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Post by clusium on Jan 18, 2020 0:50:00 GMT
Not a potential human life. It IS a human life, & has a right to live it, just as much as you or I. Live it how and to what means? It is growing and thriving, just as all other living human beings.
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Post by clusium on Jan 18, 2020 1:11:43 GMT
It is growing and thriving, just as all other living human beings. It is developing into something that if terminated wasn't meant to be. Who are you to say otherwise. Those that are sentient, try to grow and thrive and then God strikes many of them down. How dare he! It is developing into something that nobody has the right to terminate. Who are you to think they have no right to life.
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Post by goz on Jan 18, 2020 2:11:47 GMT
Live it how and to what means? It is growing and thriving, just as all other living human beings. So why did your God kill mine?
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Post by mystery on Jan 18, 2020 2:56:15 GMT
She apparently got pregnant while the father-to-be was still married to another woman. And this is her choosing when to have a child and with whom? Alrighty then.
I don't think abortion is a good thing, but if people are too stupid and irresponsible to use birth control (and use it correctly), then I don't really want them to procreate anyway. JMO.
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Post by OldSamVimes on Jan 18, 2020 4:19:30 GMT
She apparently got pregnant while the father-to-be was still married to another woman. And this is her choosing when to have a child and with whom? Alrighty then. I don't think abortion is a good thing, but if people are too stupid and irresponsible to use birth control (and use it correctly), then I don't really want them to procreate anyway. JMO. Absurd! There is no fail safe way to guard against pregnancy, even if using birth control properly. I think my vasectomy is pretty foolproof. I bet I could have sex with 100 virgins and not get a single one pregnant. Maybe even 1000!
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Post by goz on Jan 18, 2020 4:23:06 GMT
Absurd! There is no fail safe way to guard against pregnancy, even if using birth control properly. I think my vasectomy is pretty foolproof. I bet I could have sex with 100 virgins and not get a single one pregnant. Maybe even 1000! 1000? Then you are at risk of making ten pregnant over five years, www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/news/20040505/vasectomies-pregnancy-preventionHow reckless of you!
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Post by clusium on Jan 18, 2020 4:43:45 GMT
It is developing into something that nobody has the right to terminate. Who are you to think they have no right to life. Who are you to think another sentient being doesn't have the right to make her own decisions about the right to her own life and how it pans out? Nobody is saying that she doesn't have a right to maker own decisions in life, so long as it doesn't include the taking of another life.
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Post by goz on Jan 18, 2020 4:54:35 GMT
Who are you to think another sentient being doesn't have the right to make her own decisions about the right to her own life and how it pans out? Nobody is saying that she doesn't have a right to maker own decisions in life, so long as it doesn't include the taking of another life. It is only a potential life if nothing goes wrong and/or your God doesn't kill it.
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Post by clusium on Jan 18, 2020 5:03:24 GMT
Nobody is saying that she doesn't have a right to maker own decisions in life, so long as it doesn't include the taking of another life. It is only a potential life if nothing goes wrong and/or your God doesn't kill it. No it is a life. Same with the children that you had lost.
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Post by goz on Jan 18, 2020 5:05:27 GMT
It is only a potential life if nothing goes wrong and/or your God doesn't kill it. No it is a life. Same with the children that you had lost. Thanks for that. It makes me feel heaps better about losing five children. Luckily I see it in the same way as abortion due to the fact they were only potential lives, otherwise it is too sad.
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Post by clusium on Jan 18, 2020 5:12:56 GMT
No it is a life. Same with the children that you had lost. Thanks for that. It makes me feel heaps better about losing five children. Luckily I see it in the same way as abortion due to the fact they were only potential lives, otherwise it is too sad. As I told you in my previous post, my maternal grandparents lost 3 children (1 of them was only 6 weeks old).
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Post by phludowin on Jan 18, 2020 10:35:04 GMT
Along with the rest of your narrow sighted prejudices. It is a POTENTIAL human life that is not relevant to you, anyone else nor this God thing you worship. Not a potential human life. It IS a human life Yes. No. just as much as you or I. Wrong.
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Post by clusium on Jan 18, 2020 14:45:08 GMT
Nobody is saying that she doesn't have a right to maker own decisions in life, so long as it doesn't include the taking of another life. So then according to your logic, she doesn't have the right to make her own decisions because of your dogmatic, ignorant and pigheaded perspective. How dare you want to control other women creep! She has a right to make her own decisions. What she should not have the right to do is kill. Abortion is infanticide.
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Post by clusium on Jan 18, 2020 14:46:33 GMT
No it is a life. Same with the children that you had lost. If a child is lost, how is it a life? It wasn't birthed bozo..... They were conceived, Moron, hence they were alive.
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Post by clusium on Jan 18, 2020 16:02:10 GMT
She has a right to make her own decisions. What she should not have the right to do is kill. Abortion is infanticide. According to whose law? Are you attempting to defend your dogma and ignorance again. God's Law. Thou shalt not kill.
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Post by clusium on Jan 18, 2020 16:04:49 GMT
They were conceived, Moron, hence they were alive. Alive where and conceived by whom and to what adverse affect does it impact upon your own life you simpleminded twit? Alive in this world. Just the same as you & I. My own life might not be impacted, but, the abortion impacts the unborn child. His/her life has been taken from him/her. Exactly the same as if he/she had got to be born, but, some asshole took their life. Or, do you not care about murder victims AFTER they are born either?!?!?!
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Post by clusium on Jan 18, 2020 17:12:07 GMT
God's Law. Thou shalt not kill. First, you would have to present your God before me to provide solid factual evidence that this God thing of yours does actually exist and did make this law. When you have done that, I will then ask it what the sub clauses and sub texts are behind the law and who does it think it is above all others. Otherwise, you will just have to rely on current secular human rights legislation that is practical, effective and contains both common sense and rationale. When are you going to grow up, wake up or both? I do not have to anything of the sort. You asked who's law, & I answered. God's Commandment Thou shalt not kill already is part of the Criminal Code. If you were to stab your neighbour from across the street to death, you're ass would be thrown in jail. Why? Because you took a human life. That is what the unborn is: A human life.
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Post by clusium on Jan 18, 2020 17:13:16 GMT
Alive in this world. Just the same as you & I. My own life might not be impacted, but, the abortion impacts the unborn child. His/her life has been taken from him/her. Exactly the same as if he/she had got to be born, but, some asshole took their life. Or, do you not care about murder victims AFTER they are born either?!?!?! Life in what form or sense, if it doesn’t exist? What is existence? Do you even understand your own life, yet you are attempting to defend a delusion? If I hear of a murder victim, it would also depend on the circumstance as to how I may feel about it. Unless it has impacted upon my own life, your question is too simplistic, redundant and moot. It is HUMAN life. It has existence. A sperm entered an ovum & new human life has begun.
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Post by goz on Jan 18, 2020 20:58:20 GMT
Life in what form or sense, if it doesn’t exist? What is existence? Do you even understand your own life, yet you are attempting to defend a delusion? If I hear of a murder victim, it would also depend on the circumstance as to how I may feel about it. Unless it has impacted upon my own life, your question is too simplistic, redundant and moot. It is HUMAN life. It has existence. A sperm entered an ovum & new human life has begun. Here is how ( because of my own experiences I guess) I feel about this difficult question. When a sperm enters an ovum a potential human life is started. It is estimated that billions of fertilised eggs never become humans. It is quite frankly NOT that simple. Some don't implant, some are imperfect some last for a while growing, and many many miscarry. IMHO there is a period when either (your God) or nature sorts out the best option for a successful human life. To me the important thing is that the fittest survive, just like a mini version of evolution. ALL of these potential humans are vulnerable to all kinds of problems in becoming a healthy newborn. I believe that there is some sense in the practical decision by many couples of waiting three months or about 12 weeks before they announce that they are indeed pregnant and expecting to have a baby with some degree of certainty. At and before this stage, the zygote/ foetus is not sentient, cannot live outside of the womb and is only a potential human being despite having all the DNA and physical possibilities to be come a human infant. IMHO it is at this stage where, just like God and nature, a woman can choose whether she wants to harbour and give birth to another human being. She may have a zillion things to consider and frankly it is not anyone else's business ( except perhaps her partner though he doesn't have to carry a child and undertake the physical and emotion burden,) if that is what it is to a potential mother. To sum up. IF in this day and age, we have the knowledge to make informed decisions that supercede your God/nature then we should use it to the betterment of human society and the health and happiness of living humans. ( which is why I am so critical of the Catholic Church's stance on contraception and new reproductive technologies) allowing the woman to have the choice of when, how and who she reproduces with. I ask you, what fundamentally is the difference between a natural/ God induced or mother induced termination of this 'potential' life? The church's morals? The antiquated view of human reproduction? Just as you have no right to impose your religion on others, you really have no right to impose your personal morals on others who have a more pragmatic, scientific and modern view of a difficult situation. Times HAVE changed. Women now are moving towards true equality and most work outside of the home. How can a young woman establish any type of career should contraceptives fail, or she has unwilling sex or any number of other scenarios? She is the one alive and having her life potentially ruined or at least changed forever with the total responsibility of motherhood. So basically, as long as the foetus is not sentient and cannot live outside the mother, then there is little difference between a natural miscarriage and an abortion, and most women take this decision very seriously. It is not helpful when religious people add guilt to a woman's decision with your uninformed and obstinate pro-life propaganda.
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Post by clusium on Jan 18, 2020 23:55:05 GMT
It is HUMAN life. It has existence. A sperm entered an ovum & new human life has begun. Here is how ( because of my own experiences I guess) I feel about this difficult question. When a sperm enters an ovum a potential human life is started. It is estimated that billions of fertilised eggs never become humans. It is quite frankly NOT that simple. Some don't implant, some are imperfect some last for a while growing, and many many miscarry. IMHO there is a period when either (your God) or nature sorts out the best option for a successful human life. To me the important thing is that the fittest survive, just like a mini version of evolution. ALL of these potential humans are vulnerable to all kinds of problems in becoming a healthy newborn. I believe that there is some sense in the practical decision by many couples of waiting three months or about 12 weeks before they announce that they are indeed pregnant and expecting to have a baby with some degree of certainty. At and before this stage, the zygote/ foetus is not sentient, cannot live outside of the womb and is only a potential human being despite having all the DNA and physical possibilities to be come a human infant. IMHO it is at this stage where, just like God and nature, a woman can choose whether she wants to harbour and give birth to another human being. She may have a zillion things to consider and frankly it is not anyone else's business ( except perhaps her partner though he doesn't have to carry a child and undertake the physical and emotion burden,) if that is what it is to a potential mother. To sum up. IF in this day and age, we have the knowledge to make informed decisions that supercede your God/nature then we should use it to the betterment of human society and the health and happiness of living humans. ( which is why I am so critical of the Catholic Church's stance on contraception and new reproductive technologies) allowing the woman to have the choice of when, how and who she reproduces with. I ask you, what fundamentally is the difference between a natural/ God induced or mother induced termination of this 'potential' life? The church's morals? The antiquated view of human reproduction? Just as you have no right to impose your religion on others, you really have no right to impose your personal morals on others who have a more pragmatic, scientific and modern view of a difficult situation. Times HAVE changed. Women now are moving towards true equality and most work outside of the home. How can a young woman establish any type of career should contraceptives fail, or she has unwilling sex or any number of other scenarios? She is the one alive and having her life potentially ruined or at least changed forever with the total responsibility of motherhood. So basically, as long as the foetus is not sentient and cannot live outside the mother, then there is little difference between a natural miscarriage and an abortion, and most women take this decision very seriously. It is not helpful when religious people add guilt to a woman's decision with your uninformed and obstinate pro-life propaganda. Yes, many pregnancies miscarry. Some even miscarry right before being born (stillborn). This fact is very, very, sad. But so is the fact that even if or when the baby IS born, there is still a very high likelihood that the baby may die somehow. Just as you cited your past miscarriages, I pointed out that my maternal grandparents had 3 small children who died, & one of them at the tender age of 6 weeks. Likewise, on my father's side of the family, I had 2 cousins (they were siblings) that died both in their mid to late teens. The difference between a natural/God induced or mother (& even the father) induced termination is that in the case of the latter, it is killing her (& his) own child. It is exactly the same difference as a natural/God induced death of a baby or a very young child and a mother and/or father killing the baby or child. True equality should not mean the right to take any life, be they born or unborn. Pro lifers are not blind or stupid. They know that many people who choose abortion feel they have no other option. There are NUMEROUS causes & charities which help such parents in those types of desperate need. I even posted one such charity, right here on this topic thread, a few posts back: Rosalie Hall, which is right here in the Toronto area.
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