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Post by Rodney Farber on Apr 14, 2024 21:48:05 GMT
As I understand it, Pascal's wager is something like:
If you believe in God and you're correct, you will spend eternity in Heaven. If you believe in God and there is no God, you don't care because you're dead.
If you do NOT believe in God and you're wrong, you spend eternity in Hell. If you do NOT believe in God and there is no God, you don't care because you're dead.
The reasoning is, you have little to lose by believing in God and everything to lose if you don't believe in God and you're wrong.
So my question is: If there is an after-life, who made the decision that belief in Yahweh is the criterion by which our after-life destination is determined? How do we know whether or not the criterion is: If you drink Pepsi, you go to Heaven, but if you drink Coke, you spend eternity listening to fingernails on a chalkboard.
On a related note: Why do prisoners get "last rights" as they are being let to their execution after a murder conviction? Does Jehovah welcome mass murderers to His pearly gates just because they believe in Him?
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 14, 2024 21:54:34 GMT
As I understand it, Pascal's wager is something like:
If you believe in God and you're correct, you will spend eternity in Heaven. If you believe in God and there is no God, you don't care because you're dead.
If you do NOT believe in God and you're wrong, you spend eternity in Hell. If you do NOT believe in God and there is no God, you don't care because you're dead.
The reasoning is, you have little to lose by believing in God and everything to lose if you don't believe in God and you're wrong.
So my question is: If there is an after-life, who made the decision that belief in God is the criterion by which our after-life destination is determined. How do we know whether or not the criterion is: If you drink Pepsi, you go to Heaven, but if you drink Coke, you spend eternity listening to fingernails on a chalkboard.
On a related note: Why do prisoners get "last rights" as they are being let to their execution after a murder conviction? Will Jehovah welcome mass murderers to His pearly gates if they believe in Him?
No. One goes to heaven because one behaved good, or because of grace. That’s the point. The only trouble lies with what does mean good behavior and who decides about that outside before afterlife. Well, almost the point. Almost sure about that.
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Post by Admin on Apr 15, 2024 3:42:12 GMT
As I understand it, Pascal's wager is something like: If you believe in God and you're correct, you will spend eternity in Heaven. If you believe in God and there is no God, you don't care because you're dead. If you do NOT believe in God and you're wrong, you spend eternity in Hell. If you do NOT believe in God and there is no God, you don't care because you're dead. The reasoning is, you have little to lose by believing in God and everything to lose if you don't believe in God and you're wrong. So my question is: If there is an after-life, who made the decision that belief in God is the criterion by which our after-life destination is determined. How do we know whether or not the criterion is: If you drink Pepsi, you go to Heaven, but if you drink Coke, you spend eternity listening to fingernails on a chalkboard. On a related note: Why do prisoners get "last rights" as they are being let to their execution after a murder conviction? Will Jehovah welcome mass murderers to His pearly gates if they believe in Him?
In its simplest form, you have nothing to lose if you place your bet on God. The odds are much better, too. Of the four possible outcomes, only one is unfavorable. The most popular objection to the wager is the inability to believe. I think it's a valid objection. But if I were God, I'd let you in anyway if you were honestly unable to believe for whatever reason. I'm not sure belief is the only criterion. If it were, there would be atheists in hell. There are also people who believe in God, but would rather burn than be with him. Prisoners get last rites if they want them, and as the story goes, God's forgiveness isn't reserved for saints.
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 15, 2024 6:07:14 GMT
Here, now, outside, before afterlife, at last two/three religions agree that one must not kill. What are the official bypasses ?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 15, 2024 20:40:33 GMT
As I understand it, Pascal's wager is something like:
If you believe in God and you're correct, you will spend eternity in Heaven. If you believe in God and there is no God, you don't care because you're dead.
If you do NOT believe in God and you're wrong, you spend eternity in Hell. If you do NOT believe in God and there is no God, you don't care because you're dead.
The reasoning is, you have little to lose by believing in God and everything to lose if you don't believe in God and you're wrong.
So my question is: If there is an after-life, who made the decision that belief in Yahweh is the criterion by which our after-life destination is determined? How do we know whether or not the criterion is: If you drink Pepsi, you go to Heaven, but if you drink Coke, you spend eternity listening to fingernails on a chalkboard.
On a related note: Why do prisoners get "last rights" as they are being let to their execution after a murder conviction? Does Jehovah welcome mass murderers to His pearly gates just because they believe in Him?
For a soft atheist like me there are at least three objections to Pascal's wager: the first is that it is impossible to make oneself believe if one's doubts are held sincerely. (Hence the argument is probably more attractive to agnostics than others.) Secondly, if God does not exist and one spends the rest of one's life acting as if He did, that is a lot of time and effort spent wasting away the only life one has in self-deception. That is what is lost. And I do care about that. At least I am sure this life exists and is precious. Finally it still does not eliminate the issue of which deity is to be worshipped. Since the evidence for all gods is basically the same, the argument can ultimately be seen as one encouraging false belief. ...And who says God will honour the wager anyway? It seems to me in its way it tempts the supposed deity in that it makes trial of God, to prove whether He be so true, just, merciful, provident and powerful as His Word reports Him to be - through gambling. Isn't it possible that a god may reward honest disbelief and punish a dishonest belief in the divine? Ultimately the wager is just an elaborate way of saying 'believe in God whatever or go to hell', a form of coercion to impel belief which, ironically, Christian on this board have condemned when it is suggested the deity might make Himself known to better effect.
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Post by Admin on Apr 15, 2024 23:12:34 GMT
Secondly, if God does not exist and one spends the rest of one's life acting as if He did, that is a lot of time and effort spent wasting away the only life one has in self-deception. How exactly does one spend life acting as if God exists, and why would that be a bad thing to do?
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Apr 16, 2024 1:17:44 GMT
As I understand it, Pascal's wager is something like: If you believe in God and you're correct, you will spend eternity in Heaven. If you believe in God and there is no God, you don't care because you're dead. If you do NOT believe in God and you're wrong, you spend eternity in Hell. If you do NOT believe in God and there is no God, you don't care because you're dead. The reasoning is, you have little to lose by believing in God and everything to lose if you don't believe in God and you're wrong. So my question is: If there is an after-life, who made the decision that belief in God is the criterion by which our after-life destination is determined. How do we know whether or not the criterion is: If you drink Pepsi, you go to Heaven, but if you drink Coke, you spend eternity listening to fingernails on a chalkboard. On a related note: Why do prisoners get "last rights" as they are being let to their execution after a murder conviction? Will Jehovah welcome mass murderers to His pearly gates if they believe in Him?
In its simplest form, you have nothing to lose if you place your bet on God. The odds are much better, too. Of the four possible outcomes, only one is unfavorable. The most popular objection to the wager is the inability to believe. I think it's a valid objection. But if I were God, I'd let you in anyway if you were honestly unable to believe for whatever reason. I'm not sure belief is the only criterion. If it were, there would be atheists in hell. There are also people who believe in God, but would rather burn than be with him. Prisoners get last rites if they want them, and as the story goes, God's forgiveness isn't reserved for saints. Doesn't this assume that you are worshipping the right God? There have been lots of religions around since humans have been around. Pascal didn't factor that in. Is belief in God the only factor that decides your fate in the afterlife - assuming there is one? After all, Hitler was a good Catholic. So are all those priests who like to touch kids inappropriately. Would these people get in to Heaven is they "suddenly repented"? Rasputin had an interesting solution to that. He would go on a real bender (drinking copious amounts of booze) and be a real reprobate. When he was done and recovering from a massive hangover he would repent and say some prayers over the young Alexi. Would this count?
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Post by Admin on Apr 16, 2024 2:55:31 GMT
In its simplest form, you have nothing to lose if you place your bet on God. The odds are much better, too. Of the four possible outcomes, only one is unfavorable. The most popular objection to the wager is the inability to believe. I think it's a valid objection. But if I were God, I'd let you in anyway if you were honestly unable to believe for whatever reason. I'm not sure belief is the only criterion. If it were, there would be atheists in hell. There are also people who believe in God, but would rather burn than be with him. Prisoners get last rites if they want them, and as the story goes, God's forgiveness isn't reserved for saints. Doesn't this assume that you are worshipping the right God? There have been lots of religions around since humans have been around. Pascal didn't factor that in. Is belief in God the only factor that decides your fate in the afterlife - assuming there is one? After all, Hitler was a good Catholic. So are all those priests who like to touch kids inappropriately. Would these people get in to Heaven is they "suddenly repented"? Rasputin had an interesting solution to that. He would go on a real bender (drinking copious amounts of booze) and be a real reprobate. When he was done and recovering from a massive hangover he would repent and say some prayers over the young Alexi. Would this count? The wager assumes a god who requires belief and therefore doesn't apply to any gods who don't. Some say the only unforgivable sin is the rejection of his forgiveness. It's not easy to say Hitler and child molesting priests may be in heaven, but if you ask Lucifer, getting past the gates doesn't necessarily guarantee a permanent residence, let alone one with a license to genocide and unlimited kiddies. But for the purpose of the wager, belief is the only factor. Maybe someone should have told Rasputin that taking God for granted probably isn't the best plan. I'd argue it's a violation of the Commandment that says not to take his name in vain.
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Post by clusium on Apr 16, 2024 3:51:44 GMT
In its simplest form, you have nothing to lose if you place your bet on God. The odds are much better, too. Of the four possible outcomes, only one is unfavorable. The most popular objection to the wager is the inability to believe. I think it's a valid objection. But if I were God, I'd let you in anyway if you were honestly unable to believe for whatever reason. I'm not sure belief is the only criterion. If it were, there would be atheists in hell. There are also people who believe in God, but would rather burn than be with him. Prisoners get last rites if they want them, and as the story goes, God's forgiveness isn't reserved for saints. Doesn't this assume that you are worshipping the right God? There have been lots of religions around since humans have been around. Pascal didn't factor that in. Is belief in God the only factor that decides your fate in the afterlife - assuming there is one? After all, Hitler was a good Catholic. So are all those priests who like to touch kids inappropriately. Would these people get in to Heaven is they "suddenly repented"? Rasputin had an interesting solution to that. He would go on a real bender (drinking copious amounts of booze) and be a real reprobate. When he was done and recovering from a massive hangover he would repent and say some prayers over the young Alexi. Would this count? No, Hitler was not a good Catholic. He wasn't even a good Christian. Hitler rejected the faith that he was raised in for Eastern religions, divination, & pre-christian Teutonic heathenry. He even wanted to have the Pope forcefully taken from the Vatican & sent to Auschwitz. Those priests that sexually abused children committed a grave sin.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 16, 2024 22:35:56 GMT
Secondly, if God does not exist and one spends the rest of one's life acting as if He did, that is a lot of time and effort spent wasting away the only life one has in self-deception. How exactly does one spend life acting as if God exists? Presumably as a Christian, you are best placed to answer this. I do the opposite. It depends on what one does in respect and support of that belief. Purely in connection with the implicit waste of time and effort already mentioned I have seen one estimate of Christians spending somewhere between 150 (weddings, funerals and occasionals only) and half a million hours (think Monks and Nuns) at church in a lifetime, depending on how serious they are about their faith. "How Much Time Should You Spend At Church Per Week? My answer: At least six hours (ie 3,120 pa)...if faith in Jesus Christ is indeed a high priority for us, then a commitment to the work of the church and the strengthening of it should take pride of place in our commitments each week. " www.patheos.com/blogs/clintschnekloth/2019/04/how-much-time-should-you-spend-at-church-per-week/ “Seek the Lord and His strength; seek His presence continually!” 1 Chronicles 16:11 “study to shew thyself approved unto God …" 2nd Timothy 2:15 Of course there is more to belief than just turning up at church and reading scripture and which also involve time and effort, as I am sure we both agree.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 16, 2024 22:45:13 GMT
Doesn't this assume that you are worshipping the right God? There have been lots of religions around since humans have been around. Pascal didn't factor that in. Is belief in God the only factor that decides your fate in the afterlife - assuming there is one? After all, Hitler was a good Catholic. So are all those priests who like to touch kids inappropriately. Would these people get in to Heaven is they "suddenly repented"? Rasputin had an interesting solution to that. He would go on a real bender (drinking copious amounts of booze) and be a real reprobate. When he was done and recovering from a massive hangover he would repent and say some prayers over the young Alexi. Would this count? The wager assumes a god who requires belief and therefore doesn't apply to any gods who don't. God and Allah, those supposed deities with the most skin in the game worldwide, both require belief. Presumably some others do too.
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Apr 17, 2024 0:22:52 GMT
Doesn't this assume that you are worshipping the right God? There have been lots of religions around since humans have been around. Pascal didn't factor that in. Is belief in God the only factor that decides your fate in the afterlife - assuming there is one? After all, Hitler was a good Catholic. So are all those priests who like to touch kids inappropriately. Would these people get in to Heaven if they "suddenly repented"? Rasputin had an interesting solution to that. He would go on a real bender (drinking copious amounts of booze) and be a real reprobate. When he was done and recovering from a massive hangover he would repent and say some prayers over the young Alexi. Would this count? The wager assumes a god who requires belief and therefore doesn't apply to any gods who don't. Some say the only unforgivable sin is the rejection of his forgiveness. It's not easy to say Hitler and child molesting priests may be in heaven, but if you ask Lucifer, getting past the gates doesn't necessarily guarantee a permanent residence, let alone one with a license to genocide and unlimited kiddies. But for the purpose of the wager, belief is the only factor. Maybe someone should have told Rasputin that taking God for granted probably isn't the best plan. I'd argue it's a violation of the Commandment that says not to take his name in vain. The wager assumes a god who requires belief and therefore doesn't apply to any gods who don't.Almost all Gods require their belief in them. Many of them demand sacrifice to them. Those that don't aren't gods. Some say the only unforgivable sin is the rejection of his forgiveness. It's not easy to say Hitler and child molesting priests may be in heaven, but if you ask Lucifer, getting past the gates doesn't necessarily guarantee a permanent residence, let alone one with a license to genocide and unlimited kiddies. But for the purpose of the wager, belief is the only factor.
If the only factor is belief, I wonder why all the rules and traditions are there in all religions. In the big three religions, the laws given by Moses are supposedly non-negotiable, especially for Muslims and Jews. Christians for some reason have discarded most of them - except for the gay thing. They encourage bashing them because they are "sinners", as long as it's done in an efficient Christian manner. Let's face it, only God can forgive when it comes to the afterlife; us humans have to guess what that is. Maybe someone should have told Rasputin that taking God for granted probably isn't the best plan. I'd argue it's a violation of the Commandment that says not to take his name in vain. Good point, but the wager strictly says that as long as you have belief, you go to heaven. Theoretically, Jeffery Dahmer is in heaven right now. He became a believer before he was murdered in jail; he was baptized the same time that John Wayne Gacy was executed. As for Dahmer's murders, he was killing gays mostly. The big three love that. Despite what God says in the commandments about murder, religion has never had a problem with that, as long as you are a believer in the right religion.
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Apr 17, 2024 0:26:34 GMT
Here, now, outside, before afterlife, at last two/three religions agree that one must not kill. What are the official bypasses ? In the video below, look at 4:58 to the end.
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Post by Admin on Apr 17, 2024 1:50:36 GMT
How exactly does one spend life acting as if God exists? Presumably as a Christian, you are best placed to answer this. I do the opposite. Evasion noted. I don't know why you're alarmed by people who spend a lot of time in church, but most likely they don't think it's a waste of time.
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Post by Admin on Apr 17, 2024 1:52:29 GMT
The wager assumes a god who requires belief and therefore doesn't apply to any gods who don't. Some say the only unforgivable sin is the rejection of his forgiveness. It's not easy to say Hitler and child molesting priests may be in heaven, but if you ask Lucifer, getting past the gates doesn't necessarily guarantee a permanent residence, let alone one with a license to genocide and unlimited kiddies. But for the purpose of the wager, belief is the only factor. Maybe someone should have told Rasputin that taking God for granted probably isn't the best plan. I'd argue it's a violation of the Commandment that says not to take his name in vain. The wager assumes a god who requires belief and therefore doesn't apply to any gods who don't.Almost all Gods require their belief in them. Many of them demand sacrifice to them. Those that don't aren't gods. Some say the only unforgivable sin is the rejection of his forgiveness. It's not easy to say Hitler and child molesting priests may be in heaven, but if you ask Lucifer, getting past the gates doesn't necessarily guarantee a permanent residence, let alone one with a license to genocide and unlimited kiddies. But for the purpose of the wager, belief is the only factor.
If the only factor is belief, I wonder why all the rules and traditions are there in all religions. In the big three religions, the laws given by Moses are supposedly non-negotiable, especially for Muslims and Jews. Christians for some reason have discarded most of them - except for the gay thing. They encourage bashing them because they are "sinners", as long as it's done in an efficient Christian manner. Let's face it, only God can forgive when it comes to the afterlife; us humans have to guess what that is. Maybe someone should have told Rasputin that taking God for granted probably isn't the best plan. I'd argue it's a violation of the Commandment that says not to take his name in vain. Good point, but the wager strictly says that as long as you have belief, you go to heaven. Theoretically, Jeffery Dahmer is in heaven right now. He became a believer before he was murdered in jail; he was baptized the same time that John Wayne Gacy was executed. As for Dahmer's murders, he was killing gays mostly. The big three love that. Despite what God says in the commandments about murder, religion has never had a problem with that, as long as you are a believer in the right religion. All worthy of discussion, but the wager isn't concerned with morality, religion, or who is and isn't in heaven. You said it yourself: "the wager strictly says that as long as you have belief, you go to heaven." Given that condition, the only question is if it's better to believe than not believe.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Apr 17, 2024 11:05:37 GMT
So my question is: If there is an after-life, who made the decision that belief in Yahweh is the criterion by which our after-life destination is determined? How do we know whether or not the criterion is: If you drink Pepsi, you go to Heaven, but if you drink Coke, you spend eternity listening to fingernails on a chalkboard.
Worth remembering that the wager is part of a much larger work and is not meant to be convincing in itself. Pascal made a lot of writings in defence of Christianity and the wager should be seen more as a 'And if you're still on the fence, maybe this will finally tip you over' type argument.
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The Lost One
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Post by The Lost One on Apr 17, 2024 11:11:54 GMT
...And who says God will honour the wager anyway? It seems to me in its way it tempts the supposed deity in that it makes trial of God, to prove whether He be so true, just, merciful, provident and powerful as His Word reports Him to be - through gambling. Isn't it possible that a god may reward honest disbelief and punish a dishonest belief in the divine? This is my greatest issue with it too. It seems to argue for an incredibly cynical form of belief which to me is a bit of a contradiction in terms. At any rate, it seems to me that the Parable of the wedding banquet (Matt 22:1-14) discourages such thinking: Seems to be saying God will not accept insincere , half-hearted belief.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 17, 2024 11:22:26 GMT
"Presumably as a Christian, you are best placed to answer this." Evasion noted. You really want me to remind of something you ought to be doing already? Seek God, not sin. Amos 5:4. ... Fear God, not men. Proverbs 19:23. ... Love God, not the world. 1 John 2:15-17. ... Believe God, not the deceiver. John 8:44. ... Obey God, not your appetites. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27. ... Serve God, not self. Isaiah 6:8. ... Worship God, not comfort. Habakkuk 3:17-18. Let's not forget to throw in the prayers, church etc besides all this general obsequiousness. I hope that helps and you have all these in hand. Of course away from these, doing good works say can quite easily be done without a belief in God and I would not consider helping others and so on a waste of time. I didn't say I was 'alarmed'. I merely noted the waste of time and effort in the event that their preferred deity does not exist. In Islam for instance, of which prayers are one of the pillars of the faith, they are expected five times a day. But we can certainly both agree that it is odd-on that the devoutly challenged probably don't think it is a waste of time. But then they wouldn't.
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Post by amyghost on Apr 17, 2024 11:59:25 GMT
As I understand it, Pascal's wager is something like:
If you believe in God and you're correct, you will spend eternity in Heaven. If you believe in God and there is no God, you don't care because you're dead.
If you do NOT believe in God and you're wrong, you spend eternity in Hell. If you do NOT believe in God and there is no God, you don't care because you're dead.
The reasoning is, you have little to lose by believing in God and everything to lose if you don't believe in God and you're wrong.
So my question is: If there is an after-life, who made the decision that belief in Yahweh is the criterion by which our after-life destination is determined? How do we know whether or not the criterion is: If you drink Pepsi, you go to Heaven, but if you drink Coke, you spend eternity listening to fingernails on a chalkboard.
On a related note: Why do prisoners get "last rights" as they are being let to their execution after a murder conviction? Does Jehovah welcome mass murderers to His pearly gates just because they believe in Him?
For a soft atheist like me there are at least three objections to Pascal's wager: the first is that it is impossible to make oneself believe if one's doubts are held sincerely. (Hence the argument is probably more attractive to agnostics than others.) Secondly, if God does not exist and one spends the rest of one's life acting as if He did, that is a lot of time and effort spent wasting away the only life one has in self-deception. That is what is lost. And I do care about that. At least I am sure this life exists and is precious. Finally it still does not eliminate the issue of which deity is to be worshipped. Since the evidence for all gods is basically the same, the argument can ultimately be seen as one encouraging false belief. ...And who says God will honour the wager anyway? It seems to me in its way it tempts the supposed deity in that it makes trial of God, to prove whether He be so true, just, merciful, provident and powerful as His Word reports Him to be - through gambling. Isn't it possible that a god may reward honest disbelief and punish a dishonest belief in the divine? Ultimately the wager is just an elaborate way of saying 'believe in God whatever or go to hell', a form of coercion to impel belief which, ironically, Christian on this board have condemned when it is suggested the deity might make Himself known to better effect. I hold the strong suspicion that 'true' believers don't greatly care whether the belief is genuine or not. For them, it's the act of belief that matters (I use the word 'act' in its fullest sense), and if one spends one's life at it it will in someway be sanctified in the end, the god in question not caring if it started out sincerely or no.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 17, 2024 12:04:50 GMT
I hold the strong suspicion that 'true' believers don't greatly care whether the belief is genuine or not. For them, it's the act of belief that matters Yes, it has been observed before that many appear to believe in religion, with all of its comfort, society and panoply, more than they do God.
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