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Post by novastar6 on Jun 10, 2023 22:31:36 GMT
I'm not sure if this is all supposed to be the same group of people, but you've got atheists who can quote the entire Bible, sans context, to make some kind of 'point', and you've got atheists who don't believe the devil exists because they don't believe in a red guy with horns and hooves and a tail and a pitchfork.
What chapter and verse did that come from again?
Oh, right, none.
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Post by TheGoodMan19 on Jun 10, 2023 22:39:24 GMT
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jackbrock
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Post by jackbrock on Jun 11, 2023 1:43:15 GMT
People often need a physical symbol for things to understand an abstract issue like evil. They need to create a devil to comprehend evil; much like saying "it wasn't me, it was the devil who made me do it".
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jackbrock
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Post by jackbrock on Jun 11, 2023 1:44:33 GMT
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Post by novastar6 on Jun 11, 2023 4:46:43 GMT
People often need a physical symbol for things to understand an abstract issue like evil. They need to create a devil to comprehend evil; much like saying "it wasn't me, it was the devil who made me do it".
That was Flip Wilson.
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Post by amyghost on Jun 11, 2023 16:52:10 GMT
People often need a physical symbol for things to understand an abstract issue like evil. They need to create a devil to comprehend evil; much like saying "it wasn't me, it was the devil who made me do it". The original Scholastic notion of 'hell' was simply the condition of the soul's eternal separation from God. Since an idea as abstract as that wasn't apt to strike much terror into the heart of the average illiterate peasant, it became necessary for the church to recast the concept with a full range of fiery tortures and hideous punishments as inducement for the peasants to behave themselves and show proper submission to church authority (backing up those putative afterlife tortures with grisly real-world ones inflicted on sundry backsliders and heretics didn't hurt, either). That said, plenty of believers accept this illusion of this Hell as an actual place without much in the way of biblical context to support that belief; and many of them can also quote mouthfuls of scripture out of context to make their own points, perverse or otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2023 17:31:55 GMT
People often need a physical symbol for things to understand an abstract issue like evil. They need to create a devil to comprehend evil; much like saying "it wasn't me, it was the devil who made me do it". The original Scholastic notion of 'hell' was simply the condition of the soul's eternal separation from God. Since an idea as abstract as that wasn't apt to strike much terror into the heart of the average illiterate peasant, it became necessary for the church to recast the concept with a full range of fiery tortures and hideous punishments as inducement for the peasants to behave themselves and show proper submission to church authority (backing up those putative afterlife tortures with grisly real-world ones inflicted on sundry backsliders and heretics didn't hurt, either). That said, plenty of believers accept this illusion of this Hell as an actual place without much in the way of biblical context to support that belief; and many of them can also quote mouthfuls of scripture out of context to make their own points, perverse or otherwise. Salient post 👆
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Post by novastar6 on Jun 11, 2023 18:20:04 GMT
People often need a physical symbol for things to understand an abstract issue like evil. They need to create a devil to comprehend evil; much like saying "it wasn't me, it was the devil who made me do it". The original Scholastic notion of 'hell' was simply the condition of the soul's eternal separation from God. Since an idea as abstract as that wasn't apt to strike much terror into the heart of the average illiterate peasant, it became necessary for the church to recast the concept with a full range of fiery tortures and hideous punishments as inducement for the peasants to behave themselves and show proper submission to church authority (backing up those putative afterlife tortures with grisly real-world ones inflicted on sundry backsliders and heretics didn't hurt, either). That said, plenty of believers accept this illusion of this Hell as an actual place without much in the way of biblical context to support that belief; and many of them can also quote mouthfuls of scripture out of context to make their own points, perverse or otherwise.
And what was the original Scholastic notion of the devil?
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Post by amyghost on Jun 11, 2023 21:31:26 GMT
The original Scholastic notion of 'hell' was simply the condition of the soul's eternal separation from God. Since an idea as abstract as that wasn't apt to strike much terror into the heart of the average illiterate peasant, it became necessary for the church to recast the concept with a full range of fiery tortures and hideous punishments as inducement for the peasants to behave themselves and show proper submission to church authority (backing up those putative afterlife tortures with grisly real-world ones inflicted on sundry backsliders and heretics didn't hurt, either). That said, plenty of believers accept this illusion of this Hell as an actual place without much in the way of biblical context to support that belief; and many of them can also quote mouthfuls of scripture out of context to make their own points, perverse or otherwise.
And what was the original Scholastic notion of the devil?
There wasn't one originally, at least not in the sense the average modern era Christian would comprehend it. Hell, being a state of eternal apartness from God, was a condition, not a place. Therefore it wasn't peopled with mythic creatures such as devils, demons, imps and the like. As Scholasticism kept pace with Roman Catholic doctrine, by the time of Aquinas the idea of Hell as a place of physical torment for the wicked populated by Satan and his minions had taken pretty firm root in the theology--but, as with a not minor amount of that doctrine, very little of this theological teaching can be found as deriving from actual scriptural content.
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Post by novastar6 on Jun 11, 2023 22:11:54 GMT
And what was the original Scholastic notion of the devil?
There wasn't one originally, at least not in the sense the average modern era Christian would comprehend it. Hell, being a state of eternal apartness from God, was a condition, not a place. Therefore it wasn't peopled with mythic creatures such as devils, demons, imps and the like. As Scholasticism kept pace with Roman Catholic doctrine, by the time of Aquinas the idea of Hell as a place of physical torment for the wicked populated by Satan and his minions had taken pretty firm root in the theology--but, as with a not minor amount of that doctrine, very little of this theological teaching can be found as deriving from actual scriptural content.
So originally there was no Lucifer, no fallen angel?
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gw
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Post by gw on Jun 12, 2023 2:00:51 GMT
I think that the devil is an important scapegoat for religious people because it takes the blame for evil away from god. It doesn't exactly explain why an all knowing, all powerful god would let such an evil being come about but it muddies the waters enough by taking direct blame from god and gives people something else to blame and someone who can torture people for all eternity without god dirtying their proverbial hands. If it weren't for the devil then, crucially, there would be no one to blame for all the awful things that have happened and it would be impossible to imprint the idea of an omnibenevolent god onto our imperfect reality.
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Post by captainbryce on Jun 12, 2023 16:18:55 GMT
I'm not sure if this is all supposed to be the same group of people, but you've got atheists who can quote the entire Bible, sans context, to make some kind of 'point', and you've got atheists who don't believe the devil exists because they don't believe in a red guy with horns and hooves and a tail and a pitchfork.
What chapter and verse did that come from again?
Oh, right, none.
How about an atheist who as a former devout Christian apologist actually knows more biblical context than the majority so-called Christians who post and run when backed against a corner? Or was this question only intended for your false dichotomy? Here’s the thing…by “the devil” you’ll need to explain what YOU mean by that because in accordance with the historical context, sociological context, and biblical context, that concept means different things to different believers. Which biblical devil are you talking about? Satan, Lucifer, the Serpent, the Beast, the Dragon, the Antichrist, the false prophets, all of the above (even though they are all different), all of the above (because they are different names for the same thing), some of the above (because some are the same and others are different), or none of the above? You see, “the devil” is a catch all term that is applied to many different things in Christianity - oftentimes based on the interpretation of the believer, as influenced by their associated, denominational doctrines. For the record, I don’t believe in ANY devils because I don’t believe in anything supernatural. It doesn’t matter which devil you’re talking about or what YOUR interpretation of it is, if it’s a supernatural idea, I reject it. Just like I don’t believe in ghosts, spirits, angels, or demons. These things are not real; they exist only as concepts within the mind. And that’s why the red guy with horns, hooves, and a tail is just as viable conceptually as any other devil. That is to say “fictional”.
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Post by novastar6 on Jun 12, 2023 17:21:03 GMT
I think that the devil is an important scapegoat for religious people because it takes the blame for evil away from god. It doesn't exactly explain why an all knowing, all powerful god would let such an evil being come about but it muddies the waters enough by taking direct blame from god and gives people something else to blame and someone who can torture people for all eternity without god dirtying their proverbial hands. If it weren't for the devil then, crucially, there would be no one to blame for all the awful things that have happened and it would be impossible to imprint the idea of an omnibenevolent god onto our imperfect reality.
Because God gave people free will, and nobody is going to use free will to only do good things 100% of the time, not even the most sainted religious leaders.
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gw
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Post by gw on Jun 12, 2023 18:01:51 GMT
I think that the devil is an important scapegoat for religious people because it takes the blame for evil away from god. It doesn't exactly explain why an all knowing, all powerful god would let such an evil being come about but it muddies the waters enough by taking direct blame from god and gives people something else to blame and someone who can torture people for all eternity without god dirtying their proverbial hands. If it weren't for the devil then, crucially, there would be no one to blame for all the awful things that have happened and it would be impossible to imprint the idea of an omnibenevolent god onto our imperfect reality.
Because God gave people free will, and nobody is going to use free will to only do good things 100% of the time, not even the most sainted religious leaders.
This creates a well established paradox. If god is all powerful, then god knows what we're going to do and therefore we don't have free will. Either god knows what we're going to do or doesn't and if they don't, then if god is not all powerful and if they do then there's no such thing as free will. But regardless of the existence of a god or not, every decision we make stems from something that comes before that we didn't determine. So, depending on what you consider free will to be, if you consider it to be the ability to determine fate solely through our actions, we can choose what we do but it all comes down to prior events, fully predetermined or random and we don't have the control of those. So while we have freedom to make decisions, everything we do stems from something beyond our control and thus we're not able to will things into being in the most fundamental sense because we're just a complex cog in the machine of the universe.
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Post by novastar6 on Jun 12, 2023 19:21:19 GMT
Because God gave people free will, and nobody is going to use free will to only do good things 100% of the time, not even the most sainted religious leaders.
This creates a well established paradox. If god is all powerful, then god knows what we're going to do and therefore we don't have free will. Either god knows what we're going to do or doesn't and if they don't, then if god is not all powerful and if they do then there's no such thing as free will. But regardless of the existence of a god or not, every decision we make stems from something that comes before that we didn't determine. So, depending on what you consider free will to be, if you consider it to be the ability to determine fate solely through our actions, we can choose what we do but it all comes down to prior events, fully predetermined or random and we don't have the control of those. So while we have freedom to make decisions, everything we do stems from something beyond our control and thus we're not able to will things into being in the most fundamental sense because we're just a complex cog in the machine of the universe.
God knowing what we're going to do doesn't negate free will. The sun is not *caused* to rise in the east every morning by you *knowing* it's going to.
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gw
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Post by gw on Jun 12, 2023 20:54:20 GMT
If god knew what was going to happen, then how is that different from causing it to happen their self? Where's the free will for those god created? If god decided it all at the beginning, then every choice you make is predetermined by god. God didn't give you the freedom to choose, they gave you the illusion that you feel you're in charge of your choices. The difference between knowing which way the sun will rise and god knowing what would happen is that god would have known it all before it happened and made it knowing all the bad things that would happen. That would give us about as much free will as a character in a book. It would be one thing if god made animals that would need to eat each other if they ran out of other sources of food, but in our reality, animals depend entirely on eating other animals as their source of food. The only choice some animals have to be considered ethical is to starve. So not only can some animals not be good all the time, they must be bad all the time, and they don't have a choice in the matter. If there's an ultimate predetermined fate, then where, in your view, does free will come in? If all our actions are predetermined by the ones that came before, we have the ability to react to our environment and make choices, but all those reactions and choices are ultimately out of our control, so where does free will enter the picture?
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monicah
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Post by monicah on Jun 13, 2023 1:54:37 GMT
Hmmmm
I don’t relate to this
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Post by novastar6 on Jun 13, 2023 3:11:33 GMT
If god knew what was going to happen, then how is that different from causing it to happen their self? Where's the free will for those god created? If god decided it all at the beginning, then every choice you make is predetermined by god. God didn't give you the freedom to choose, they gave you the illusion that you feel you're in charge of your choices. The difference between knowing which way the sun will rise and god knowing what would happen is that god would have known it all before it happened and made it knowing all the bad things that would happen. That would give us about as much free will as a character in a book. It would be one thing if god made animals that would need to eat each other if they ran out of other sources of food, but in our reality, animals depend entirely on eating other animals as their source of food. The only choice some animals have to be considered ethical is to starve. So not only can some animals not be good all the time, they must be bad all the time, and they don't have a choice in the matter. If there's an ultimate predetermined fate, then where, in your view, does free will come in? If all our actions are predetermined by the ones that came before, we have the ability to react to our environment and make choices, but all those reactions and choices are ultimately out of our control, so where does free will enter the picture?
Knowing all the bad that would come from man having free will still doesn't negate the existence of free will. People do what they CHOOSE to do, and the same people bitching about free will sure as hell wouldn't want to be without it.
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gw
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Post by gw on Jun 13, 2023 3:35:45 GMT
If god knew what was going to happen, then how is that different from causing it to happen their self? Where's the free will for those god created? If god decided it all at the beginning, then every choice you make is predetermined by god. God didn't give you the freedom to choose, they gave you the illusion that you feel you're in charge of your choices. The difference between knowing which way the sun will rise and god knowing what would happen is that god would have known it all before it happened and made it knowing all the bad things that would happen. That would give us about as much free will as a character in a book. It would be one thing if god made animals that would need to eat each other if they ran out of other sources of food, but in our reality, animals depend entirely on eating other animals as their source of food. The only choice some animals have to be considered ethical is to starve. So not only can some animals not be good all the time, they must be bad all the time, and they don't have a choice in the matter. If there's an ultimate predetermined fate, then where, in your view, does free will come in? If all our actions are predetermined by the ones that came before, we have the ability to react to our environment and make choices, but all those reactions and choices are ultimately out of our control, so where does free will enter the picture?
Knowing all the bad that would come from man having free will still doesn't negate the existence of free will. People do what they CHOOSE to do, and the same people bitching about free will sure as hell wouldn't want to be without it.
I'm not arguing against freedom of choice per say. I'm arguing against free will in terms of owning your own power of choice independent of the preceding causes and in such a way that we influence the future that wasn't predetermined. It's possible that there's some sort of quantum effect that happens in your brain that allows for some sort of way that affects your decision making but I haven't heard it argued and if it were true, it would need to happen in a particular way that puts the power of decision making in your mind at the exact moment the decision is being made and somehow gives you the control. Until and unless someone effectively makes that case, it is much more likely that either everything is predetermined, or that there is some degree of randomness but not in such a way that it grants control to a person making a decision, and thus still no free will.
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Post by novastar6 on Jun 13, 2023 4:24:58 GMT
Knowing all the bad that would come from man having free will still doesn't negate the existence of free will. People do what they CHOOSE to do, and the same people bitching about free will sure as hell wouldn't want to be without it.
I'm not arguing against freedom of choice per say. I'm arguing against free will in terms of owning your own power of choice independent of the preceding causes and in such a way that we influence the future that wasn't predetermined. It's possible that there's some sort of quantum effect that happens in your brain that allows for some sort of way that affects your decision making but I haven't heard it argued and if it were true, it would need to happen in a particular way that puts the power of decision making in your mind at the exact moment the decision is being made and somehow gives you the control. Until and unless someone effectively makes that case, it is much more likely that either everything is predetermined, or that there is some degree of randomness but not in such a way that it grants control to a person making a decision, and thus still no free will.
Did it ever occur to you you're overthinking and over-complicating the matter?
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