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Post by clusium on Jan 18, 2020 23:57:21 GMT
I do not have to anything of the sort. You asked who's law, & I answered. God's Commandment Thou shalt not kill already is part of the Criminal Code. If you were to stab your neighbour from across the street to death, you're ass would be thrown in jail. Why? Because you took a human life. That is what the unborn is: A human life. Yes you do, because it is your argument of "thou shall not kill" and that God HAD SAID IT, so abortions are not allowed. Are you saying that because of the criminal code, that man only followed suit from God saying it, when God has not even been proven to exist? How convenient to claim God said this way way back over a millennial ago and proved itself to Moses but no-one else since then. Did Moses have a witness, or did he just fool the rest of the chumps like the CC still does today?
Funny, I have never seen an embryo or fetus walking or crawling around, so it makes me wonder what makes it a sentient birthed human being.
Abortion is killing, hence evil. The criminal code follows the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill.' So, abortion should be treated as no less.
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Post by clusium on Jan 18, 2020 23:59:36 GMT
It is HUMAN life. It has existence. A sperm entered an ovum & new human life has begun. This is you..."It is, it is, wah wah wah! It lives, it lives, wah wah wah!".... Why are you so desperately concerned about having others see you as so caring and compassionate and why are you so ridiculous to see yourself as a savior of others? Again, I suggest you mind your own business over something that is of ABSOLUTELY no concern to you, unless someone asks for your warped moral input to be projected on them about what they should do with their lives. Michelle Williams allowed herself to be given over to other people's opinions, when she proudly thanked an abortion for a huge hunk of gold in her arms on national television.
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Post by goz on Jan 19, 2020 0:02:27 GMT
Here is how ( because of my own experiences I guess) I feel about this difficult question. When a sperm enters an ovum a potential human life is started. It is estimated that billions of fertilised eggs never become humans. It is quite frankly NOT that simple. Some don't implant, some are imperfect some last for a while growing, and many many miscarry. IMHO there is a period when either (your God) or nature sorts out the best option for a successful human life. To me the important thing is that the fittest survive, just like a mini version of evolution. ALL of these potential humans are vulnerable to all kinds of problems in becoming a healthy newborn. I believe that there is some sense in the practical decision by many couples of waiting three months or about 12 weeks before they announce that they are indeed pregnant and expecting to have a baby with some degree of certainty. At and before this stage, the zygote/ foetus is not sentient, cannot live outside of the womb and is only a potential human being despite having all the DNA and physical possibilities to be come a human infant. IMHO it is at this stage where, just like God and nature, a woman can choose whether she wants to harbour and give birth to another human being. She may have a zillion things to consider and frankly it is not anyone else's business ( except perhaps her partner though he doesn't have to carry a child and undertake the physical and emotion burden,) if that is what it is to a potential mother. To sum up. IF in this day and age, we have the knowledge to make informed decisions that supercede your God/nature then we should use it to the betterment of human society and the health and happiness of living humans. ( which is why I am so critical of the Catholic Church's stance on contraception and new reproductive technologies) allowing the woman to have the choice of when, how and who she reproduces with. I ask you, what fundamentally is the difference between a natural/ God induced or mother induced termination of this 'potential' life? The church's morals? The antiquated view of human reproduction? Just as you have no right to impose your religion on others, you really have no right to impose your personal morals on others who have a more pragmatic, scientific and modern view of a difficult situation. Times HAVE changed. Women now are moving towards true equality and most work outside of the home. How can a young woman establish any type of career should contraceptives fail, or she has unwilling sex or any number of other scenarios? She is the one alive and having her life potentially ruined or at least changed forever with the total responsibility of motherhood. So basically, as long as the foetus is not sentient and cannot live outside the mother, then there is little difference between a natural miscarriage and an abortion, and most women take this decision very seriously. It is not helpful when religious people add guilt to a woman's decision with your uninformed and obstinate pro-life propaganda. Yes, many pregnancies miscarry. Some even miscarry right before being born (stillborn). This fact is very, very, sad. But so is the fact that even if or when the baby IS born, there is still a very high likelihood that the baby may die somehow. Just as you cited your past miscarriages, I pointed out that my maternal grandparents had 3 small children who died, & one of them at the tender age of 6 weeks. Likewise, on my father's side of the family, I had 2 cousins (they were siblings) that died both in their mid to late teens. The difference between a natural/God induced or mother (& even the father) induced termination is that in the case of the latter, it is killing her (& his) own child. It is exactly the same difference as a natural/God induced death of a baby or a very young child and a mother and/or father killing the baby or child. True equality should not mean the right to take any life, be they born or unborn. Pro lifers are not blind or stupid. They know that many people who choose abortion feel they have no other option. There are NUMEROUS causes & charities which help such parents in those types of desperate need. I even posted one such charity, right here on this topic thread, a few posts back: Rosalie Hall, which is right here in the Toronto area. We are not discussing childhood mortality. WE are discussing the death of foetuses before they are vital. Do NOT conflate the two. That is the WHOLE point.
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Post by clusium on Jan 19, 2020 0:14:01 GMT
Abortion is killing, hence evil. The criminal code follows the commandment 'Thou shalt not kill.' So, abortion should be treated as no less. You are still evading the question, with your own ignorance about what others choose to do with their lives. The criminal code also recognizes the subtext behind any killing and for what purpose or motive. This however, is largely a code for "sentient" human beings, not in regards to how a woman regards her pregnancy, which rightfully becomes another entity regarding human rights for the pregnant person. Your anti-abortion stance is archaic, insidious, duplicitous, asinine and ridiculous, especially when associated with your wicked church. I suggest you get a reality check, before your God gets wind of how you and the CC have perverted its teachings and have become evil. I'm not evading any question. The unborn ARE sentient beings. They are human and have a right to life.
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Post by clusium on Jan 19, 2020 0:14:58 GMT
Yes, many pregnancies miscarry. Some even miscarry right before being born (stillborn). This fact is very, very, sad. But so is the fact that even if or when the baby IS born, there is still a very high likelihood that the baby may die somehow. Just as you cited your past miscarriages, I pointed out that my maternal grandparents had 3 small children who died, & one of them at the tender age of 6 weeks. Likewise, on my father's side of the family, I had 2 cousins (they were siblings) that died both in their mid to late teens. The difference between a natural/God induced or mother (& even the father) induced termination is that in the case of the latter, it is killing her (& his) own child. It is exactly the same difference as a natural/God induced death of a baby or a very young child and a mother and/or father killing the baby or child. True equality should not mean the right to take any life, be they born or unborn. Pro lifers are not blind or stupid. They know that many people who choose abortion feel they have no other option. There are NUMEROUS causes & charities which help such parents in those types of desperate need. I even posted one such charity, right here on this topic thread, a few posts back: Rosalie Hall, which is right here in the Toronto area. We are not discussing childhood mortality. WE are discussing the death of foetuses before they are vital. Do NOT conflate the two. That is the WHOLE point. There is no difference between the death of a child before they are born and after they are born. THAT is the whole point.
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Post by clusium on Jan 19, 2020 0:16:08 GMT
Michelle Williams allowed herself to be given over to other people's opinions, when she proudly thanked an abortion for a huge hunk of gold in her arms on national television. Williams is her own person and has her own reasons. You have no understanding of her personal relationship\s. I have already commented that she need not have mentioned it, she is a narcissist, however, she has every right to defend complete and total autonomy over her own body, unfettered by stupid ignorant twits that think that they can tell women what to do with their lives and legislate it. It will not change a darn thing, just like humans don't pay any attention to a commandment and still murder, cheat and lie. God's law, man's law, the only "true" and "authentic" law is to be found within ones own personal journey and empowerment. So, the fact that murders do occur, the rest of the world shouldn't care? Should murder be taken out of the criminal code?
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Post by goz on Jan 19, 2020 0:23:09 GMT
We are not discussing childhood mortality. WE are discussing the death of foetuses before they are vital. Do NOT conflate the two. That is the WHOLE point. There is no difference between the death of a child before they are born and after they are born. THAT is the whole point. Yes. There is. The reason is that a zygote is not a child. A foetus is not a child. A dead baby in utero is not a child. A miscarried baby is not and never was a child only a potential child. A live baby (after the zygote and foetal stages) is ONLY a child if it is born alive.
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Post by goz on Jan 19, 2020 0:24:34 GMT
I'm not evading any question. The unborn ARE sentient beings. They are human and have a right to life. How are they sentient, they aren't breathing CO2? They are still being hosted and nourished by the mother. Sweetpea. It is oxygen that people and babies breathe and exhale CO2.
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Post by clusium on Jan 19, 2020 0:59:19 GMT
So, the fact that murders do occur, the rest of the world shouldn't care? Should murder be taken out of the criminal code? Whoosh! Way to miss a point bozo. The fact that you don't really care, how do you think you can pretend to project to others that you do care without being so transparent and inane? If I didn't care, I wouldn't be arguing with you (or anybody else) on this topic thread right now. You're the one who really doesn't care about the cause. Only think you are standing up for women, but, are not, in reality.
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Post by clusium on Jan 19, 2020 1:00:23 GMT
There is no difference between the death of a child before they are born and after they are born. THAT is the whole point. I suggest you back to grade 1 start over and enhance your education, preferably one that isn't a religious school. Do you know what the irony is with your post, Toasty? I only spent 2 YEARS in a religious school, & even when my parents did enrol me, getting a Catholic education wasn't the reason why.
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Post by goz on Jan 19, 2020 1:07:12 GMT
There is no difference between the death of a child before they are born and after they are born. THAT is the whole point. I suggest you back to grade 1 start over and enhance your education, preferably one that isn't a religious school. Maybe re-think this comment re the whole CO2 thing?
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Post by goz on Jan 19, 2020 1:08:10 GMT
Tell me.
Do you support women's rights?
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Post by clusium on Jan 19, 2020 1:54:01 GMT
If I didn't care, I wouldn't be arguing with you (or anybody else) on this topic thread right now. You're the one who really doesn't care about the cause. Only think you are standing up for women, but, are not, in reality. You only care about your side of the argument, which is wrongheaded, deluded and dense. I don't buy into bulls<>t. You are pretending to care about something that is abstract and intangible and isn't even real, yet think you are being so compassionate and understanding and that people will have some "special" image of how virtuous you are. You sound like a troll to me.
I couldn't care less if a woman has an abortion or not, but my gist is at the very least, to stand up for the basic right of choice for those that have every right to make their own decisions regarding their bodies and already sentient life if pregnant. If I was a woman, I wouldn't want some crackpot loon Catholic, telling me what I should do, or condemning me for a decision that has absolutely f<>k all to do with you, or your life. As a woman, you should also know better.
The only troll I see around here is YOU, Toasty!!!! I care if people have abortions because I care if/when a baby dies. Abortion = infanticide, & the world will be a far greater place, when everyone accepts that reality.
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Post by clusium on Jan 19, 2020 1:56:46 GMT
Do you know what the irony is with your post, Toasty? I only spent 2 YEARS in a religious school, & even when my parents did enrol me, getting a Catholic education wasn't the reason why. So those 2 years did impact on you and brainwash you then. That said, you are such a chump, that it would be easy to indoctrinate you into the ways of deceit, lies and delusion. That is what the CC stands for to get its herd followers to give them more evil power. What a stooge you have been. Just because I disagree with your ignorant position on abortion you call ME a chump?!?!?! You value nothing of human life, all the while PRETENDING to stand up for females. You do no such thing.
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Post by goz on Jan 19, 2020 1:57:16 GMT
You only care about your side of the argument, which is wrongheaded, deluded and dense. I don't buy into bulls<>t. You are pretending to care about something that is abstract and intangible and isn't even real, yet think you are being so compassionate and understanding and that people will have some "special" image of how virtuous you are. You sound like a troll to me.
I couldn't care less if a woman has an abortion or not, but my gist is at the very least, to stand up for the basic right of choice for those that have every right to make their own decisions regarding their bodies and already sentient life if pregnant. If I was a woman, I wouldn't want some crackpot loon Catholic, telling me what I should do, or condemning me for a decision that has absolutely f<>k all to do with you, or your life. As a woman, you should also know better.
The only troll I see around here is YOU, Toasty!!!! I care if people have abortions because I care if/when a baby dies. Abortion = infanticide, & the world will be a far greater place, when everyone accepts that reality. You only care about your side of the argument, which is wrongheaded, deluded and dense. I don't buy into bulls<>t. You are pretending to care about something that is abstract and intangible and isn't even real, yet think you are being so compassionate and understanding and that people will have some "special" image of how virtuous you are. You sound like a troll to me.
I couldn't care less if a woman has an abortion or not, but my gist is at the very least, to stand up for the basic right of choice for those that have every right to make their own decisions regarding their bodies and already sentient life if pregnant. If I was a woman, I wouldn't want some crackpot loon Catholic, telling me what I should do, or condemning me for a decision that has absolutely f<>k all to do with you, or your life. As a woman, you should also know better.
The only troll I see around here is YOU, Toasty!!!! I care if people have abortions because I care if/when a baby dies. Abortion = infanticide, & the world will be a far greater place, when everyone accepts that reality. No. Abortion is not infanticide for the reasons I have given that you have not bothered to debate because you actually can't. sorry for the double post. ..computer probs
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Post by clusium on Jan 19, 2020 1:58:23 GMT
The only troll I see around here is YOU, Toasty!!!! I care if people have abortions because I care if/when a baby dies. Abortion = infanticide, & the world will be a far greater place, when everyone accepts that reality. The only troll I see around here is YOU, Toasty!!!! I care if people have abortions because I care if/when a baby dies. Abortion = infanticide, & the world will be a far greater place, when everyone accepts that reality. No. Abortion is not infanticide for the reasons I have given that you have not bothered to debate because you actually can't. Yes it is infanticide. Abortion kills babies.
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Post by goz on Jan 19, 2020 1:59:51 GMT
No. Abortion is not infanticide for the reasons I have given that you have not bothered to debate because you actually can't. Yes it is infanticide. Abortion kills babies. NO. It isn't. It kills potential babies that are naturally at risk anyway. edit: NO_ONE let alone their mothers wish to kill 'babies'. That you can't 'get this, is kinda sad. As a mother who had potential babies killed without my permission this is fucking obvious.
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Post by clusium on Jan 19, 2020 2:00:31 GMT
The only troll I see around here is YOU, Toasty!!!! I care if people have abortions because I care if/when a baby dies. Abortion = infanticide, & the world will be a far greater place, when everyone accepts that reality. No you don't! Even humans don't care properly for other already birthed humans. Stop pretending and playing games with yourself. It is not going to get you to heaven any sooner, in fact, someone as deceitful and phony as you will likely be going to the other place. You don't even understand the concept of reality bozo... I don't expect to get to Heaven any sooner. As for going to the other place? Don't you think you might be going there?!?! You're posts have only supported seflishness & self-centredness. Life is not about thinking about one's self. It is all about taking care of one another.
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Post by clusium on Jan 19, 2020 2:01:12 GMT
Yes it is infanticide. Abortion kills babies. NO. It isn't. It kills potential babies that are naturally at risk anyway. Yes it is. They are babies, & the fact that they are naturally at risk doesn't justify killing them.
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Post by goz on Jan 19, 2020 2:03:05 GMT
NO. It isn't. It kills potential babies that are naturally at risk anyway. Yes it is. They are babies, & the fact that they are naturally at risk doesn't justify killing them. They are not babies, they are potential humans with many risks attached to being born.
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