boils down to your personal choice of 'faith' so it has zero to do with science or logic. That is your prerogative, however in having such faith you have just contradicted yourself by say 'there is no must about having a designer. Per se I don't see a problem with this, only the hypocrisy. If you base your faith on a designer, there MUST be a designer. What else can there be? I base my faith on God with what I stated I based my faith. I don't know if God used something that we will consider science to create the universe or if God used something completely from the other direction. That's what I mean about the "must". If we go all the way up the science ladder and see God, then God used science maybe even all the way. If we get to some point where science fails us then I've got to give it to God's design from that point.That's what I mean about not needing a "must". Sorry to disappoint you. WTF is the 'science ladder'? and why would God be at the top of it? 'Science' is only a human's version of understanding how the natural forces that have always been actually work, be seen and understood in human terms. Science is NOT an entity in and of itself. IMHO you have it all wrong. Nothing new here, just a semi glorified God of the gaps argument using trendy scientific concepts to justify precisely nothing more than bog standard religious faith.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 3:44:22 GMT
I base my faith on God with what I stated I based my faith. I don't know if God used something that we will consider science to create the universe or if God used something completely from the other direction. That's what I mean about the "must". If we go all the way up the science ladder and see God, then God used science maybe even all the way. If we get to some point where science fails us then I've got to give it to God's design from that point.That's what I mean about not needing a "must". Sorry to disappoint you. WTF is the 'science ladder'? and why would God be at the top of it? 'Science' is only a human's version of understanding how the natural forces that have always been actually work, be seen and understood in human terms. Science is NOT an entity in and of itself. IMHO you have it all wrong. Nothing new here, just a semi glorified God of the gaps argument using trendy scientific concepts to justify precisely nothing more than bog standard religious faith. I used an analogy of science, man's understanding of nature, as something that we continually learn about nature, as we learn more about nature via science, we climb the ladder. My faith tells me that we will learn more and more until we get to the end of what we can understand or God. If my faith is misplaced, we will get to the end of what we understand, or we will understand all and God won't be there. Science will fail us where we fail to have the ability to understand. How is that different than what you are saying other than I have faith that the answer will include God if we ever get there?
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Post by goz on Oct 19, 2019 3:52:08 GMT
WTF is the 'science ladder'? and why would God be at the top of it? 'Science' is only a human's version of understanding how the natural forces that have always been actually work, be seen and understood in human terms. Science is NOT an entity in and of itself. IMHO you have it all wrong. Nothing new here, just a semi glorified God of the gaps argument using trendy scientific concepts to justify precisely nothing more than bog standard religious faith. I used an analogy of science, man's understanding of nature as something that we continually learn about nature, as we learn more about nature via science, we climb the ladder. My faith tells me that we will learn more and more until we get to the end of what we can understand or God. If my faith is misplaced, we will get to the end of what we understand, or we will understand all and God won't be there. Science will fail us where we fail to understand. How is that different than what you are saying other than I have faith that the answer will include God if we ever get there. Sorry, you just completely lost the logic plot! Your faith is what it is....faith, and it lies. Science is what it is...human's way of understanding the mechanisms of the physics of the natural world. I hate repeating myself however I have already stated that it doesn't matter if and when humans understand the science of nature, due to it being what it is, independent of little humans who are here is a blink in the time space continuum. Your 'faith' is on the same level of inconsequential in the overall scheme of things IMHO, being entirely man made and illusory..
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 4:04:29 GMT
I used an analogy of science, man's understanding of nature as something that we continually learn about nature, as we learn more about nature via science, we climb the ladder. My faith tells me that we will learn more and more until we get to the end of what we can understand or God. If my faith is misplaced, we will get to the end of what we understand, or we will understand all and God won't be there. Science will fail us where we fail to understand. How is that different than what you are saying other than I have faith that the answer will include God if we ever get there. Sorry, you just completely lost the logic plot! Your faith is what it is....faith, and it lies. Science is what it is...human's way of understanding the mechanisms of the physics of the natural world. I hate repeating myself however I have already stated that it doesn't matter if and when humans understand the science of nature, due to it being what it is, independent of little humans who are here is a blink in the time space continuum. Your 'faith' is on the same level of inconsequential in the overall scheme of things IMHO, being entirely man made and illusory.. What logic plot is there to lose? Like I said, I'm good with someone not believing in faith. Many people don't. And yes, we are but a blink, we are little bits of the universe pondering it's own existence, I'm not sure where I'm contradicting you there, other than allowing for that we probably wont continue to exist to the point where we know it all or get to God, you make a great point there. If that's the nature of what you've been going at, I agree with your point. I think man will strive for that understanding until we get it all or we cease to exist. And again, I know when exposing faith, that faith itself will be ridiculed, it's ok.
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Post by goz on Oct 19, 2019 5:04:58 GMT
Sorry, you just completely lost the logic plot! Your faith is what it is....faith, and it lies. Science is what it is...human's way of understanding the mechanisms of the physics of the natural world. I hate repeating myself however I have already stated that it doesn't matter if and when humans understand the science of nature, due to it being what it is, independent of little humans who are here is a blink in the time space continuum. Your 'faith' is on the same level of inconsequential in the overall scheme of things IMHO, being entirely man made and illusory.. What logic plot is there to lose? Like I said, I'm good with someone not believing in faith. Many people don't. And yes, we are but a blink, we are little bits of the universe pondering it's own existence, I'm not sure where I'm contradicting you there, other than allowing for that we probably wont continue to exist to the point where we know it all or get to God, you make a great point there. If that's the nature of what you've been going at, I agree with your point. I think man will strive for that understanding until we get it all or we cease to exist. And again, I know when exposing faith, that faith itself will be ridiculed, it's ok. The logic plot is lost when you resort to 'faith'.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 5:09:56 GMT
What logic plot is there to lose? Like I said, I'm good with someone not believing in faith. Many people don't. And yes, we are but a blink, we are little bits of the universe pondering it's own existence, I'm not sure where I'm contradicting you there, other than allowing for that we probably wont continue to exist to the point where we know it all or get to God, you make a great point there. If that's the nature of what you've been going at, I agree with your point. I think man will strive for that understanding until we get it all or we cease to exist. And again, I know when exposing faith, that faith itself will be ridiculed, it's ok. The logic plot is lost when you resort to 'faith'. If having faith is a "logic plot", then I'll own it without any complaint.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 5:41:54 GMT
If having faith is a "logic plot", then I'll own it without any complaint. You may lose your credibility in the process, because faith is really a cop-out delusion. While it may mean something to you, is it really rational and what exactly is this faith, that a "designer" is going to reveal it all for you in the end? Oh no! I'll lose my credibility because I have faith! Will people say "Look out for that guy, he's not credible, the other day he was.... Praying!!! Don't trust him!!!!" I guess if that happens, I'll have to own that too. My goodness, I'll have no credibility and my logic plot will be exposed for all to see... How embarrassing!! My faith is what helps guide me to be a more selfless person. I laid out how I base it a few posts back, feel free to pick it apart, it won't change anything, I feel whole with it, not so much without it. I'll leave worrying about delusion to others. Actually you and I went round about delusion some time ago, and I don't remember either of us going away with scars over it. I think we just agreed to disagree. And I don't know if there's some pot of knowledge at the end of the rainbow, but I don't need one to get something good from faith.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 6:12:38 GMT
Oh no! I'll lose my credibility because I have faith! Will people say "Look out for that guy, he's not credible, the other day he was.... Praying!!! Don't trust him!!!!" I guess if that happens, I'll have to own that too. My goodness, I'll have no credibility and my logic plot will be exposed for all to see... How embarrassing!! My faith is what helps guide me to be a more selfless person. I laid out how I base it a few posts back, feel free to pick it apart, it won't change anything, I feel whole with it, not so much without it. I'll leave worrying about delusion to others. Actually you and I went round about delusion some time ago, and I don't remember either of us going away with scars over it. I think we just agreed to disagree. And I don't know if there's some pot of knowledge at the end of the rainbow, but I don't need one to get something good from faith. Whole is a great way to feel and if your faith helps you with that, that is great. I guess what I was driving at, was that is it credible to express belief in something that to many is not grounded in logic or solid reason, as has been pointed out by other posters here. What if the reveal is that you are the designer all along? Just some food for thought.
I am not sure that delusion was at the center of discussion that you have brought up, it was about the definition of "militant" and my use of it, which I believe you lost.
If it was really something that could be grounded in logic or solid reason, would it really be faith? From the dictionary: Faith: strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. I can remember us going round and round. I don't remember changing my definition of anything as a result, I thought it was one of those where the battle just ended, but if I lost, I hope you were kind in my defeat and there was no lasting damage to my credibility or any embarrassing logic plots left for all to see.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 6:38:44 GMT
If it was really something that could be grounded in logic or solid reason, would it really be faith? From the dictionary: Faith: strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. I can remember us going round and round. I don't remember changing my definition of anything as a result, I thought it was one of those where the battle just ended, but if I lost, I hope you were kind in my defeat and there was no lasting damage to my credibility or any embarrassing logic plots left for all to see. I'd say you are a person that knows what works for you and have a fixed stance about that, but if one is arguing for their own "faith", which is delusion, then you are just arguing for your own limitations and may end up looking like that chump on your avatar with a goofy grin. Each to his own though, it is your journey and no-one can really tell you how to travel it.
If I recall, you asked for re-enforcements from Nora to put it into perspective, but the defeat was kind enough I'd say...
Who said I was arguing for my own faith? I was asked what I based my faith on and I shared it. I know I may get ridiculed, it's ok. Most of the arguing here is about whether I get to ponder tinkertoys or not. I remember calling her into the thread to bring in an outside opinion on some part of our discussion, I'm pretty sure she was very impressed our dialectical prowess.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 6:58:30 GMT
Who said I was arguing for my own faith? I was asked what I based my faith on and I shared it. I know I may get ridiculed, it's ok. Most of the arguing here is about whether I get to ponder tinkertoys or not. I remember calling her into the thread to bring in an outside opinion on some part of our discussion, I'm pretty sure she was very impressed our dialectical prowess. Well, it is your faith you need to defend, if you don't believe in it, what point does it serve? It is a pointless discussion otherwise.
Yes, and Nora's dialectical prowess was impressive too. That is why you called upon her.
I believe in it, I guess I'm not sure what defending it means. Is there some way to attack it? If you mean not losing faith because someone calls it a delusion or life gets rough, then you already know I've got that covered. It's not going anywhere. Real life has only made it strong, a message board discussion is just for sharing thought. It's getting late and time to shut down. If this means another notch in the win column for you, be kind to my credibility and mind my logic plots. It's been fun.
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Post by The Lost One on Oct 19, 2019 7:11:27 GMT
If having faith is a "logic plot", then I'll own it without any complaint. You may lose your credibility in the process, because faith is really a cop-out delusion. While it may mean something to you, is it really rational and what exactly is this faith, that a "designer" is going to reveal it all for you in the end? Faith is not rational by definition. But in theory there may be rational reasons to embrace it, at least for some in certain situations. Imagine someone being tortured and the only way they can get through it is to think of their belief in God. For that person then the leap to faith is wholly rational even if the faith itself is not rational. Now, take that idea and apply it in less dramatic circumstances. Imagine that some people look at the world through a reductive lens and feel despair at the thought that we are just atoms in the void and the only way to battle through this is to have faith that, despite the lack of evidence, there is something more to the universe. Now does faith have a very high risk of people being wrong? Yes. Are there other potential ways people might survive torture or existential despair? Yes. But if faith is what works best for a particular person and they are happy to live with the likelihood that their beliefs will not turn out to be accurate then is there a rational reason why they should not embrace faith? Arguments like "we ought only to believe that which can be demonstrated" only hold up if the individual thinks it is important only to believe in that which can be demonstrated. One cannot get an ought from an is and reason is ultimately slave to the passions. A rejoinder here might be that faith can lead people to do horrible things. This is true. However, faith can also lead people to do good things. And for those who do bad things they should know the world has no compunction to tolerate their behaviour or respect their faith. The acceptance that a religious belief is founded on faith is the acceptance that no-one else has to heed it. This leaves fideism superior to the natural theology and revelatory approaches which leave religious people with the belief that they are right and the rest of the world needs to be educated and forced. If religious belief is founded on faith with the understanding that no-one else need accept that faith then tolerance comes naturally. Organised religions are therefore a danger as they often teach religious belief as fact. Someone who is indoctrinated is not faithful since their belief relies on authority, not their own individual leap of faith. More to the point, the God of faith is one of meaning to the believer. The God taught as fact and the God argued for by natural theology are just supposed features of existence. The worship of such a supposed entity would be no different to worshipping gravity or yoghurt. If one worships such a being for a good result in the afterlife then that has all the spiritual significance of taking out a life insurance policy. I think Homergreg's responses in this thread have been very commendable. He's not arguing he's right or even likely to be right, he's not saying others should believe as he does, he's not saying science or reason in any way supports his beliefs, he's not arguing for anything to change in people's lives based on his beliefs. He's just saying how he sees the world and I for one can respect him for that.
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Post by The Lost One on Oct 19, 2019 7:20:48 GMT
only that people can become a slave to their delusional faith. My question to you is why is that necessarily a bad thing? Homergreg seems to get something out of it. Who are we to say he shouldn't?
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Post by The Lost One on Oct 19, 2019 7:29:52 GMT
My question to you is why is that necessarily a bad thing? Homergreg seems to get something out of it. Who are we to say he shouldn't? It is neither bad nor good, but is it rational or reasonable thought? People can believe what they want, but when they share what they believe, don't expect for others to just shrug it off, especially on a discussion thread. Fair point
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Post by itsmagic on Oct 19, 2019 9:09:11 GMT
there are two possibilities: 1) God does not exist - no problem. no consequence.
2) God exists - major implications:
a) He has made Himself known. b) it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie.
c) Every word of the Bible is the Eternal Truth.
d) therefore : * major eternal consequences *
what more could God do than to send His own Son to tell us the truth ?
perform miracles, cast out demons, raise the dead. feed the multitudes, preach the gospel.
give us an entire book of object lessons. teach us truth so simple a child could understand it.
warn us about liars and deceivers.
the Enemy in this Spiritual Warfare is Desperately Clever. he Blinds people to the truth.
God gives us chapter and verse to confound every foe. defeat the final enemy - death itself - rise from the dead.
preach this truth till he returns for His own.
what thing or idol will keep you from seeing God ? what will keep you from believing if you truly see the Truth ?
most people have some favorite sin or something that keeps them from God.
otherwise they would accept God's free gift of eternal life in heaven.
simple choice - logical to me. look in the book for the answers.
the Creator and Author of life itself wrote it all down so we can find the Truth about God Himself.
"faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Heb 11 : 1 - these are eternal spiritual truths about the invisible realm of forever. -
you Really want to get this right - by examining & understanding ALL the Evidence in the bible.
there may be some time now for you to come to your senses.
don't let the master deceiver lie to you about God's Eternal Truths.
you think you are smarter than that. you are if you see what God Himself says about it.
this is the evidence, the PROOF of God in His Own Words. Eternal Truth. the old & new testament.
"The heavens declare the glory of God" Psalms 19 : 1
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Post by faustus5 on Oct 19, 2019 11:49:17 GMT
This was a pretty renowned and cited atheist. A pretty renowned and cited atheist whose mind started decaying in old age to the point where he embraced bullshit pseudoscience in his final years and was widely denounced by his peers in philosophy and science for doing so. If you had an ounce of self awareness and a concern with aligning your thoughts to the truth, you might pause and wonder why it is that so very few smart people who study this stuff for a living ever come close to thinking the way you do. But you obviously won't.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Oct 19, 2019 11:53:03 GMT
This was a pretty renowned and cited atheist. A pretty renowned and cited atheist whose mind started decaying in old age to the point where he embraced bullshit pseudoscience in his final years and was widely denounced by his peers in philosophy and science for doing so. If you had an ounce of self awareness and a concern with aligning your thoughts to the truth, you might pause and wonder why it is that so very few smart people who study this stuff for a living ever come close to thinking the way you do. But you obviously won't.
"For a living" is the operative phrase here. If I had enough money I could buy you and make you say anything I wanted you to say.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 12:18:05 GMT
Ok, it's kinda weird for how my mind works to respond to those who chop up a post into pieces and address portions of a whole thought. I can live with it though, but when one truncates the post as well, it hinders our ability to communicate, so chop if it makes you happy, but please don't chop and cut. I chop so I can reply to individual thoughts. And I cut things I'm not replying to, simply because otherwise the posts wind up being incredibly huge with most of the content simply being copies of copies of copies. Sorry if you don't like it, but it's the most practical way to do this IMO. No, as I said, I'm not accusing you or anybody in particular of this. Just a general comment. But again, that said, if you are saying nature looks designed, then are you not saying that there has to be a designer of nature? I mean, if what you're saying is "nature looks designed, but that doesn't mean anything in particular because even if it looks designed that doesn't mean there's a designer", then sure, we're in agreement. But unless I misunderstand you, you think that the apparent design in nature means something. If you don't think it means god, then what do you think it means? Okay, good. Please don't take questions as accusations. I didn't say or imply that it was in contention. I was merely asking to see what you believe. Yes, but that misses the point; again, I wasn't accusing you of being ready to do this. What I said was, if faith is a valid reason to believe things without or in spite of evidence, then what could you or anybody say to those whose faith does drive them to do non-good things? If you urge them not to do X, and they say that they have faith that X is the right thing to do... then what? If you accept that faith is a valid reason to believe things, there's no way to tell them that they're wrong. If "I have faith" is a valid reason to believe in god, then "I have faith" is a valid reason to believe that god wants you to do something horrific, and "I have faith" is a reason to think that you should obey. There is no basis to think that the first of those propositions is okay and the following two are not. Point being, "I have faith that X is true" is not, never can be, a reasonable statement.
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Post by faustus5 on Oct 19, 2019 13:08:24 GMT
For a living" is the operative phrase here. If I had enough money I could buy you and make you say anything I wanted you to say. You only think this way because you are an ignorant fuckwit who has never worked in a lab, hung out with actual scientists, or followed their debates with one another.
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