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Post by The Herald Erjen on Oct 19, 2019 13:12:49 GMT
For a living" is the operative phrase here. If I had enough money I could buy you and make you say anything I wanted you to say. You only think this way because you are an ignorant fuckwit who has never worked in a lab, hung out with actual scientists, or followed their debates with one another. And you're an ignorant fuckwit who has done these things? Wow! Impressive.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 13:31:26 GMT
This was a pretty renowned and cited atheist. A pretty renowned and cited atheist whose mind started decaying in old age to the point where he embraced bullshit pseudoscience in his final years and was widely denounced by his peers in philosophy and science for doing so. If you had an ounce of self awareness and a concern with aligning your thoughts to the truth, you might pause and wonder why it is that so very few smart people who study this stuff for a living ever come close to thinking the way you do. But you obviously won't.
Oh I think about it all the time. I also think about how our accepted view of the universe has changed, how science can prove itself wrong and have to rewrite the textbooks. I accept what science has discovered to be true, even allowing for the scientific method to occassionally be flawed and have to back up a little and rewrite. That's all part of the discovery. I look at faith and see that having it, well, it is not something that man's understanding of the nature of the universe will ever prove or disprove, and I see that it's something else. I know that religion as a construct of faith is a very flawed thing that man uses to seek out their faith, so I also accept that religion will have to redefine itself a whole lot as our collective knowledge grows. That doesn't eliminate, for me, faith. So to the great consternation of those who reject faith, I amble along with them. I gaze at the stars, I ponder existence. I read about the things we discover and thirst to know more.... And I do it with faith. That it tends to bother those who have to have proof in hand to have faith, all I can do about that is share that I don't reject man's discoveries, that I'm in it with them.... and point out when I see tinkertoys to remind them we have a very long way to go if we want to explain it all. I know it's a minority opinion amongst the knowledgeable, and I'm ok with it.
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Post by faustus5 on Oct 19, 2019 13:31:28 GMT
You only think this way because you are an ignorant fuckwit who has never worked in a lab, hung out with actual scientists, or followed their debates with one another. And you're an ignorant fuckwit who has done these things? Wow! Impressive. Except I'm not an ignorant fuckwit, at least not about science, a subject you know jack shit about.
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Post by faustus5 on Oct 19, 2019 13:36:00 GMT
That it tends to bother those who have to have proof in hand to have faith, all I can do about that is share that I don't reject man's discoveries, that I'm in it with them.... and point out when I see tinkertoys to remind them we have a very long way to go if we want to explain it all. Except you aren't seeing "tinkertoys" in anything like the sense you think you are. You have created a model of the universe which projects what you already believed ahead of time onto what you actually see, and you pretend it is an observation when in fact it is a baseless, unjustified THEORY.
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Oct 19, 2019 13:51:53 GMT
That it tends to bother those who have to have proof in hand to have faith, all I can do about that is share that I don't reject man's discoveries, that I'm in it with them.... and point out when I see tinkertoys to remind them we have a very long way to go if we want to explain it all. Except you aren't seeing "tinkertoys" in anything like the sense you think you are. You have created a model of the universe which projects what you already believed ahead of time onto what you actually see, and you pretend it is an observation when in fact it is a baseless, unjustified THEORY. Oh, really? You don't say? How's that global warming thing working for you lately?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 14:12:12 GMT
Ok, it's kinda weird for how my mind works to respond to those who chop up a post into pieces and address portions of a whole thought. I can live with it though, but when one truncates the post as well, it hinders our ability to communicate, so chop if it makes you happy, but please don't chop and cut. I chop so I can reply to individual thoughts. And I cut things I'm not replying to, simply because otherwise the posts wind up being incredibly huge with most of the content simply being copies of copies of copies. Sorry if you don't like it, but it's the most practical way to do this IMO. No, as I said, I'm not accusing you or anybody in particular of this. Just a general comment. But again, that said, if you are saying nature looks designed, then are you not saying that there has to be a designer of nature? I mean, if what you're saying is "nature looks designed, but that doesn't mean anything in particular because even if it looks designed that doesn't mean there's a designer", then sure, we're in agreement. But unless I misunderstand you, you think that the apparent design in nature means something. If you don't think it means god, then what do you think it means? Okay, good. Please don't take questions as accusations. I didn't say or imply that it was in contention. I was merely asking to see what you believe. Yes, but that misses the point; again, I wasn't accusing you of being ready to do this. What I said was, if faith is a valid reason to believe things without or in spite of evidence, then what could you or anybody say to those whose faith does drive them to do non-good things? If you urge them not to do X, and they say that they have faith that X is the right thing to do... then what? If you accept that faith is a valid reason to believe things, there's no way to tell them that they're wrong. If "I have faith" is a valid reason to believe in god, then "I have faith" is a valid reason to believe that god wants you to do something horrific, and "I have faith" is a reason to think that you should obey. There is no basis to think that the first of those propositions is okay and the following two are not. Point being, "I have faith that X is true" is not, never can be, a reasonable statement.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 14:21:21 GMT
That it tends to bother those who have to have proof in hand to have faith, all I can do about that is share that I don't reject man's discoveries, that I'm in it with them.... and point out when I see tinkertoys to remind them we have a very long way to go if we want to explain it all. Except you aren't seeing "tinkertoys" in anything like the sense you think you are. You have created a model of the universe which projects what you already believed ahead of time onto what you actually see, and you pretend it is an observation when in fact it is a baseless, unjustified THEORY. I saw and was marvelling about the tinkertoy nature for a very, very long time before the design element popped into my head. I see tinkertoys there now, and if I became a strong atheist tomorrow, I would see tinkertoys tomorrow. I would just reject the notion of design and wonder how it got that way.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2019 15:17:27 GMT
You may lose your credibility in the process, because faith is really a cop-out delusion. While it may mean something to you, is it really rational and what exactly is this faith, that a "designer" is going to reveal it all for you in the end? Faith is not rational by definition. But in theory there may be rational reasons to embrace it, at least for some in certain situations. Imagine someone being tortured and the only way they can get through it is to think of their belief in God. For that person then the leap to faith is wholly rational even if the faith itself is not rational. Now, take that idea and apply it in less dramatic circumstances. Imagine that some people look at the world through a reductive lens and feel despair at the thought that we are just atoms in the void and the only way to battle through this is to have faith that, despite the lack of evidence, there is something more to the universe. Now does faith have a very high risk of people being wrong? Yes. Are there other potential ways people might survive torture or existential despair? Yes. But if faith is what works best for a particular person and they are happy to live with the likelihood that their beliefs will not turn out to be accurate then is there a rational reason why they should not embrace faith? Arguments like "we ought only to believe that which can be demonstrated" only hold up if the individual thinks it is important only to believe in that which can be demonstrated. One cannot get an ought from an is and reason is ultimately slave to the passions. A rejoinder here might be that faith can lead people to do horrible things. This is true. However, faith can also lead people to do good things. And for those who do bad things they should know the world has no compunction to tolerate their behaviour or respect their faith. The acceptance that a religious belief is founded on faith is the acceptance that no-one else has to heed it. This leaves fideism superior to the natural theology and revelatory approaches which leave religious people with the belief that they are right and the rest of the world needs to be educated and forced. If religious belief is founded on faith with the understanding that no-one else need accept that faith then tolerance comes naturally. Organised religions are therefore a danger as they often teach religious belief as fact. Someone who is indoctrinated is not faithful since their belief relies on authority, not their own individual leap of faith. More to the point, the God of faith is one of meaning to the believer. The God taught as fact and the God argued for by natural theology are just supposed features of existence. The worship of such a supposed entity would be no different to worshipping gravity or yoghurt. If one worships such a being for a good result in the afterlife then that has all the spiritual significance of taking out a life insurance policy. I think Homergreg's responses in this thread have been very commendable. He's not arguing he's right or even likely to be right, he's not saying others should believe as he does, he's not saying science or reason in any way supports his beliefs, he's not arguing for anything to change in people's lives based on his beliefs. He's just saying how he sees the world and I for one can respect him for that. Thank you. It will be interesting to me to see where this all leads, if anywhere.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Oct 19, 2019 17:23:31 GMT
Except you aren't seeing "tinkertoys" in anything like the sense you think you are. You have created a model of the universe which projects what you already believed ahead of time onto what you actually see, and you pretend it is an observation when in fact it is a baseless, unjustified THEORY. Oh, really? You don't say? How's that global warming thing working for you lately? I can't speak for him, but for the rest of us, not so good. Many glaciers and some of the ice caps are melting, and extreme weather events are increasing. Also most of the temperature record-breaking years have happened over the last decade or so. How is climate change denial working out for you?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Oct 19, 2019 17:28:25 GMT
it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie.
'Impossible' and yet apparently the Bible tells the truth, even if God sometimes does not: 1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee. 2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee. Jeremiah 4:10 Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul. Jeremiah 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me. Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:The apologist and special pleaders at this point will argue that it is not God but a proxy on His behalf in most cases doing the deceiving. But, as has been pointed out before, in a similar example if I was to send an assassin to kill someone does that not make of me a murderer all the same? The law for one says it would. There is also the observation that if God is perfect then His deceit would be perfect i.e. it would fool utterly. So how would we ever know we have been tricked?
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Post by lowtacks86 on Oct 19, 2019 17:28:38 GMT
there are two possibilities: 1) God does not exist - no problem. no consequence.
2) God exists - major implications:
a) He has made Himself known. b) it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie.
c) Every word of the Bible is the Eternal Truth.
d) therefore : * major eternal consequences *
what more could God do than to send His own Son to tell us the truth ?
perform miracles, cast out demons, raise the dead. feed the multitudes, preach the gospel.
give us an entire book of object lessons. teach us truth so simple a child could understand it.
warn us about liars and deceivers.
the Enemy in this Spiritual Warfare is Desperately Clever. he Blinds people to the truth.
God gives us chapter and verse to confound every foe. defeat the final enemy - death itself - rise from the dead.
preach this truth till he returns for His own.
what thing or idol will keep you from seeing God ? what will keep you from believing if you truly see the Truth ?
most people have some favorite sin or something that keeps them from God.
otherwise they would accept God's free gift of eternal life in heaven.
simple choice - logical to me. look in the book for the answers.
the Creator and Author of life itself wrote it all down so we can find the Truth about God Himself.
"faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Heb 11 : 1 - these are eternal spiritual truths about the invisible realm of forever. -
you Really want to get this right - by examining & understanding ALL the Evidence in the bible.
there may be some time now for you to come to your senses.
don't let the master deceiver lie to you about God's Eternal Truths.
you think you are smarter than that. you are if you see what God Himself says about it.
this is the evidence, the PROOF of God in His Own Words. Eternal Truth. the old & new testament.
"The heavens declare the glory of God" Psalms 19 : 1
False dichotomy, even if God existed why must does entail that it has to be the Christian god?
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Oct 19, 2019 22:11:05 GMT
Oh, really? You don't say? How's that global warming thing working for you lately? I can't speak for him, but for the rest of us, not so good. Many glaciers and some of the ice caps are melting, and extreme weather events are increasing. Also most of the temperature record-breaking years have happened over the last decade or so. How is climate change denial working out for you? I wouldn't know. I've never denied the climate was changing. How many more times do I have to say that before it finally sinks in?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Oct 19, 2019 22:13:50 GMT
I can't speak for him, but for the rest of us, not so good. Many glaciers and some of the ice caps are melting, and extreme weather events are increasing. Also most of the temperature record-breaking years have happened over the last decade or so. How is climate change denial working out for you? I wouldn't know. I've never denied the climate was changing. How many more times do I have to say that before it finally sinks in? In which case why the sarcasm about global warming 'working out'? Perhaps you think things are growing colder?
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Oct 19, 2019 22:20:18 GMT
I wouldn't know. I've never denied the climate was changing. How many more times do I have to say that before it finally sinks in? In which case why the sarcasm about global warming 'working out'? Perhaps you think things are growing colder? I'm referring to the scheme that is designed to lay a big guilt trip on humanity for the climate changing.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Oct 19, 2019 22:23:15 GMT
In which case why the sarcasm about global warming 'working out'? Perhaps you think things are growing colder? I'm referring to the scheme that is designed to lay a big guilt trip on humanity for the climate changing. When God is to blame instead?
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Post by The Herald Erjen on Oct 19, 2019 22:24:41 GMT
I'm referring to the scheme that is designed to lay a big guilt trip on humanity for the climate changing. When God is to blame instead? Isn't God to blame for everything?
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Post by goz on Oct 20, 2019 4:16:26 GMT
When God is to blame instead? Isn't God to blame for everything? You told me several times, in fact you insisted, that it was because the CO2 was getting so low!
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Oct 20, 2019 9:49:59 GMT
When God is to blame instead? Isn't God to blame for everything? According to the Bible He is certainly responsible for natural evil, or great misfortune.
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Post by ArArArchStanton on Oct 20, 2019 17:17:51 GMT
Isn't God to blame for everything? According to the Bible He is certainly responsible for natural evil, or great misfortune. why believe the bible?
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Post by itsmagic on Oct 21, 2019 6:06:56 GMT
there are two possibilities: 1) God does not exist - no problem. no consequence.
2) God exists - major implications:
a) He has made Himself known. b) it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to lie.
c) Every word of the Bible is the Eternal Truth.
d) therefore : * major eternal consequences *
what more could God do than to send His own Son to tell us the truth ?
perform miracles, cast out demons, raise the dead. feed the multitudes, preach the gospel.
give us an entire book of object lessons. teach us truth so simple a child could understand it.
warn us about liars and deceivers.
the Enemy in this Spiritual Warfare is Desperately Clever. he Blinds people to the truth.
God gives us chapter and verse to confound every foe. defeat the final enemy - death itself - rise from the dead.
preach this truth till he returns for His own.
what thing or idol will keep you from seeing God ? what will keep you from believing if you truly see the Truth ?
most people have some favorite sin or something that keeps them from God.
otherwise they would accept God's free gift of eternal life in heaven.
simple choice - logical to me. look in the book for the answers.
the Creator and Author of life itself wrote it all down so we can find the Truth about God Himself.
"faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Heb 11 : 1 - these are eternal spiritual truths about the invisible realm of forever. -
you Really want to get this right - by examining & understanding ALL the Evidence in the bible.
there may be some time now for you to come to your senses.
don't let the master deceiver lie to you about God's Eternal Truths.
you think you are smarter than that. you are if you see what God Himself says about it.
this is the evidence, the PROOF of God in His Own Words. Eternal Truth. the old & new testament.
"The heavens declare the glory of God" Psalms 19 : 1
False dichotomy, even if God existed why must does entail that it has to be the Christian god? He is the One True Living Supreme All Powerful God. He has made Himself Known as God the Father, Jesus the Son of God
who rose from the dead, and the Holy Spirit Who wrote the scriptures with the perfect Word of God. This is the Eternal Truth.
anything else is a deception and a lie of the devil
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