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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 1, 2019 16:38:03 GMT
LMAO So you don't need to read/learn about subject to be an expert in that subject? I think I now understand your entire worldview. It's the epitome of Dunning-Kruger. I would wager that the MAJORITY of people who are touched by beautiful poetry or song lyrics did not have to read a textbook about it. You read textbooks about it and think you are an expert. Lol The issue wasn't about being "touched" by poetry or lyrics, the issue was about knowing how to measure depth in poetry and lyrics. Do you think that depends on nothing more than your subjective feelings? Yeah, it's pretty standard to consider those who've spent a significant amount of time studying something "experts." Just because someone listens to music or watches movies or reads poetry doesn't make them an expert on music, movies, and poetry. There's actually an art and craft to those things that requires study. Anyway, I'd also wager I've read a ton more poetry than you have, including the complete (or near to it) works of Milton, Shakespeare, Chaucer, Yeats, Wordsworth, Keats, Blake, Eliot, Dickinson, Whitman, Donne, Pope, Spenser, Shelley, Byron, Stevens, Auden, Coleridge, Herbert, Burns, Frost, Ashbery, Merrill, Larkin, Hill, Lowell, Plath, Bishop... not to mention all the poets/poems I've read in numerous anthologies. If you think you could analyze the "depth" of any poem by any of these poets I'd be astonished.
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Post by heeeeey on Dec 1, 2019 17:01:01 GMT
I would wager that the MAJORITY of people who are touched by beautiful poetry or song lyrics did not have to read a textbook about it. You read textbooks about it and think you are an expert. Lol The issue wasn't about being "touched" by poetry or lyrics, the issue was about knowing how to measure depth in poetry and lyrics. Do you think that depends on nothing more than your subjective feelings? Yeah, it's pretty standard to consider those who've spent a significant amount of time studying something "experts." Just because someone listens to music or watches movies or reads poetry doesn't make them an expert on music, movies, and poetry. There's actually an art and craft to those things that requires study. Anyway, I'd also wager I've read a ton more poetry than you have, including the complete (or near to it) works of Milton, Shakespeare, Chaucer, Yeats, Wordsworth, Keats, Blake, Eliot, Dickinson, Whitman, Donne, Pope, Spenser, Shelley, Byron, Stevens, Auden, Coleridge, Herbert, Burns, Frost, Ashbery, Merrill, Larkin, Hill, Lowell, Plath, Bishop... not to mention all the poets/poems I've read in numerous anthologies. If you think you could analyze the "depth" of any poem by any of these poets I'd be astonished. Or maybe you're just a snob. You are implying that the majority of people who enjoy reading poetry or moved by song lyrics are somehow ignorant for being touched by it because they don't know how to 'measure depth'. Dream on. Since you've read and studied it by rote, I'm sure you can easily write a poem. Why don't you post one of your poems?
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 1, 2019 18:05:31 GMT
The issue wasn't about being "touched" by poetry or lyrics, the issue was about knowing how to measure depth in poetry and lyrics. Do you think that depends on nothing more than your subjective feelings? Yeah, it's pretty standard to consider those who've spent a significant amount of time studying something "experts." Just because someone listens to music or watches movies or reads poetry doesn't make them an expert on music, movies, and poetry. There's actually an art and craft to those things that requires study. Anyway, I'd also wager I've read a ton more poetry than you have, including the complete (or near to it) works of Milton, Shakespeare, Chaucer, Yeats, Wordsworth, Keats, Blake, Eliot, Dickinson, Whitman, Donne, Pope, Spenser, Shelley, Byron, Stevens, Auden, Coleridge, Herbert, Burns, Frost, Ashbery, Merrill, Larkin, Hill, Lowell, Plath, Bishop... not to mention all the poets/poems I've read in numerous anthologies. If you think you could analyze the "depth" of any poem by any of these poets I'd be astonished. Or maybe you're just a snob. You are implying that the majority of people who enjoy reading poetry or moved by song lyrics are somehow ignorant for being touched by it because they don't know how to 'measure depth'. Dream on. Since you've read and studied it by rote, I'm sure you can easily write a poem. Why don't you post one of your poems? It's nothing to do with being a snob, you just don't know what you're talking about but constantly make claims as if you do. Yes, when you don't know about something you are ignorant about that something, that's literally the definition of the word. Being "touched" by something doesn't make you an expert on that something. This is pretty basic, obvious stuff. Writing and studying poetry are two completely different disciplines. The best critics/academics are rarely the best poets and vice versa. That said, yes, I've written plenty of poetry in my day, but not much I consider to be very good. A big reason I don't consider it very good is precisely because I know how to measure "depth" and have high standards for quality that I rarely feel I meet. Writing good poetry is hard work, and even with hard work it's not guarantee you'll produce anything of quality. But, fine, this is probably my favorite of what I've written (caveat: it's an excerpt from a much longer piece):
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Post by heeeeey on Dec 1, 2019 20:09:56 GMT
Or maybe you're just a snob. You are implying that the majority of people who enjoy reading poetry or moved by song lyrics are somehow ignorant for being touched by it because they don't know how to 'measure depth'. Dream on. Since you've read and studied it by rote, I'm sure you can easily write a poem. Why don't you post one of your poems? It's nothing to do with being a snob, you just don't know what you're talking about but constantly make claims as if you do. Yes, when you don't know about something you are ignorant about that something, that's literally the definition of the word. Being "touched" by something doesn't make you an expert on that something. This is pretty basic, obvious stuff. Writing and studying poetry are two completely different disciplines. The best critics/academics are rarely the best poets and vice versa. That said, yes, I've written plenty of poetry in my day, but not much I consider to be very good. A big reason I don't consider it very good is precisely because I know how to measure "depth" and have high standards for quality that I rarely feel I meet. Writing good poetry is hard work, and even with hard work it's not guarantee you'll produce anything of quality. But, fine, this is probably my favorite of what I've written (caveat: it's an excerpt from a much longer piece): It's not hard work when it comes via inspiration. Also, length =/= depth. Rumi wrote very short but inspired and deep poems.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 1, 2019 21:25:38 GMT
It's nothing to do with being a snob, you just don't know what you're talking about but constantly make claims as if you do. Yes, when you don't know about something you are ignorant about that something, that's literally the definition of the word. Being "touched" by something doesn't make you an expert on that something. This is pretty basic, obvious stuff. Writing and studying poetry are two completely different disciplines. The best critics/academics are rarely the best poets and vice versa. That said, yes, I've written plenty of poetry in my day, but not much I consider to be very good. A big reason I don't consider it very good is precisely because I know how to measure "depth" and have high standards for quality that I rarely feel I meet. Writing good poetry is hard work, and even with hard work it's not guarantee you'll produce anything of quality. But, fine, this is probably my favorite of what I've written (caveat: it's an excerpt from a much longer piece): It's not hard work when it comes via inspiration. Also, length =/= depth. Rumi wrote very short but inspired and deep poems. Yes it is, it's hard work no matter what. You simply don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I never said anything about length equaling depth. No idea where you got that from.
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Post by heeeeey on Dec 1, 2019 22:00:49 GMT
It's not hard work when it comes via inspiration. Also, length =/= depth. Rumi wrote very short but inspired and deep poems. Yes it is, it's hard work no matter what. You simply don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I never said anything about length equaling depth. No idea where you got that from. I know exactly of which I speak. It is hard work only if you're not inspired and writing from the head instead of the heart in a mechanical 'left-brained' and measured way. You claim to have studied poetry, but have you studied the biographies of poets? Many said that the words flowed through them easily, because they were inspired to write. Some even say poems or songs came to them in dreams. The best poems ever written were not 'hard work' for those who wrote them. If it's 'hard work' for you, you should try a different hobby.
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Post by Eva Yojimbo on Dec 2, 2019 11:47:09 GMT
Yes it is, it's hard work no matter what. You simply don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I never said anything about length equaling depth. No idea where you got that from. I know exactly of which I speak. It is hard work only if you're not inspired and writing from the head instead of the heart in a mechanical 'left-brained' and measured way. You claim to have studied poetry, but have you studied the biographies of poets? Many said that the words flowed through them easily, because they were inspired to write. Some even say poems or songs came to them in dreams. The best poems ever written were not 'hard work' for those who wrote them. If it's 'hard work' for you, you should try a different hobby. No, you don't. Go read the published notebooks of any great poets and see how much work goes into it. Go listen to/read poets talk about the craft of writing poetry and understand how much of it is like putting together a puzzle. Teens are inspired to write poetry, but teens almost always lack the skill to know how to fully express that inspiration in the craft. Yeah, Keats famously talked about "words flowing through him," but his notebooks tell a different tale given how much editing he did. So whatever "inspiration" he may have had in the moment was heavily tempered by thoughtful craft afterward; and even much of his "inspiration" came from the study of Shakespeare's sonnets and his critique of what he felt worked and didn't work in them. So even "inspiration" is, in large part, tied to an understanding of the craft of poetry itself. The notion that the best poems ever written weren't "hard work" is just sheer ignorance, and plain false. But I know this combination of ignorance expressed as falsities is kinda your thing.
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Post by heeeeey on Dec 2, 2019 15:47:20 GMT
I know exactly of which I speak. It is hard work only if you're not inspired and writing from the head instead of the heart in a mechanical 'left-brained' and measured way. You claim to have studied poetry, but have you studied the biographies of poets? Many said that the words flowed through them easily, because they were inspired to write. Some even say poems or songs came to them in dreams. The best poems ever written were not 'hard work' for those who wrote them. If it's 'hard work' for you, you should try a different hobby. No, you don't. Go read the published notebooks of any great poets and see how much work goes into it. Go listen to/read poets talk about the craft of writing poetry and understand how much of it is like putting together a puzzle. Teens are inspired to write poetry, but teens almost always lack the skill to know how to fully express that inspiration in the craft. Yeah, Keats famously talked about "words flowing through him," but his notebooks tell a different tale given how much editing he did. So whatever "inspiration" he may have had in the moment was heavily tempered by thoughtful craft afterward; and even much of his "inspiration" came from the study of Shakespeare's sonnets and his critique of what he felt worked and didn't work in them. So even "inspiration" is, in large part, tied to an understanding of the craft of poetry itself. The notion that the best poems ever written weren't "hard work" is just sheer ignorance, and plain false. But I know this combination of ignorance expressed as falsities is kinda your thing. All the best poets didn't think of it as 'hard work'. They loved it.
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Post by Cinemachinery on Dec 3, 2019 3:34:47 GMT
Samples: "Someone's knocking at the door...somebody's ringing the bell. Someone's knocking at the door, somebody's ringing the bell. Do me a favor -- open the door and let them in." "Obla di, obla da, life goes on, yeah, lalalala life goes on." Now post the lyrics of some of your hits that have been remembered for decades. Three things here: 1) Offering a comparison of three incredible song writers with large catalogs based on a couple of lines from two songs is the OP boxing right at their fighting weight. Just some really sharp-edged analysis, there. 2) Discounting any song due to simple lyrics or nonsense phrasing reminds me of the exchange between Faulkner and Hemingway, wherein Hemingway skewered him aptly with “Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words?” Some of the most legendary, impactful and firmly-culturally-cemented works have revolved around simple phrases, imagery, and even nonsense. Saying it’s not “deep” (ugh) in nature betrays more a shallowness on the listener’s end. 3) “Obla di, obla da” is a fucking joyous, mood-changing bop, Only people dead inside fail to tap their foot and grin.
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Post by Cinemachinery on Dec 3, 2019 3:37:37 GMT
I'm going to call BS on you knowing the first thing about how to measure "depth" in poetry or lyrics. I used to read poetry all the time, and even wrote poetry when I was high school and in my 20s. Please, in the name of all that is holy, grace us with a sample of this undoubtedly deep poetry. I do love a good turn of phrase. Let’s see those chops.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2019 3:46:23 GMT
Song lyrics are almost never as deep as actual poetry, and that's as it should be. I'm not sure if I agree with that. I suppose I could if it's being read/spoken, but singing a poem can enhance its depth, and in some cases, even create it. Delivery is important, especially in the arena of poetry and lyrics.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2019 3:47:32 GMT
I used to read poetry all the time, and even wrote poetry when I was high school and in my 20s. Please, in the name of all that is holy, grace us with a sample of this undoubtedly deep poetry. I do love a good turn of phrase. Let’s see those chops. I call this one "My House"... Cat hair Everywhere Thank you, good night. ps. Suck it, Paul.
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Post by Cinemachinery on Dec 3, 2019 3:52:43 GMT
Please, in the name of all that is holy, grace us with a sample of this undoubtedly deep poetry. I do love a good turn of phrase. Let’s see those chops. I call this one "My House"... Cat hair Everywhere Thank you, good night. ps. Suck it, Paul. *snaps fingers approvingly*
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Post by Cinemachinery on Dec 3, 2019 3:59:02 GMT
Song lyrics are almost never as deep as actual poetry, and that's as it should be. I'm not sure if I agree with that. I suppose I could if it's being read/spoken, but singing a poem can enhance its depth, and in some cases, even create it. Delivery is important, especially in the arena of poetry and lyrics. Made me think of a lot of old Irish airs. Basically sung poetry. Some of them discard meter entirely; it’s just lyrical storytelling that meanders in and out of time signatures. Strip the music away and it’s still incredible verse, but singing it enhances it. I think the spoken word leaves a lot more of the emotional interpretation up to the listener. Singers tend to tint it with their own feels.
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Post by Admin on Dec 3, 2019 4:05:13 GMT
I'm not sure if I agree with that. I suppose I could if it's being read/spoken, but singing a poem can enhance its depth, and in some cases, even create it. Delivery is important, especially in the arena of poetry and lyrics. Made me think of a lot of old Irish airs. Basically sung poetry. Some of them discard meter entirely; it’s just lyrical storytelling that meanders in and out of time signatures. Strip the music away and it’s still incredible verse, but singing it enhances it. I think the spoken word leaves a lot more of the emotional interpretation up to the listener. Singers tend to tint it with their own feels. Well, even the poetry itself can be stripped of its crucial element without changing the story: "Romeo, Romeo, wherefore art thou?" vs. "Hey, where you at?"
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Post by BATouttaheck on Dec 3, 2019 4:07:55 GMT
My dad considered himself to be a "poet" … he was not ! He would corral anyone who came to the house and read his works AT them. This has been an interesting and quite informative discussion and I thank you for it … BUT, it's in prose ! sorry ! That's how it goes.
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Post by heeeeey on Dec 3, 2019 5:30:54 GMT
Now post the lyrics of some of your hits that have been remembered for decades. Three things here: 1) Offering a comparison of three incredible song writers with large catalogs based on a couple of lines from two songs is the OP boxing right at their fighting weight. Just some really sharp-edged analysis, there. 2) Discounting any song due to simple lyrics or nonsense phrasing reminds me of the exchange between Faulkner and Hemingway, wherein Hemingway skewered him aptly with “Poor Faulkner. Does he really think big emotions come from big words?” Some of the most legendary, impactful and firmly-culturally-cemented works have revolved around simple phrases, imagery, and even nonsense. Saying it’s not “deep” (ugh) in nature betrays more a shallowness on the listener’s end. 3) “Obla di, obla da” is a fucking joyous, mood-changing bop, Only people dead inside fail to tap their foot and grin. It was John Lennon who said Paul was a dumbass who simply had a knack for coming up with catchy tunes. Who am I to disagree with John Lennon? Lennon also hated that Obla Di song.
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Post by heeeeey on Dec 3, 2019 5:40:38 GMT
I used to read poetry all the time, and even wrote poetry when I was high school and in my 20s. Please, in the name of all that is holy, grace us with a sample of this undoubtedly deep poetry. I do love a good turn of phrase. Let’s see those chops. I'm not a masochist. You just want to ridicule them, regardless of how good they are.
My poems were written from inspiration and from my heart -- not by textbook instructions or to mimic/copy other poets' writing. They were not written from 'hard work'. Inspiration flows. It's not forced or drawn out of a textbook.
There are people who are captured by the first line, or maybe even the first word of a poem, and that makes them want to read the entire poem.
Did you read all of Yojimbo's poem? Why don't give us your astute critique of it?
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Dec 3, 2019 5:42:35 GMT
There once was a man from Nantucket
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Post by dianachristensen on Dec 3, 2019 6:15:29 GMT
Samples: "Someone's knocking at the door...somebody's ringing the bell. Someone's knocking at the door, somebody's ringing the bell. Do me a favor -- open the door and let them in." "Obla di, obla da, life goes on, yeah, lalalala life goes on." Something tells me John and George wrote the deep stuff. Some Beatles songs which I love for their lyrics: Norwegian Wood - John Lennon She Came In Through the Bathroom Window - Paul McCartney A Day in the Life - John Lennon Eleanor Rigby - Paul McCartney Rocky Raccoon - Paul McCartney In My Life - John Lennon
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