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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 29, 2023 10:18:37 GMT
Yet it's always indicated as literally a fate worse than death...
er... doesn't one have to be dead to go there?
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Post by amyghost on Jun 29, 2023 13:12:23 GMT
Yet it's always indicated as literally a fate worse than death. It doesn't say 'it's fine there', 'it's neutral there', 'it might be boring', etc.
But that doesn't make Hell an objectively real and physical destination.
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Post by novastar6 on Jun 29, 2023 14:18:46 GMT
Yet it's always indicated as literally a fate worse than death...
er... doesn't one have to be dead to go there?
That's not the point. Atheists believe when you die there's simply nothing. Katharine Hepburn believed death would just be like an eternal sleep. No matter what version of hell people talk about, all of them are made out to be far worse than merely 'nothing', nobody describes it as being like a nice long sleep.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 29, 2023 18:38:09 GMT
er... doesn't one have to be dead to go there? That's not the point. Atheists believe when you die there's simply nothing. There is no reason why an atheist cannot believe in reincarnation. A belief in reincarnation is not automatically an endorsement of gods. Most Buddhists are technically atheists who believe in reincarnation. Actually I would quite enjoy being in Hell, should it exist. All my best friends and most of my most admired intellectuals would very likely be there to greet me for one thing. Also, from the descriptions I have read, like Hitchens before me I think heaven would be rather like a celestial North Korea, right down to the personality cult of a 'dear leader'.. an appreciation enforced for ever. www.preachingtoday.com/illustrations/2019/april/is-heaven-celestial-north-korea.htmlBut, er, you have just told us Hepburn did! and there's en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Sleep_(1946_film) ... where the euphemism is clear. Or then "'We are such stuff / As dreams are made on, and our little life / Is rounded with a sleep. ' (Shakespeare) Spoken by the magician Prospero. He has just made a large group of spirits vanish and is reminding his daughter and her fiancé that mortal life also ends quickly. And have you never had a cherished pet "put to sleep" ? The point still remains that (for the devoutly-challenged at least) death involves ending up in heaven or hell , and so it is illogical to say that 'hell is worse than death' since heaven or hell are considered a necessary part or outcome of the death experience. For atheists, who do not believe in heaven/hell they cannot be worse than death either, since they would not consider the (for them) imaginary comparable to the natural fact of non existence.
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Post by clusium on Jun 29, 2023 19:38:42 GMT
That's not the point. Atheists believe when you die there's simply nothing. There is no reason why an atheist cannot believe in reincarnation. A belief in reincarnation is not automatically an endorsement of gods. Most Buddhists are technically atheists who believe in reincarnation. Actually I would quite enjoy being in Hell, should it exist. All my best friends and most of my most admired intellectuals would very likely be there to greet me for one thing. Also, from the descriptions I have read, like Hitchens before me I think heaven would be rather like a celestial North Korea, right down to the personality cult of a 'dear leader'.. an appreciation enforced for ever. www.preachingtoday.com/illustrations/2019/april/is-heaven-celestial-north-korea.htmlBut, er, you have just told us Hepburn did! and there's en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Sleep_(1946_film) ... where the euphemism is clear. Or then "'We are such stuff / As dreams are made on, and our little life / Is rounded with a sleep. ' (Shakespeare) Spoken by the magician Prospero. He has just made a large group of spirits vanish and is reminding his daughter and her fiancé that mortal life also ends quickly. And have you never had a cherished pet "put to sleep" ? The point still remains that (for the devoutly-challenged at least) death involves ending up in heaven or hell , and so it is illogical to say that 'hell is worse than death' since heaven or hell are considered a necessary part or outcome of the death experience. For atheists, who do not believe in heaven/hell they cannot be worse than death either, since they would not consider the (for them) imaginary comparable to the natural fact of non existence. Actually, Buddhism does have gods. What it does not have is a belief in a Supreme Creator. No, you would not enjoy hell. If any place in the afterlife is just like a celestial North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, etc., it would be hell, not Heaven.
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Post by novastar6 on Jun 29, 2023 19:55:27 GMT
No, you would not enjoy hell. If any place in the afterlife is just like a celestial North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, etc., it would be hell, not Heaven.
No kidding, people entertaining the notion of any kind of afterlife seriously think Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, etc., went to Heaven?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 29, 2023 19:56:04 GMT
;No, you would not enjoy hell. If any place in the afterlife is just like a celestial North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, etc., it would be hell, not Heaven. Never the less, as others have observed, a supposed heaven at least in some accounting, shares characteristics with NK. (It might be also pointed out that, for a privileged few at least, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were a kind of heaven) As a soft atheist, however, the issue over whether to prefer what is quite moot for me.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 29, 2023 19:58:23 GMT
No, you would not enjoy hell. If any place in the afterlife is just like a celestial North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, etc., it would be hell, not Heaven.
No kidding, people entertaining the notion of any kind of afterlife seriously think Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, etc., went to Heaven?
It ought not to be a surprise to anyone with a knowledge of history to know that the very worst can have their fervent admirers.
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Post by clusium on Jun 29, 2023 20:09:25 GMT
;No, you would not enjoy hell. If any place in the afterlife is just like a celestial North Korea, Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, etc., it would be hell, not Heaven. Never the less, as others have observed, a supposed heaven at least in some accounting, shares characteristics with NK. (It might be also pointed out that, for a privileged few at least, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were a kind of heaven) As a soft atheist, however, the issue over whether to prefer what is quite moot for me. You could make the exactly the same kind of argument regarding the USA, the UK, Canada, & pretty much all countries in the free world. Patriotism is a highly encouraged virtue, especially for the afore-mentioned USA.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 29, 2023 20:15:05 GMT
Never the less, as others have observed, a supposed heaven at least in some accounting, shares characteristics with NK. (It might be also pointed out that, for a privileged few at least, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were a kind of heaven) As a soft atheist, however, the issue over whether to prefer what is quite moot for me. You could make the exactly the same kind of argument regarding the USA, the UK, Canada, & pretty much all countries in the free world. Patriotism is a highly encouraged virtue, especially for the afore-mentioned USA. If you say that the USA, the UK, Canada, & pretty much all countries in the free world enjoy a cult of personality akin to the severe, obligatory level seen in NK, I would argue not. Even the supporters of Trump do not ask for the death penalty for insulting the much loved Supreme Republican. And Patriotism, or love of country, is not the same thing at all.
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The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
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Post by The Lost One on Jun 29, 2023 21:13:25 GMT
No kidding, people entertaining the notion of any kind of afterlife seriously think Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, etc., went to Heaven? Isn’t it considered unChristian to presume anyone's fate in the afterlife? Or is that just a Catholic thing?
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Post by Admin on Jun 29, 2023 23:36:40 GMT
That's not the point. Atheists believe when you die there's simply nothing. There is no reason why an atheist cannot believe in reincarnation. A belief in reincarnation is not automatically an endorsement of gods. Most Buddhists are technically atheists who believe in reincarnation. Actually I would quite enjoy being in Hell, should it exist. All my best friends and most of my most admired intellectuals would very likely be there to greet me for one thing. Also, from the descriptions I have read, like Hitchens before me I think heaven would be rather like a celestial North Korea, right down to the personality cult of a 'dear leader'.. an appreciation enforced for ever. www.preachingtoday.com/illustrations/2019/april/is-heaven-celestial-north-korea.htmlBut, er, you have just told us Hepburn did! and there's en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Sleep_(1946_film) ... where the euphemism is clear. Or then "'We are such stuff / As dreams are made on, and our little life / Is rounded with a sleep. ' (Shakespeare) Spoken by the magician Prospero. He has just made a large group of spirits vanish and is reminding his daughter and her fiancé that mortal life also ends quickly. And have you never had a cherished pet "put to sleep" ? The point still remains that (for the devoutly-challenged at least) death involves ending up in heaven or hell , and so it is illogical to say that 'hell is worse than death' since heaven or hell are considered a necessary part or outcome of the death experience. For atheists, who do not believe in heaven/hell they cannot be worse than death either, since they would not consider the (for them) imaginary comparable to the natural fact of non existence. Reincarnation seems problematic for an atheist given the reason he's an atheist to begin with. Call it what you will, but if you enjoy it, it's not hell. Nova told us Hepburn described death as a nice long sleep, not hell.
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Post by Admin on Jun 29, 2023 23:38:06 GMT
No kidding, people entertaining the notion of any kind of afterlife seriously think Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, etc., went to Heaven? Isn’t it considered unChristian to presume anyone's fate in the afterlife? Or is that just a Catholic thing? Suggesting the possibility that Hitler made it to heaven rarely if ever goes over very well.
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Post by clusium on Jun 30, 2023 0:00:48 GMT
You could make the exactly the same kind of argument regarding the USA, the UK, Canada, & pretty much all countries in the free world. Patriotism is a highly encouraged virtue, especially for the afore-mentioned USA. If you say that the USA, the UK, Canada, & pretty much all countries in the free world enjoy a cult of personality akin to the severe, obligatory level seen in NK, I would argue not. Even the supporters of Trump do not ask for the death penalty for insulting the much loved Supreme Republican. And Patriotism, or love of country, is not the same thing at all. The difference between respecting one's political leaders & worshipping God is, in the case of the former, if you strip away the political powers of said leader, they are exactly the same as the rest of us. God Is the Source of all life that exists in the universe (multiverse). If you choose to reject the Source of life in the universe, then the Source of life will not Stop you from leaving His Eternal Presence. You can go to a state where He Is not Present - EVER!! However, you do so of your own volition. Because you reject the Presence Of the Source of life, you reject all that is Good in the universe, & thereby choose to live in a state of perpetual evil for all eternity. There is no love in hell. One stews in their own evil & hatred. Former friendships become eternal enemies with one another.
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Post by novastar6 on Jun 30, 2023 0:41:06 GMT
No kidding, people entertaining the notion of any kind of afterlife seriously think Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, etc., went to Heaven? Isn’t it considered unChristian to presume anyone's fate in the afterlife? Or is that just a Catholic thing?
I've been told we shouldn't assume, but I've never heard anyone flat out say it's unChristian, though I could be wrong. Anybody with a god complex though that thinks they are the be all and end all, it's a safe bet where they ain't going. A conscience would be required to admit you're evil and lost and need Jesus to save you, and psychopaths with god complexes aren't known for having a conscience.
Kind of funny though because on the original boards I got flack for saying IF Hitler repented before his death then yes, even with the blood of millions of people on his hands and being among the top scourge of the entire planet, he too would go to Heaven and he would belong there. People don't want to hear that, they want to hear evil people will be punished no matter what. I can definitely see the appeal, but it's nobody's business to say who does and doesn't belong in Heaven if they truly repent. There's nothing we can do about it, it's not up to us, and there's a reason why it's not.
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Post by novastar6 on Jun 30, 2023 0:41:56 GMT
Never the less, as others have observed, a supposed heaven at least in some accounting, shares characteristics with NK. (It might be also pointed out that, for a privileged few at least, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were a kind of heaven) As a soft atheist, however, the issue over whether to prefer what is quite moot for me. You could make the exactly the same kind of argument regarding the USA, the UK, Canada, & pretty much all countries in the free world. Patriotism is a highly encouraged virtue, especially for the afore-mentioned USA.
That reminds me, I have to remember to wish a friend of mine a Happy Canada Day on Saturday.
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Post by novastar6 on Jun 30, 2023 0:43:08 GMT
No kidding, people entertaining the notion of any kind of afterlife seriously think Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, etc., went to Heaven?
It ought not to be a surprise to anyone with a knowledge of history to know that the very worst can have their fervent admirers.
Like the Moonie cult, which even though their leader died many years ago, even the modern day followers just know he's not staying dead, he's coming back. In the meantime though I haven't heard anyone say where he currently *is*.
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Post by clusium on Jun 30, 2023 5:01:32 GMT
You could make the exactly the same kind of argument regarding the USA, the UK, Canada, & pretty much all countries in the free world. Patriotism is a highly encouraged virtue, especially for the afore-mentioned USA.
That reminds me, I have to remember to wish a friend of mine a Happy Canada Day on Saturday.
Thank you!!!!
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Post by captainbryce on Jun 30, 2023 9:33:56 GMT
1) How could you possibly know this? What are you basing this on OTHER than your indoctrinated religious beliefs (which makes this a begging the question fallacy) 2) Does God have free-will? Because if he does, then didn’t you just disprove your premise (unless you resort to special pleading)? 3) Do the 2/3 of angels who did NOT rebel against God (according to scripture) have “free-will”? Because if they do, then doesn’t that also invalidate your premise?
The issue is PEOPLE having free will, people are not angels and they're not God. Some like to convince themselves they are, those are what we call egotistical narcissists.
First of all, you didn’t answer the questions. You asserted that “nobody is going to use free will to only do good things 100% of the time”, but you can’t answer how you know this. It seems that your assertion is based solely on your religion (which would make it question begging). Secondly, your argument is a Special Pleading Fallacy. You haven’t even attempted to give a REASON for why people having free will is uniquely problematic only for humans, but not for anything else with free will. So your argument fails in two different ways!
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Jun 30, 2023 9:57:52 GMT
It ought not to be a surprise to anyone with a knowledge of history to know that the very worst can have their fervent admirers.
Like the Moonie cult, which even though their leader died many years ago, even the modern day followers just know he's not staying dead, he's coming back. In the meantime though I haven't heard anyone say where he currently *is*.
That sounds kind of familiar...
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