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Post by amyghost on Apr 20, 2024 23:19:30 GMT
I'm glad that's settled. Now I am going to commit more crimes, sins and atrocities than Stalin, Hitler, Paul Bernardo, Russell Williams, Charles Manson and Bernie Madoff combined. I'll have Clusium baptize me and become a Christian. Then all is forgiven and I go to heaven.....unless God likes Jewish people only. Then I go to Heck to party with the rest of humanity. Maybe someone should tell you that taking God for granted probably isn't the best plan. Why not?
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Post by clusium on Apr 20, 2024 23:27:15 GMT
All worthy of discussion, but the wager isn't concerned with morality, religion, or who is and isn't in heaven. You said it yourself: "the wager strictly says that as long as you have belief, you go to heaven." Given that condition, the only question is if it's better to believe than not believe. I'm glad that's settled. Now I am going to commit more crimes, sins and atrocities than Stalin, Hitler, Paul Bernardo, Russell Williams, Charles Manson and Bernie Madoff combined. I'll have Clusium baptize me and become a Christian. Then all is forgiven and I go to heaven.....unless God likes Jewish people only. Then I go to Heck to party with the rest of humanity. None of those people, as far as I know were even remotely Christian. Actually, at least 2 of Bernardo's murder victims were from devoutly Christian families (one was Catholic, as a matter of fact).
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jimmyboy
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Post by jimmyboy on Apr 21, 2024 1:33:22 GMT
I'm glad that's settled. Now I am going to commit more crimes, sins and atrocities than Stalin, Hitler, Paul Bernardo, Russell Williams, Charles Manson and Bernie Madoff combined. I'll have Clusium baptize me and become a Christian. Then all is forgiven and I go to heaven.....unless God likes Jewish people only. Then I go to Heck to party with the rest of humanity. None of those people, as far as I know were even remotely Christian. Actually, at least of Bernardo's murder victims were from devoutly Christian families (one was Catholic, as a matter of fact). If these people were devout Christians, would it excuse their evil deeds. Obviously not, but according to OP's explanation of Pascals' wager it would.
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Post by clusium on Apr 21, 2024 3:32:29 GMT
None of those people, as far as I know were even remotely Christian. Actually, at least 2 of Bernardo's murder victims were from devoutly Christian families (one was Catholic, as a matter of fact). If these people were devout Christians, would it excuse their evil deeds. Obviously not, but according to OP's explanation of Pascals' wager it would. Wagering that there Is a God, means wagering that we must live by & obey His Commandments. The atheist who does not believe in Him will not choose to live by & obey His Commandments (with the noted exceptions of those Commandments that are also the Commandments of one's own country, etc. such as not killing or stealing, etc).
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 21, 2024 9:51:42 GMT
Well, it happens there is to laugh about it. The reference is to be found in the original post. I can even translate the book to you. There’s no chance the scriptures are about you Flaneur. The ”atheist” you. But I grant you the privilege of innocence until proven guilt of yours. You say you are an atheist. OK. And you spend hours quoting the ... scriptures which minds you researched these instead of doing smtg normal people do. Allrighty. Just as if you were about to live forever or get an extra bonus as dr Faust does. Fine. You provide references. I quote you. But there is a warning in my Post. 💋 Sorry as usual I have no idea what you are on about here. But now it appears you condemn mass murder rape and torture after all, that's "doing smtg normal people do" its good enough for me (and a relief to others, I am sure) Don’t.be.ridiculous.💋
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 21, 2024 10:20:42 GMT
Sorry as usual I have no idea what you are on about here. But now it appears you condemn mass murder rape and torture after all, that's "doing smtg normal people do" its good enough for me (and a relief to others, I am sure) Don’t.be.ridiculous.💋 Oh, so you don't condemn it after all? You sure offer a moving target lol
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Post by transfuged on Apr 21, 2024 11:34:44 GMT
Oh, so you don't condemn it after all? You sure offer a moving target lol I’m sorry about the lame way you use as an evading tactic. Pascal wager is not about you. The time you spend researching something you claim you oppose is about you. Trying to mix the two issues in order to evade critics is not going to work. And it bores the other posters. Now, about Pascal and only Pascal. He thought that man could not manipulate God’s will with mundane behavior and I can see his point. God is god, man is not. The creature has to obey. That is St augustin again. What the creature can expect is that God is not a badass and god’s heart is full of love and wrong doer can get pardon. But that’s not comfortable. When I write that murder is wrong, I am opposing Pascal and grace. That is not only me, though. Actually, in the text, Pascal wager does not deal with ”grâce”. Someone wrote above that taking God for granted might not be sure... The reformist Christians were annoyed at the other Christians on the point of ”indulgences”. The church was actually selling tickets granting pardon and acces to salute. I can quite understand that it feels wrong and discriminatory. Because the poor is not issued the same capacity as the rich even in the afterlife. Now, actually, that business of indulgences is nothing but penpushing and imho it’s not something to have feelings about. It’s paper. When there is a code and someone did something wrong and truly regrets, money or not money should not make a difference in the eye of God. God is not a supermarket cashier. So having feelings about the issue is not recommended. People want to think they can buy salute ? They have money ? Well, good for them. That’s their own business. The good poor Christian still is a good Christian. As I am an agnostic, I don’t enter the wager btw.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 21, 2024 12:45:25 GMT
Oh, so you don't condemn it after all? You sure offer a moving target lol I’m sorry about the lame way you use as an evading tactic. I am not sure what it is I am supposed to be evading, when I have considered the Wager in detail. This is not true; the Wager is clearly for every individual to consider (at least those who do not currently believe in God) and so theoretically it is for me to consider as much as anyone else. I disagree. Such alleged aspects of your God are very comforting indeed and one of the reasons why religion does well. As for God's heart "being full of love" one might wish to read the list of His alleged appalling actions and by those who justify the worst though executing His will I listed earlier, to see how that love is sometimes hard to make out. Quite right; most people would say murder, genocide mass killing etc is wrong, as I hoped you would, from the start. Back then however you wrote " excepting ...the criminals... the exterminators.. [all] ... who acted all in the name of God, no , mass murderers do not go to heaven." remember? A lot of this seems frankly irrelevant. The feeling is that, overall, you are rambling again. The church certainly did have a reprehensible idea of selling forgiveness, and such corruption helped to trigger the Reformation. But the Wager is not selling anything, money does not change hands. It is just an argument for gambling with faith, open to the rich and the poor alike to consider. As far as I can determine, as said already the Wager is aimed exactly at atheists and people like you. But as the common problems and objections to it show, it is something probably best regarded as a thought experiment rather than potential for a life changing decision.
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 21, 2024 13:08:59 GMT
I’m sorry about the lame way you use as an evading tactic. I am not sure what it is I am supposed to be evading, when I have considered the Wager in detail. And say what you like but I am still unsure whether you support mass killings, rape and etc on behalf of God or not. Could that be evasion? But as you won't or feel unable to make it clear, and it is not on topic, I will leave it there, after I think making my point. At least I know where I stand. i.e. that genocide is always bad. This is not true; the Wager is clearly for every individual to consider (at least those who do not currently believe in God) and so theoretically it is for me to consider as much as anyone else. I disagree. Such alleged aspects of your God are very comforting indeed and one of the reasons why religion does well. As for God's heart "being full of love" one might wish to read the list of His alleged appalling actions and by those who justify the worst though executing His will I listed earlier, to see how that love is sometimes hard to make out. Quite right; most people would say murder is wrong. A lot of this seems frankly irrelevant. The feeling is that, overall, you are rambling again. The church certainly did have a reprehensible idea of selling forgiveness, and such corruption helped to trigger the Reformation. But the Wager is not selling anything, money does not change hands. It is just an argument for gambling with faith, open to the rich and the poor alike to consider. As far as I can determine, as said already the Wager is aimed exactly at atheists and people like you. But as the common problems and objections to it show, it is something probably best regarded as a thought experiment rather than potential for a life changing decision. Oh, you think it is written somewhere that you actually are an atheist? Where ?
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 21, 2024 13:14:46 GMT
I’m sorry about the lame way you use as an evading tactic. I am not sure what it is I am supposed to be evading, when I have considered the Wager in detail. This is not true; the Wager is clearly for every individual to consider (at least those who do not currently believe in God) and so theoretically it is for me to consider as much as anyone else. I disagree. Such alleged aspects of your God are very comforting indeed and one of the reasons why religion does well. As for God's heart "being full of love" one might wish to read the list of His alleged appalling actions and by those who justify the worst though executing His will I listed earlier, to see how that love is sometimes hard to make out. Quite right; most people would say murder, genocide mass killing etc is wrong, as I hoped you would, from the start. Back then however you wrote "excepting ...the criminals... the exterminators.. [all] ... who acted all in the name of God, no , mass murderers do not go to heaven." remember? A lot of this seems frankly irrelevant. The feeling is that, overall, you are rambling again. The church certainly did have a reprehensible idea of selling forgiveness, and such corruption helped to trigger the Reformation. But the Wager is not selling anything, money does not change hands. It is just an argument for gambling with faith, open to the rich and the poor alike to consider. As far as I can determine, as said already the Wager is aimed exactly at atheists and people like you. But as the common problems and objections to it show, it is something probably best regarded as a thought experiment rather than potential for a life changing decision. Seeming is your great forte. Everytime something bothers you, you disfigure it and try to accuse the poster with imaginary wrongs. Suits you. That is you Litterature after all. My post was quite clear. Kisses.
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Post by amyghost on Apr 21, 2024 13:21:42 GMT
I'm glad that's settled. Now I am going to commit more crimes, sins and atrocities than Stalin, Hitler, Paul Bernardo, Russell Williams, Charles Manson and Bernie Madoff combined. I'll have Clusium baptize me and become a Christian. Then all is forgiven and I go to heaven.....unless God likes Jewish people only. Then I go to Heck to party with the rest of humanity. None of those people, as far as I know were even remotely Christian. Actually, at least 2 of Bernardo's murder victims were from devoutly Christian families (one was Catholic, as a matter of fact). Hitler identified as a Catholic. He originally embraced Christian ideals, and though he later abandoned them, he continued to see Christianity as a useful tool for combatting the Jewish 'enemy'. He also had disdain for atheists and atheism. Several notorious serial killers, Ted Bundy among them, were raised as Christians, some of them in quite devout homes--so devout, in fact, that child abuse, cloaked as Christian child-rearing, helped to warp them psychologically. Many serial and single murderers have indeed identified as devout Christians. Because no one would label their homicidal deeds as Christian does not mean they were not raised in the faith and often felt themselves a part of it even after committing their crimes. And in the cases of Catholic devout who were murderers, I know of no instance of Church excommunication of any of them for their acts. www.google.com/search?q=serial+killers+who+were+Christians&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS879US879&oq=serial+killers+who+were+Christians&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgWGB4yDQgCEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgDEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgEEAAYhgMYgAQYigXSAQoxMTM3OGowajE1qAIIsAIB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
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Post by clusium on Apr 21, 2024 16:56:37 GMT
None of those people, as far as I know were even remotely Christian. Actually, at least 2 of Bernardo's murder victims were from devoutly Christian families (one was Catholic, as a matter of fact). Hitler identified as a Catholic. He originally embraced Christian ideals, and though he later abandoned them, he continued to see Christianity as a useful tool for combatting the Jewish 'enemy'. He also had disdain for atheists and atheism. Several notorious serial killers, Ted Bundy among them, were raised as Christians, some of them in quite devout homes--so devout, in fact, that child abuse, cloaked as Christian child-rearing, helped to warp them psychologically. Many serial and single murderers have identified as devout Christians, in fact. Because no one would label their homicidal deeds as Christian does not mean they were not raised in the faith and often felt themselves a part of it even after committing their crimes. And in the cases of Catholic devout who were murderers, I know of no instance of Church excommunication of any of them for their acts. www.google.com/search?q=serial+killers+who+were+Christians&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS879US879&oq=serial+killers+who+were+Christians&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIICAEQABgWGB4yDQgCEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgDEAAYhgMYgAQYigUyDQgEEAAYhgMYgAQYigXSAQoxMTM3OGowajE1qAIIsAIB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8Hitler was raised Catholic. But, he ultimately rejected Catholicism - as well as Christianity in general -for the occult, Eastern religions, & Teutonic heathenism. He had many Christian clergy - both Catholic & Protestant alike - sent to the prison camps, & even wanted to have the Pope forcefully taken from the Vatican & sent to one as well. The afore-mentioned Paul Bernardo was an agnostic. Alex Minassian who was although Armenian descent, was never raised in the Christian faith, grew to become an atheist.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 21, 2024 17:39:47 GMT
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 21, 2024 17:44:46 GMT
Seeming is your great forte. Everytime something bothers you, you disfigure it and try to accuse the poster with imaginary wrongs. Thank you for your detailed rebuttal to my last post and for attacking me, and not what I say. Your posts, unfortunately, are rarely that.
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 21, 2024 19:42:11 GMT
Seeming is your great forte. Everytime something bothers you, you disfigure it and try to accuse the poster with imaginary wrongs. Thank you for your detailed rebuttal to my last post and for attacking me, and not what I say. Your posts, unfortunately, are rarely that. Prove it, please.
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 21, 2024 19:44:01 GMT
ACTUALLY, adverb. (modal) In act or in fact; really; in truth; positively. ACTUALLY, adverb. (obsolete) actively
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 21, 2024 20:24:17 GMT
ACTUALLY, adverb. (modal) In act or in fact; really; in truth; positively. ACTUALLY, adverb. (obsolete) actively This was you, just earlier, right? "You say you are an atheist. OK." Now, for some reason it is no longer 'OK' after all. Would you say then now that I am not a true atheist?
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 21, 2024 20:28:59 GMT
Thank you for your detailed rebuttal to my last post and for attacking me, and not what I say. Your posts, unfortunately, are rarely that. Prove it, please. Think of the number of times previously I have told you how hard to read it is what you write in the past. The last time this occurred in fact my post got two likes. imdb2.freeforums.net/post/6071696. I remember once when your use of different colours and poor format made a long message all but incomprehensible. But perhaps I overstate; I should have put "Your posts are often not that". Now I appreciate that your language is not English (I hope) and I am not attacking you, note, but your often jumbled prose. Ultimately the problems with grammar, spelling and sense remain constant. EG "And you spend hours quoting the ... scriptures which minds you researched these instead of doing smtg normal people do. Allrighty. Just as if you were about to live forever or get an extra bonus as dr Faust does. Fine. " Allrighty?
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 21, 2024 21:57:08 GMT
ACTUALLY, adverb. (modal) In act or in fact; really; in truth; positively. ACTUALLY, adverb. (obsolete) actively This was you, just earlier, right? "You say you are an atheist. OK." Now, for some reason it is no longer 'OK' after all. Would you say then now that I am not a true atheist? I can sing it, say it, still that would not be a proof. Doubt, dear. You should know, it’s in your signature.
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transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 21, 2024 22:00:52 GMT
Think of the number of times previously I have told you how hard to read it is what you write in the past. The last time this occurred in fact my post got two likes. imdb2.freeforums.net/post/6071696. I remember once when your use of different colours and poor format made a long message all but incomprehensible. But perhaps I overstate; I should have put "Your posts are often that". Now I appreciate that your language is not English (I hope) and I am not attacking you, note, but your often jumbled prose. Ultimately the problems with grammar, spelling and sense remain constant. EG "And you spend hours quoting the ... scriptures which minds you researched these instead of doing smtg normal people do. Allrighty. Just as if you were about to live forever or get an extra bonus as dr Faust does. Fine. " Allrighty? You ask for doubt then you cry woolf when you are the subject of doubt ? Erm... Get serious! Please ! What was unclear in my Post here before you shredded it into pieces that suit you ?
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