|
|
Post by clusium on Mar 15, 2023 5:20:20 GMT
I have read about religions for years & years. And yes, bread & wine is used in Shabbat rituals. And bread and wine was not used in any temple rituals, but it was used in temple paganism. Judaism has no ritual to consecrate a living God using bread and wine, this practice comes from paganism. Judaism did not honor saints or dared have one prayer to any being other than God Almighty, but the household gods to whom one prayed to say, find lost objects or bless a childbirth was common in paganism. No woman was honored at all in Judaism, but the Virgin Mary was given the same love, respect, and prayer in the same way a goddess would be. Even the notion that God has a mother in the form of the BVM is totally alien to Judaism. Becoming a Christian in those days had little to do with being a part of the Jewish tradition. Melchizedek offered bread & wine to God, when Abraham came to him, so that Melchizedek could give worship to God on his (Abraham's) behalf. Genesis chapter 14, verse 18
And yes, Judaism does have veneration for its holy men & women (called tzaddikim). Jewish Veneration Of Tzaddikim
Rachel the Matriarch to a certain degree, is venerated in Chassidic & Orthodox Judaism, in the same way that the Blessed Virgin Mary is in Catholic & Orthodox Christianity. Chassidic Devotion To Rachel
(Ditto in Shia Islam, they venerate Muhammad's daughter in the same way that we Catholic & Orthodox Christians venerate Mary.) |
|
|
|
Post by paulslaugh on Mar 15, 2023 5:29:46 GMT
Those studies are based on the western population where the overwhelming majority of the religious & spiritual are Christians. A number of the links are only able to be viewed fully by pay per view, but you may be able to find copies of the full studies somewhere online if you look hard enough. Regardless the links show an abundance of positive religious benefits for society.
Not particularly, and there were only ten links, hardly constituting an overwhelming body of research and evidence. That they are Western-based automatically tends to denote bias, so once more, they can hardly be taken as evidence that Christianity is a positive influence on human society overall, and precious little to suggest much more than that the idea of its being such is much more than wishful thinking, backed up by some in various fields (which, in the above sample are more trended towards psychology and sociology than the scientific fields in which there's little to show that Christianity has had much positive impact) who share that bias. This is Triumphalism in that nothing can beat Christianity or Christians in anything. They did everything first, the right way, or better. |
|
|
|
Post by paulslaugh on Mar 15, 2023 5:31:29 GMT
And bread and wine was not used in any temple rituals, but it was used in temple paganism. Judaism has no ritual to consecrate a living God using bread and wine, this practice comes from paganism. Judaism did not honor saints or dared have one prayer to any being other than God Almighty, but the household gods to whom one prayed to say, find lost objects or bless a childbirth was common in paganism. No woman was honored at all in Judaism, but the Virgin Mary was given the same love, respect, and prayer in the same way a goddess would be. Even the notion that God has a mother in the form of the BVM is totally alien to Judaism. Becoming a Christian in those days had little to do with being a part of the Jewish tradition. Melchizedek offered bread & wine to God, when Abraham came to him, so that Melchizedek could give worship to God on his (Abraham's) behalf. Genesis chapter 14, verse 18
And yes, Judaism does have veneration for its holy men & women (called tzaddikim). Jewish Veneration Of Tzaddikim
Rachel the Matriarch to a certain degree, is venerated in Chassidic & Orthodox Judaism, in the same way that the Blessed Virgin Mary is in Catholic & Orthodox Christianity. Chassidic Devotion To Rachel
(Ditto in Shia Islam, they venerate Muhammad's daughter in the same way that we Catholic & Orthodox Christians venerate Mary.) Melchizedek was a Pagan priest at a pagan shrine. And holy woman are not miracle working saints. |
|
|
|
Post by ShadowSouL: Padawan of Yoda on Mar 15, 2023 5:33:05 GMT
There are sectarian traditions within Catholicism: there are seven non-Latin, non-Roman ecclesial traditions: Armenian, Byzantine, Coptic, Ethiopian, East Syriac (Chaldean), West Syriac, and Maronite. Each to the Churches with these non-Latin traditions is as Catholic as the Roman Catholic Church. The very name 'catholic' taken from the adjective meaning "a wide variety of things; all-embracing" reflects this. If you are insisting the Roman Catholic tradition is the only 'true' one, you are involved in a version of No True Scotsman right off the bat. Trying to lay schisms wholly at the feet of the Protestant tradition is an error, but one RC'ers are quite prone to. As for those secular, non-God affiliated movements: Those good teachings that they may have taught would have originally come from religious teachings, such as Christianity, etc.
Wrong again, as any student of philosophy could easily point out. Those sectarian traditions are based on place of origin. Not Biblical interpretation. They still follow the same tenants of the Church. Catholicism & Orthodoxy split in the 10'Th Century. However, their core tenants are pretty much the same.The Church has tenants? And they're rent-free squatters? Drstyx, some editing please. |
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Mar 15, 2023 5:37:56 GMT
Melchizedek offered bread & wine to God, when Abraham came to him, so that Melchizedek could give worship to God on his (Abraham's) behalf. Genesis chapter 14, verse 18
And yes, Judaism does have veneration for its holy men & women (called tzaddikim). Jewish Veneration Of Tzaddikim
Rachel the Matriarch to a certain degree, is venerated in Chassidic & Orthodox Judaism, in the same way that the Blessed Virgin Mary is in Catholic & Orthodox Christianity. Chassidic Devotion To Rachel
(Ditto in Shia Islam, they venerate Muhammad's daughter in the same way that we Catholic & Orthodox Christians venerate Mary.) Melchizedek was a Pagan priest at a pagan shrine. And holy woman are not miracle working saints. Melchizedek worshipped Abraham's God, & is referenced in the 110'Th Psalm. The fact that Rachel did not work any miracle has not prevented her from being venerated by Orthodox Jews. |
|
|
|
Post by ShadowSouL: Padawan of Yoda on Mar 15, 2023 5:37:57 GMT
Then did God create the universe exactly as it is written in the Bible? Yes or no. That has nothing to do with your slanderous claim. Classic avoidance and diversion. Maybe the question should be rephrased. Is the Biblical account of creation science or scientific? Does it corroborate with science? Does it employ the scientific method? Are creation scientists scientific and part of the scientific tradition? |
|
|
|
Post by paulslaugh on Mar 15, 2023 7:58:17 GMT
Melchizedek was a Pagan priest at a pagan shrine. And holy woman are not miracle working saints. Melchizedek worshipped Abraham's God, & is referenced in the 110'Th Psalm. The fact that Rachel did not work any miracle has not prevented her from being venerated by Orthodox Jews. If he was worshipping Abraham’s only one God in existence before Abraham, why did God chose Abe’s people over Melchizedek? Looks Mel had his temple on the Temple Mount up and running long before King Solomon took over the spot and built his. |
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Mar 15, 2023 10:57:21 GMT
False. Here is a list of ten differences between the RC and Greek Orthodox church alone (this is not counting the other six variants or sects): www.saintjohnchurch.org/differences-between-orthodox-and-catholic/There are numerous doctrinal differences between just these two, and these include certain interpretations of scripture. Although some core tenets remain the same, there are clearly others that differ fairly broadly. And again, this is only in the split between RC and Orthodox, and does not include likely doctrinal differences in the others as well. There are far more similarities between Catholicism & Orthodoxy, than there are with a great many churches that were formed after the Protestant Reformation. Anglicanism & Lutheranism (which is the original Protestant church)are the closest to Catholicism. That doesn't obviate the fact that there are differences, and significant ones--a fact you initially denied. |
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Mar 15, 2023 11:02:50 GMT
Excellent point, Paul, and one that needed alluding to. Such respect for science as science was derived from pre-Christian societies, and not from anything inhering in Christian thought and belief itself. A huge disrespect for and opposition to science is also a part of Christianity. And an ongoing and disquietingly healthy one, as we see today. Catholics are definitely not exempt from it, either. |
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Mar 15, 2023 11:16:41 GMT
Not particularly, and there were only ten links, hardly constituting an overwhelming body of research and evidence. That they are Western-based automatically tends to denote bias, so once more, they can hardly be taken as evidence that Christianity is a positive influence on human society overall, and precious little to suggest much more than that the idea of its being such is much more than wishful thinking, backed up by some in various fields (which, in the above sample are more trended towards psychology and sociology than the scientific fields in which there's little to show that Christianity has had much positive impact) who share that bias. This is Triumphalism in that nothing can beat Christianity or Christians in anything. They did everything first, the right way, or better. The bottom line here is that Christianity has been such a suffocating blanket over the West for so long, it's difficult for many to visualize a 'good' society which doesn't make it a bedrock component. And one tendency that leads indubitably towards the state we seem to be entering is its production of the type of Christian who can't be content with making his belief a private practice--as I, poor understanding though mine may be, took as meaning Jesus originally intended it--but who firmly believes that the system of belief can't work unless it's essentially forced upon his neighbor to believe it as well. |
|
djorno
Sophomore
@djorno
Posts: 322
Likes: 81
|
Post by djorno on Mar 15, 2023 12:31:08 GMT
Do you think the world would be better now if it died out? The evidence doesn’t support you. |
|
|
|
Post by paulslaugh on Mar 15, 2023 12:41:32 GMT
The evidence doesn’t support you. There is no proof either way, because we can’t change what has happened. I don’t know if the world would be better or worse, but it would be very different. Without Christianity, there would be no Islam. |
|
The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,676
Likes: 1,301
|
Post by The Lost One on Mar 15, 2023 13:23:01 GMT
They all played their part: - Jesus started the thing (assuming Paul based his work on second-hand account of Jesus' teachings and didn't just make it all up himself)- Paul added meat to the bones and encouraged its spread around gentiles in the Roman Empire - Constantine put an end to the intermittent persecutions and made Christianity fashionable amongst the Roman elite I would say Constantine was the least important since Christianity had survived up to that point without his help. Jesus didn't start Christianity. This term was formed by a sect after his death. Yeah that's technically true, but regardless of whether he had a name for his movement or whether he considered it really distinct from mainstream Judaism, it all comes back to Jesus. |
|
|
|
Post by Feologild Oakes on Mar 15, 2023 13:44:37 GMT
I would say that there are 3 people responsible for it, Jesus is not one of them
Paul for spreading Christianity
Constantine The Great for being the first Roman emperor to convert to Christianity, and recognizing that Christianity had become the dominate religion in the Roman empire, in contrast to what people think, Constantin did not make Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire
Theodosius I for making Christianity into the official religion of the Roman empire.
Jesus did not mean to found a new religion, but a new religion did come out of his ministry. But Jesus himself is not responsible for the survival of Christianity.
|
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Mar 15, 2023 14:07:49 GMT
There are far more similarities between Catholicism & Orthodoxy, than there are with a great many churches that were formed after the Protestant Reformation. Anglicanism & Lutheranism (which is the original Protestant church)are the closest to Catholicism. That doesn't obviate the fact that there are differences, and significant ones--a fact you initially denied. And still deny. They are not anywhere as different as let's say, the JWs, Pentecostals, Mormons, SDAs, Christian Science, Baptist, etc. The Orthodox believe in Apostolic Succession, just as Catholicism does. The Orthodox venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary, in the same way that Catholicism does (Anglicanism, & maybe Lutheranism are the only Protestant churches to venerate Mary). The Orthodox have 7 Sacraments, just as Catholicism does (the vast majority of Protestants, with the noted exceptions of the 2 afore-mentioned ones, have only 2 sacraments). The Orthodox only ordain men as priests, just as Catholicism does. The Orthodox have monks & nuns, just as Catholicism does. |
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Mar 15, 2023 14:09:08 GMT
Melchizedek worshipped Abraham's God, & is referenced in the 110'Th Psalm. The fact that Rachel did not work any miracle has not prevented her from being venerated by Orthodox Jews. If he was worshipping Abraham’s only one God in existence before Abraham, why did God chose Abe’s people over Melchizedek? Looks Mel had his temple on the Temple Mount up and running long before King Solomon took over the spot and built his. Why not? Abraham certainly believed that Melchizedek worshipped his God, otherwise, he would not have come to him, to give God worship on his behalf. |
|
|
|
Post by paulslaugh on Mar 15, 2023 14:13:47 GMT
If he was worshipping Abraham’s only one God in existence before Abraham, why did God chose Abe’s people over Melchizedek? Looks Mel had his temple on the Temple Mount up and running long before King Solomon took over the spot and built his. Why not? Abraham certainly believed that Melchizedek worshipped his God, otherwise, he would not have come to him, to give God worship on his behalf. Yeah, why not? Accept that’s not how story goes. Melchizedek did not worship Yahweh, it was El Elyon. Most of the Mesopotamian sky gods were similar though. |
|
|
|
Post by clusium on Mar 15, 2023 15:00:34 GMT
Why not? Abraham certainly believed that Melchizedek worshipped his God, otherwise, he would not have come to him, to give God worship on his behalf. Yeah, why not? Accept that’s not how story goes. Melchizedek did not worship Yahweh, it was El Elyon. Most of the Mesopotamian sky gods were similar though. |
|
|
|
Post by paulslaugh on Mar 15, 2023 16:00:08 GMT
I would say that there are 3 people responsible for it, Jesus is not one of them Paul for spreading Christianity Constantine The Great for being the first Roman emperor to convert to Christianity, and recognizing that Christianity had become the dominate religion in the Roman empire, in contrast to what people think, Constantin did not make Christianity the official religion of the Roman empire Theodosius I for making Christianity into the official religion of the Roman empire. Jesus did not mean to found a new religion, but a new religion did come out of his ministry. But Jesus himself is not responsible for the survival of Christianity. He needed something to hold the fracturing empire together as a single identifier since by the 4th century, it had become very diverse with heathens pouring in from the North. They didn’t see Roman culture as something to necessarily assimilate to. The churches…the Roman church and the Arian church dominated…had formed their bishop hierarchies by then and they were well run and organized. (Arianism was more popular with the Germanic tribes. And it worked for a while. Plus, framing the new Christian rituals as paganish was an attractor, but it was still centuries before Mediterranean paganism was wiped out. Germanic paganism took a while longer, but happened as the church grew more militant as Islam came on the scene, so the bishops indulged the warrior tribes by not condemning Thor outright. He became a human hero of old rather than a demigod. Odin got the same treatment. |
|
|
|
Post by amyghost on Mar 15, 2023 16:59:16 GMT
That doesn't obviate the fact that there are differences, and significant ones--a fact you initially denied. And still deny. They are not anywhere as different as let's say, the JWs, Pentecostals, Mormons, SDAs, Christian Science, Baptist, etc. The Orthodox believe in Apostolic Succession, just as Catholicism does. The Orthodox venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary, in the same way that Catholicism does (Anglicanism, & maybe Lutheranism are the only Protestant churches to venerate Mary). The Orthodox have 7 Sacraments, just as Catholicism does (the vast majority of Protestants, with the noted exceptions of the 2 afore-mentioned ones, have only 2 sacraments). The Orthodox only ordain men as priests, just as Catholicism does. The Orthodox have monks & nuns, just as Catholicism does. The surface similarities do not, once again, obviate very real doctrinal differences, a number of which originate in differing interpretations of scripture. And, once again, this is not even touching on the other sects of Catholicism (the non-Latin), in which the differences are likely even greater. But RC's will go to great lengths to deny the schisms in their 'one true' variety of Christian dogma, the better to emphasize the, to them, heretical sectarianisms of the Protestant branches. But to the onlooker, it becomes obvious that there is no 'one true', fully in accord with every precept of dogma that the Roman Catholic Church erroneously insists itself to be the sole earthly exponent of. (and, as much as the author of the article cited here- www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/are-there-sects-in-the-catholic-church-1350-attempts to torture words to evade facts, there are indeed sects within the RCC itself, as any observer of the RCC is quite aware.) |
|
