transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 20, 2024 0:16:54 GMT
Aw, you should know me by now. Always looking for authoritative references. From who’s got biding power. Not ”god”. Good general background, missing specific details.Starting at His best with the supposed Genesis flood, we then have God next apparently resolving to destroy the cities Sodom and Gomorrah, then later after killing first-borns, drowning the Pharaoh's army in the red sea, Likewise God later destroys Korah and a group of men rebelling against Moses and Aaron by dropping then into the Earth. Some Israelites commit harlotry with women in Moab, and sacrifice to their gods. Now God is angered, orders executions and sends a plague. God orders Moses to "Harass the Midianites, and smite them", and so the Israelites war against Midian, and "slew every male". They take captive the women and children, and take all cattle, flocks and goods as loot, and burn all cities and camps. Deuteronomy 2:31–37 records the complete extermination of the people ruled by Sihon king of Heshbon. Similar treatment, at Yahweh's alleged command naturally , was given to the people under Og king of Bashan. Moses also recounts how angry God destroyed the followers of Baal-Peor, and threatens to destroy the Israelites if they return to idolatry. Deuteronomy 20 helpfully mandates that if peace is refused, cities far away must be sieged and all males put to the sword; "women, children, livestock, and whatever else is in the city — all its spoil" — may be taken as plunder and kept (implying rape). Any city within the specified inheritance are to be completely exterminated: "…you shall not leave alive anything that breathes. But you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittite and the Amorite, the Canaanite and the Perizzite, the Hivite and the Jebusite, as the Lord your God has commanded you…" exempting, er, only fruit trees.. Because of the orders to completely destroy the enemy on such occasions, many scholars have, reasonably enough, characterized these as others have, as divine commands to commit genocide. We might also include the story of the Amalekites and the battle of Jericho not forgetting characters like Phinehas (Num. 25), Elijah (1 kg. 18:39–40; 2 kg. 1), and Elisha (2 kg. 2:23–25; 9) also killed, ordered killing, participated in killing and foretold killing, all in the name of God. Today no doubt they would be flying planes into buildings. And so on and so forth. The Bible is your 'authoritative reference'. But now I am bored with relaying all these things which you ought to know about already. Since I don't want to rehash recent arguments I will leave it there, but you might wish to know that philosophers generally have not taken kindly to Command Theory, ultimately a form of special pleading, and something which leads apologists into uncomfortable moral positions. I hope it helps. But, as you say, I know you by now.. Your narration, the way you write it, at last, is very funny. I recall a book parody of the bible* I read last year. It is so witty that the way the story is summarized is almost better than the bible itself. I reflected than the writer of the parody might have been only intent on entertaining, but his research was reflecting in the final work, very deep and extended. Mind you, when I draw the face of someone again and again, searching for every bit of detail that can catch light or not, I can’t deny the subject of my drawing is not abhorrent or repelling to me. You write you know me so here’s something you don’t : I have not yet decided if actually what you claim you are is a fact or a tale. You are innocent until proven guilty, just the same as us, brother. And, well, I told you I am a lawyer by training. Not a philosopher. I know there supposedly is a link in some cultures, but my basic training is atypical. My asking for references is a call for objectivity, nothing else. It’s one thing to read in a law something, but without any decree, it’s just litterature. Off the record. 💋 * Les écritures-Cavanna François
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 20, 2024 0:37:09 GMT
Admin, please, don’t get riled. 💋🤯
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 20, 2024 0:51:03 GMT
So, technically - thanks to film flaneur, waiting for decrees, excepting Moses, Aaron, the criminals who got against Moab, the exterminators of the people ruled by Sihon king of Heshbon, king of Bashan and of the followers of Baal-Peor, of the Hittite and the Amorite, of the Canaanite and the Perizzite, of the Hivite and the Jebusite and of the Amalekites and the people of Jericho who acted all in the name of God, no , mass murderers do not go to heaven. Murdering your contemporaries is wrong.
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Post by Admin on Apr 20, 2024 5:07:48 GMT
Admin, please, don’t get riled. 💋🤯 I'm not riled, but it's interesting that you think I am. It's because I said a naughty word, isn't it?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 20, 2024 11:26:34 GMT
Starting at His best with the supposed Genesis flood... Since I don't want to rehash recent arguments I will leave it there, but you might wish to know that philosophers generally have not taken kindly to Command Theory, ultimately a form of special pleading, and something which leads apologists into uncomfortable moral positions. I hope it helps. But, as you say, I know you by now.. Your narration, the way you write it, at last, is very funny. Yes, the Bible can be quite amusing at times. There is however little to laugh at in accounts of genocide, mass killings, rape and mutilation. Fortunately, a good deal of early scripture is the former. Which is why I posted what I did largely without comment, just as it is. None of which I note you dispute.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 20, 2024 11:32:06 GMT
So, technically - thanks to film flaneur, waiting for decrees, excepting Moses, Aaron, the criminals who got against Moab, the exterminators of the people ruled by Sihon king of Heshbon, king of Bashan and of the followers of Baal-Peor, of the Hittite and the Amorite, of the Canaanite and the Perizzite, of the Hivite and the Jebusite and of the Amalekites and the people of Jericho who acted all in the name of God, no , mass murderers do not go to heaven. Murdering your contemporaries is wrong. Why, but lo and behold, this is good old Command Theory, back again in all its moral questionability. As I said before, I don't want to rehearse the arguments all over again and the uncomfortable places it always leaves apologists in. So good luck with justifying mass murder, rape and mutilation, bombings or flying planes into buildings come that, whether by God or for Him. Looks like you have found a main one LOL
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 20, 2024 11:46:53 GMT
I am not confused, my insightful friend, since I agreed with you on this point. Remember? I will stop wasting time now, but as a believer what you do with yours through all these tit-for-tats of course is entirely up to you. It sort of proves one detrimental effect the Wager has on believers though, doesn't it? just more of your irrelevant, convoluted bullshit and not worthy of response. Well, you certainly sound riled..
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 20, 2024 12:02:08 GMT
Admin, please, don’t get riled. 💋🤯 I'm not riled, but it's interesting that you think I am. It's because I said a naughty word, isn't it? Oh, well, a little bit of naughty is better than nothing I suppose. Saints are boring creatures, though evil is although boring. Either that or I’m getting jealous over you two’s chemistry.
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 20, 2024 12:08:12 GMT
So, technically - thanks to film flaneur, waiting for decrees, excepting Moses, Aaron, the criminals who got against Moab, the exterminators of the people ruled by Sihon king of Heshbon, king of Bashan and of the followers of Baal-Peor, of the Hittite and the Amorite, of the Canaanite and the Perizzite, of the Hivite and the Jebusite and of the Amalekites and the people of Jericho who acted all in the name of God, no , mass murderers do not go to heaven. Murdering your contemporaries is wrong. Why, but lo and behold, this is good old Command Theory, back again in all its moral questionability. As I said before, I don't want to rehearse the arguments all over again and the uncomfortable places it always leaves apologists in. So good luck with justifying mass murder, rape and mutilation, bombings or flying planes into buildings come that, whether by God or for Him. Looks like you have found a main one LOL Er, that’s the same thing I wrote in my reply to the op, with the ”references” you provided and a small warning about their lack of objectivity, so I do not see where you’re going here. Sorry.
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 20, 2024 12:20:04 GMT
Your narration, the way you write it, at last, is very funny. Yes, the Bible can be quite amusing at times. There is however little to laugh at in accounts of genocide, mass killings, rape and mutilation. Fortunately, a good deal of early scripture is the former. Which is why I posted what I did largely without comment, just as it is. None of which I note you dispute. Well, it happens there is to laugh about it. The reference is to be found in the original post. I can even translate the book to you. There’s no chance the scriptures are about you Flaneur. The ”atheist” you. But I grant you the privilege of innocence until proven guilt of yours. You say you are an atheist. OK. And you spend hours quoting the ... scriptures which minds you researched these instead of doing smtg normal people do. Allrighty. Just as if you were about to live forever or get an extra bonus as dr Faust does. Fine. You provide references. I quote you. But there is a warning in my Post. 💋
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 20, 2024 12:26:50 GMT
Why, but lo and behold, this is good old Command Theory, back again in all its moral questionability. As I said before, I don't want to rehearse the arguments all over again and the uncomfortable places it always leaves apologists in. So good luck with justifying mass murder, rape and mutilation, bombings or flying planes into buildings come that, whether by God or for Him. Looks like you have found a main one LOL Er, that’s the same thing I wrote in my reply to the op, with the ”references” you provided and a small warning about their lack of objectivity, so I do not see where you’re going here. Sorry. If by this you mean you intended to condemn the mass killings etc all done in the name of God, then sorry I misunderstood (although I highlighted where it looks like you mean otherwise) and would perforce agree with you. It is certainly hard to excuse such events and maintain any notions of objective morality.
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 20, 2024 12:29:47 GMT
Er, that’s the same thing I wrote in my reply to the op, with the ”references” you provided and a small warning about their lack of objectivity, so I do not see where you’re going here. Sorry. If by this you mean you intended to condemn the mass killings etc all done in the name of God, then sorry I misunderstood (although I highlighted where it looks like you mean otherwise) and would perforce agree with you. It is certainly hard to excuse such events and maintain any notions of objective morality. Sorry, I’ll be back on this. Till later !
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 20, 2024 12:30:53 GMT
Yes, the Bible can be quite amusing at times. There is however little to laugh at in accounts of genocide, mass killings, rape and mutilation. Fortunately, a good deal of early scripture is the former. Which is why I posted what I did largely without comment, just as it is. None of which I note you dispute. Well, it happens there is to laugh about it. The reference is to be found in the original post. I can even translate the book to you. There’s no chance the scriptures are about you Flaneur. The ”atheist” you. But I grant you the privilege of innocence until proven guilt of yours. You say you are an atheist. OK. And you spend hours quoting the ... scriptures which minds you researched these instead of doing smtg normal people do. Allrighty. Just as if you were about to live forever or get an extra bonus as dr Faust does. Fine. You provide references. I quote you. But there is a warning in my Post. 💋 Sorry as usual I have no idea what you are on about here. But now it appears you condemn mass murder rape and torture after all, that's "doing smtg normal people do" its good enough for me (and a relief to others, I am sure)
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 20, 2024 12:33:39 GMT
Well, it happens there is to laugh about it. The reference is to be found in the original post. I can even translate the book to you. There’s no chance the scriptures are about you Flaneur. The ”atheist” you. But I grant you the privilege of innocence until proven guilt of yours. You say you are an atheist. OK. And you spend hours quoting the ... scriptures which minds you researched these instead of doing smtg normal people do. Allrighty. Just as if you were about to live forever or get an extra bonus as dr Faust does. Fine. You provide references. I quote you. But there is a warning in my Post. 💋 Sorry as usual I have no idea what you are on about here. But now it appears you condemn mass murder rape and torture, that's "doing smtg normal people do" its good enough for me (and a relief to others, I am sure) Good thg I gotta go. Extra time for you. Reading, live, learn. Or maybe watch telly, get a pint, play football. Enjoy life, Flaneur. It’s not that long.
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Post by Admin on Apr 20, 2024 18:07:44 GMT
just more of your irrelevant, convoluted bullshit and not worthy of response. Well, you certainly sound riled.. And so with that ad hom, you are officially 100% completely and utterly off topic. Thanks for the chat.
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Apr 20, 2024 19:53:37 GMT
In the video below, look at 4:58 to the end. He says it’s okay to kill the people who pray to another god. Now, what is the ground on the record for this ? The OP said all one needs is faith in order to get to heaven. If you are a true believer in the right God, you go to heaven. If not, that's discussed. Neither is the fact that you do kill, you are a murderer. It isn't mentioned how that would affect you going to heaven.
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Post by jimmyboy on Apr 20, 2024 20:00:53 GMT
The wager assumes a god who requires belief and therefore doesn't apply to any gods who don't.Almost all Gods require their belief in them. Many of them demand sacrifice to them. Those that don't aren't gods. Some say the only unforgivable sin is the rejection of his forgiveness. It's not easy to say Hitler and child molesting priests may be in heaven, but if you ask Lucifer, getting past the gates doesn't necessarily guarantee a permanent residence, let alone one with a license to genocide and unlimited kiddies. But for the purpose of the wager, belief is the only factor.
If the only factor is belief, I wonder why all the rules and traditions are there in all religions. In the big three religions, the laws given by Moses are supposedly non-negotiable, especially for Muslims and Jews. Christians for some reason have discarded most of them - except for the gay thing. They encourage bashing them because they are "sinners", as long as it's done in an efficient Christian manner. Let's face it, only God can forgive when it comes to the afterlife; us humans have to guess what that is. Maybe someone should have told Rasputin that taking God for granted probably isn't the best plan. I'd argue it's a violation of the Commandment that says not to take his name in vain. Good point, but the wager strictly says that as long as you have belief, you go to heaven. Theoretically, Jeffery Dahmer is in heaven right now. He became a believer before he was murdered in jail; he was baptized the same time that John Wayne Gacy was executed. As for Dahmer's murders, he was killing gays mostly. The big three love that. Despite what God says in the commandments about murder, religion has never had a problem with that, as long as you are a believer in the right religion. All worthy of discussion, but the wager isn't concerned with morality, religion, or who is and isn't in heaven. You said it yourself: "the wager strictly says that as long as you have belief, you go to heaven." Given that condition, the only question is if it's better to believe than not believe. I'm glad that's settled. Now I am going to commit more crimes, sins and atrocities than Stalin, Hitler, Paul Bernardo, Russell Williams, Charles Manson and Bernie Madoff combined. I'll have Clusium baptize me and become a Christian. Then all is forgiven and I go to heaven.....unless God likes Jewish people only. Then I go to Heck to party with the rest of humanity.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 20, 2024 20:26:22 GMT
Well, you certainly sound riled.. And so with that ad hom, you are officially 100% completely and utterly off topic. Thanks for the chat. I said you sound riled, echoing Transfuged's earlier concern after you swore at me, not that you are. See the difference? Also, if you really think being called annoyed or irritated is an insult, then you need to get out more. Are you going to argue about this now, too? You're welcome.
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Post by Admin on Apr 20, 2024 20:40:59 GMT
All worthy of discussion, but the wager isn't concerned with morality, religion, or who is and isn't in heaven. You said it yourself: "the wager strictly says that as long as you have belief, you go to heaven." Given that condition, the only question is if it's better to believe than not believe. I'm glad that's settled. Now I am going to commit more crimes, sins and atrocities than Stalin, Hitler, Paul Bernardo, Russell Williams, Charles Manson and Bernie Madoff combined. I'll have Clusium baptize me and become a Christian. Then all is forgiven and I go to heaven.....unless God likes Jewish people only. Then I go to Heck to party with the rest of humanity. Maybe someone should tell you that taking God for granted probably isn't the best plan.
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Apr 20, 2024 20:59:09 GMT
I'm glad that's settled. Now I am going to commit more crimes, sins and atrocities than Stalin, Hitler, Paul Bernardo, Russell Williams, Charles Manson and Bernie Madoff combined. I'll have Clusium baptize me and become a Christian. Then all is forgiven and I go to heaven.....unless God likes Jewish people only. Then I go to Heck to party with the rest of humanity. Maybe someone should tell you that taking God for granted probably isn't the best plan. Noted. It's also noteworthy to say that Pascal's wager as pointed out is full of holes.
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