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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jul 11, 2022 2:48:09 GMT
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Post by CrepedCrusader on Jul 11, 2022 5:43:53 GMT
What makes it worse is that they often have to low-ball to get the job. That's why so many vfx companies go broke even while working on huge films.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 5:50:38 GMT
This boycott could lead to crappy effects in the MCU. In other words, nothing will change! Seriously though, Marvel needs to treat their hired employees better. This is a huge issue in the gaming industry as well supposedly.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Jul 11, 2022 12:32:47 GMT
Not surprising. The VFX in NWH were reportedly being worked on down to the wire.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jul 11, 2022 12:55:00 GMT
I'm surprised that VFX Artists never unionized.
Regarding the crunch with Marvel, it's obvious that releasing multiple movies and shows within a year is taking it's toll on not only the people working on them but even the quality of the films and shows themselves.
Maybe it's time for Marvel Studios to cut down on the yearly release and give these projects more time in development.
Yeah I know some people hate waiting for the next Marvel movie or show, but I don't think forcing a crunched work environment is worth getting the next comic book movie out asap.
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Post by politicidal on Jul 12, 2022 3:11:04 GMT
I'm surprised that VFX Artists never unionized. Regarding the crunch with Marvel, it's obvious that releasing multiple movies and shows within a year is taking it's toll on not only the people working on them but even the quality of the films and shows themselves. Maybe it's time for Marvel Studios to cut down on the yearly release and give these projects more time in development.Yeah I know some people hate waiting for the next Marvel movie or show, but I don't think forcing a crunched work environment is worth getting the next comic book movie out asap. But they want the money now!
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jul 26, 2022 21:25:46 GMT
Grab the popcorn boys and girls! This is getting good! I’m a VFX Artist, and I’m Tired of Getting ‘Pixel-F–ked’ by Marvel: "It’s pretty well known and even darkly joked about across all the visual-effects houses that working on Marvel shows is really hard. When I worked on one movie, it was almost six months of overtime every day. I was working seven days a week, averaging 64 hours a week on a good week. Marvel genuinely works you really hard. I’ve had co-workers sit next to me, break down, and start crying. I’ve had people having anxiety attacks on the phone. The studio has a lot of power over the effects houses, just because it has so many blockbuster movies coming out one after the other. If you upset Marvel in any way, there’s a very high chance you’re not going to get those projects in the future. So the effects houses are trying to bend over backward to keep Marvel happy. To get work, the houses bid on a project; they are all trying to come in right under one another’s bids. With Marvel, the bids will typically come in quite a bit under, and Marvel is happy with that relationship, because it saves it money. But what ends up happening is that all Marvel projects tend to be understaffed. Where I would usually have a team of ten VFX artists on a non-Marvel movie, on one Marvel movie, I got two including myself. So every person is doing more work than they need to. The other thing with Marvel is it’s famous for asking for lots of changes throughout the process. So you’re already overworked, but then Marvel’s asking for regular changes way in excess of what any other client does. And some of those changes are really major. Maybe a month or two before a movie comes out, Marvel will have us change the entire third act. It has really tight turnaround times. So yeah, it’s just not a great situation all around. One visual-effects house could not finish the number of shots and reshoots Marvel was asking for in time, so Marvel had to give my studio the work. Ever since, that house has effectively been blacklisted from getting Marvel work. Part of the problem comes from the MCU itself — just the sheer number of movies it has. It sets dates, and it’s very inflexible on those dates; yet it’s quite willing to do reshoots and big changes very close to the dates without shifting them up or down. This is not a new dynamic. I remember going to a presentation by one of the other VFX houses about an early MCU movie, and people were talking about how they were getting “pixel-fucked.” That’s a term we use in the industry when the client will nitpick over every little pixel. Even if you never notice it. A client might say, “This is not exactly what I want,” and you keep working at it. But they have no idea what they want. So they’ll be like, “Can you just try this? Can you just try that?” They’ll want you to change an entire setting, an entire environment, pretty late in a movie. The main problem is most of Marvel’s directors aren’t familiar with working with visual effects. A lot of them have just done little indies at the Sundance Film Festival and have never worked with VFX. They don’t know how to visualize something that’s not there yet, that’s not on set with them. So Marvel often starts asking for what we call “final renders.” As we’re working through a movie, we’ll send work-in-progress images that are not pretty but show where we’re at. Marvel often asks for them to be delivered at a much higher quality very early on, and that takes a lot of time. Marvel does that because its directors don’t know how to look at the rough images early on and make judgment calls. But that is the way the industry has to work. You can’t show something super pretty when the basics are still being fleshed out. The other issue is, when we’re in postproduction, we don’t have a director of photography involved. So we’re coming up with the shots a lot of the time. It causes a lot of incongruity. A good example of what happens in these scenarios is the battle scene at the end of Black Panther. The physics are completely off. Suddenly, the characters are jumping around, doing all these crazy moves like action figures in space. Suddenly, the camera is doing these motions that haven’t happened in the rest of the movie. It all looks a bit cartoony. It has broken the visual language of the film. Things need to change on two ends of the spectrum. Marvel needs to train its directors on working with visual effects and have a better vision out of the gate. The studio needs to hold its directors’ feet to the fire more to commit to what they want. The other thing is unionization. There is a growing movement to do that, because it would help make sure that the VFX houses can’t take bids without having to consider what the impacts would be. Because a lot of the time, it’s like, you get to work on a Marvel show, and you’ll work on that for cheaper just because it’s cool. Some of the problems I mentioned are universal to every show and every project. But you end up doing less overtime on other shows. You end up being able to push back more on the directors. When they say something like, “Hey, I want this,” you can be like, “This doesn’t make sense.” Not every client has the bullying power of Marvel." www.vulture.com/article/a-vfx-artist-on-what-its-like-working-for-marvel.html
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Jul 27, 2022 1:23:16 GMT
When this story broke out, the response to it has been in favor of the VFX artists. But what I found interesting is that there were some people out there who either think the accusations are completely made up or that the VFX are being whiney bitches about their work environment.
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Post by darkpast on Jul 27, 2022 4:55:38 GMT
Disney sucks
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Post by politicidal on Jul 29, 2022 18:02:16 GMT
"...Eight years after the movie's release, the Russo brothers are now defending Captain America: Civil War's visuals and the movie's lack of color."
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Aug 4, 2022 15:50:42 GMT
One of the VFX artist have publicly come forward. Joe Pavlo, who has worked on Guardians of the Galaxy: Emmy Award-winner VFX artist Joe Pavlo spoke about the work environment of the first Guardians of the Galaxy, calling out Marvel Studios' unhealthy practices towards the industry. Pavlo’s interview for The Guardian comes on the heels of multiple VFX artists speaking out against Marvel Studios' unrealistic deadlines and perfectionism, which forces many crew members to overwork themselves for long months. It’s not news that Marvel Studios films and series are highly-depending on VFX works, as every MCU production deals with superpowers, distant settings, and sometimes fully digital characters. So, it’s no wonder that VFX workers are constantly feeling pressured to put up good work and develop amazing digital scenes in record time. However, Marvel Studios and Disney are constantly changing their films and TV shows to conform to early test screenings, marketing research, or just the overall scope of their intertwined cinematic universe. And when that happens, it’s up to VFX artists to race against the clock. As Pavlo explains it: “The visual effects industry is filled with terrific people with lots of goodwill who really care but, at the end of the day, there’s nothing in place when their backs are up against the wall and Disney is making crazy demands. All the goodwill in the world just evaporates when everything gets changed and they decide they’re replacing that character with a different actor or changing the entire environment – they’re now in a pizza restaurant instead of a cornfield. It can be that extreme at the very last minute.” Since Marvel Studios is such a big client in the movie industry, no VFX company wants to get on its bad side, which creates a bullying structure inside the sector. Marvel Studios producers push VFX companies, which redirect the pressure to lower levels, until workers at the bottom of the chain end up overworked, burned out, and with severe mental health issues. In Pavlo’s words: “It can be characterized as bullying but filtered through multiple layers of management and supervisor and hierarchy. It’s not like the executive from Disney is grabbing someone and swearing at them or something like that. It’s more like an atmosphere where everybody feels like this is the most desperately important thing and, if we don’t do it, we’re all fucked. The average artist doesn’t even have any contact with the clients. It’s really just the people at the producer and the supervisor level and then they pass it on to their crew. So you could say, oh, the supervisor’s a real bully, but actually it’s a knock-on effect and then the people who are the team leaders, once they can’t handle it, end up being bullies.” Part of the VFX artist overwork comes from Marvel Studios' lack of planning. As Pavlo reveals, it’s usual to have last-minute changes and multiple versions of the same scene being developed simultaneously. And, of course, these multiple versions still depend on the same understaffed crew. As Pavlo puts it: “Disney-Marvel is very famous for wanting multiple versions running parallel so that they can decide what they want. (...) If you imagine you get the art department to design a set, you wouldn’t get them to tear down the set and rebuild a completely different set 35 times. Because it’s digital, people don’t see it as the same thing but it is: it involves work and creativity and long hours. It doesn’t create itself.” It’s no wonder that VFX artists are discussing unionizing worldwide to fight for fair work conditions that don’t put anyone’s health at risk. As Pavlo underlines, “a strong union would be able to reel that in a bit.” We do hope VFX artists get the recognition they deserve, especially with Marvel Studios' ambitious release schedule through 2026. collider.com/guardians-of-the-galaxy-vfx-artist-marvel-studios-work-environment-joe-pavlo-comments/
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Aug 4, 2022 16:53:05 GMT
One of the VFX artist have publicly come forward. Joe Pavlo, who has worked on Guardians of the Galaxy: Emmy Award-winner VFX artist Joe Pavlo spoke about the work environment of the first Guardians of the Galaxy, calling out Marvel Studios' unhealthy practices towards the industry. Pavlo’s interview for The Guardian comes on the heels of multiple VFX artists speaking out against Marvel Studios' unrealistic deadlines and perfectionism, which forces many crew members to overwork themselves for long months. It’s not news that Marvel Studios films and series are highly-depending on VFX works, as every MCU production deals with superpowers, distant settings, and sometimes fully digital characters. So, it’s no wonder that VFX workers are constantly feeling pressured to put up good work and develop amazing digital scenes in record time. However, Marvel Studios and Disney are constantly changing their films and TV shows to conform to early test screenings, marketing research, or just the overall scope of their intertwined cinematic universe. And when that happens, it’s up to VFX artists to race against the clock. As Pavlo explains it: “The visual effects industry is filled with terrific people with lots of goodwill who really care but, at the end of the day, there’s nothing in place when their backs are up against the wall and Disney is making crazy demands. All the goodwill in the world just evaporates when everything gets changed and they decide they’re replacing that character with a different actor or changing the entire environment – they’re now in a pizza restaurant instead of a cornfield. It can be that extreme at the very last minute.” Since Marvel Studios is such a big client in the movie industry, no VFX company wants to get on its bad side, which creates a bullying structure inside the sector. Marvel Studios producers push VFX companies, which redirect the pressure to lower levels, until workers at the bottom of the chain end up overworked, burned out, and with severe mental health issues. In Pavlo’s words: “It can be characterized as bullying but filtered through multiple layers of management and supervisor and hierarchy. It’s not like the executive from Disney is grabbing someone and swearing at them or something like that. It’s more like an atmosphere where everybody feels like this is the most desperately important thing and, if we don’t do it, we’re all fucked. The average artist doesn’t even have any contact with the clients. It’s really just the people at the producer and the supervisor level and then they pass it on to their crew. So you could say, oh, the supervisor’s a real bully, but actually it’s a knock-on effect and then the people who are the team leaders, once they can’t handle it, end up being bullies.” Part of the VFX artist overwork comes from Marvel Studios' lack of planning. As Pavlo reveals, it’s usual to have last-minute changes and multiple versions of the same scene being developed simultaneously. And, of course, these multiple versions still depend on the same understaffed crew. As Pavlo puts it: “Disney-Marvel is very famous for wanting multiple versions running parallel so that they can decide what they want. (...) If you imagine you get the art department to design a set, you wouldn’t get them to tear down the set and rebuild a completely different set 35 times. Because it’s digital, people don’t see it as the same thing but it is: it involves work and creativity and long hours. It doesn’t create itself.” It’s no wonder that VFX artists are discussing unionizing worldwide to fight for fair work conditions that don’t put anyone’s health at risk. As Pavlo underlines, “a strong union would be able to reel that in a bit.” We do hope VFX artists get the recognition they deserve, especially with Marvel Studios' ambitious release schedule through 2026. collider.com/guardians-of-the-galaxy-vfx-artist-marvel-studios-work-environment-joe-pavlo-comments/Welcome to the real world. "Corporate puts pressure on its employees to make deadlines," is hardly unique to VFX or filmmaking in general.
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Post by Skaathar on Aug 4, 2022 17:56:52 GMT
Anyone with half a brain can see that the MCU has recently been prioritizing quantity over quality, and that's obviously going to make for some really tight deadlines and overworked employees.
That said, it's not really anything new with major corporations. I've worked in massive corporations before and something you realize very quickly is that you're simply one cog in a big machine, and that every cog needs to do its job in a timely manner otherwise the machine will falter. You don't get to request more leeway or extra time or apologize for missing deadlines. You either do the job and meet the deadlines or they replace you and find someone who can do it.
It may sound cold and dispassionate but it's really the only way these massive corporations can function properly. There's way too many moving parts and if they keep giving each one of these parts some slack then it will add up and they'll never meet their schedules on time.
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Post by Hauntedknight87 on Aug 4, 2022 18:15:30 GMT
It's probably for the best for VFX artists to form a big union. Actor's, directors and screenwriters have their own union, why not one for VFX artists? Movies these days rely more and more on CGI, so it's only fitting that VFX artist are taken care of.
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Post by Rey Kahuka on Aug 4, 2022 18:15:32 GMT
Anyone with half a brain can see that the MCU has recently been prioritizing quantity over quality, and that's obviously going to make for some really tight deadlines and overworked employees. That said, it's not really anything new with major corporations. I've worked in massive corporations before and something you realize very quickly is that you're simply one cog in a big machine, and that every cog needs to do its job in a timely manner otherwise the machine will falter. You don't get to request more leeway or extra time or apologize for missing deadlines. You either do the job and meet the deadlines or they replace you and find someone who can do it. It may sound cold and dispassionate but it's really the only way these massive corporations can function properly. There's way too many moving parts and if they keep giving each one of these parts some slack then it will add up and they'll never meet their schedules on time. It's called business. It might be unfair when they want to make wholesale changes so late in the game, but he loses me when he starts using the word 'bullying.' Complain about their scheduling, tell me they're being cheap; but don't tell me they're 'bullying' you into making deadlines.
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Post by thisguy4000 on Aug 4, 2022 18:30:42 GMT
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for VFX workers to want to unionize to ensure that they get treated better.
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Post by Skaathar on Aug 4, 2022 18:53:45 GMT
I don’t think it’s unreasonable for VFX workers to want to unionize to ensure that they get treated better. Just remember that the VFX studios that Marvel generally work with are located across different countries. Not sure how feasible it is to get all the major VFX studios into a global/international union.
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Post by leesilm on Aug 7, 2022 3:28:09 GMT
Marvel might be the big man on campus, but eventually if you burn too many bridges, you end up stuck on an island without a decent road to leave it. I suppose they could always go back to having most everything done in-house instead of farming stuff out like they have been. They'd have contract employees working on the pixels instead of the employees of another company they had a deal with.
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Post by politicidal on Aug 9, 2022 23:02:24 GMT
"I was still kind of nerding out a lot of times, getting to see these movies being made and being part of that whole process. But yeah, there are definitely quite a few long days... The worst was when Avengers: Infinity War and Endgame were coming out. They actually bumped up that release date by a month but they hadn't told us. I remember being on the floor with my team and one of my artists comes to me and says, 'Hey, you see this?' and he shows me the article saying Marvel bumped the release date up a month... So we found out from a press release that we had one less month to work on all these shots."
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Post by CrepedCrusader on Aug 10, 2022 1:51:45 GMT
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