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Post by Rodney Farber on Apr 17, 2024 22:45:21 GMT
..... Almost all Gods require their belief in them. Many of them demand sacrifice to them. Those that don't aren't gods. ..... A God cannot survive as a memory. They need love, admiration, worship, as humans need food. If, for example, all Jehovah's Witnesses were to suddenly drop dead, then Jehovah, himself, would cease to exist. Think of it: Zeus, Thor, Poseidon, are no longer alive. They have been relegated to the history books.
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Post by Admin on Apr 17, 2024 23:03:02 GMT
"Presumably as a Christian, you are best placed to answer this." Evasion noted. You really want me to remind of something you ought to be doing already? Seek God, not sin. Amos 5:4. ... Fear God, not men. Proverbs 19:23. ... Love God, not the world. 1 John 2:15-17. ... Believe God, not the deceiver. John 8:44. ... Obey God, not your appetites. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27. ... Serve God, not self. Isaiah 6:8. ... Worship God, not comfort. Habakkuk 3:17-18. Let's not forget to throw in the prayers, church etc besides all this general obsequiousness. I hope that helps and you have all these in hand. Of course away from these, doing good works say can quite easily be done without a belief in God and I would not consider helping others and so on a waste of time. I didn't say I was 'alarmed'. I merely noted the waste of time and effort in the event that their preferred deity does not exist. In Islam for instance, of which prayers are one of the pillars of the faith, they are expected five times a day. But we can certainly both agree that it is odd-on that the devoutly challenged probably don't think it is a waste of time. But then they wouldn't. It's their time to waste, but what I'm not understanding is why you say it's a bad thing to do. Perhaps you could explain it without being asked a third time.
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Post by Admin on Apr 17, 2024 23:05:05 GMT
..... Almost all Gods require their belief in them. Many of them demand sacrifice to them. Those that don't aren't gods. ..... A God cannot survive as a memory. They need love, admiration, worship, as humans need food. If, for example, all Jehovah's Witnesses were to suddenly drop dead, then Jehovah, himself, would cease to exist. Think of it: Zeus, Thor, Poseidon, are no longer alive. They have been relegated to the history books. Surely if something exists, it will continue to exist regardless of whether or not anyone believes it does. You're speaking as if we can just wish things into existence like magic.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 17, 2024 23:14:40 GMT
It's their time to waste, but what I'm not understanding is why you say it's a bad thing to do. Perhaps you could explain it without being asked a third time. Since you have only just acknowledged a belief in God can lead to waste, my very point, and showing you understand my objection then that's a QED and enough for me.
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Post by Admin on Apr 17, 2024 23:34:50 GMT
It's their time to waste, but what I'm not understanding is why you say it's a bad thing to do. Perhaps you could explain it without being asked a third time. But you haven't asked me this before. And I have not specifically called it a 'bad thing' - merely one argument against the Wager. As for explaining anything, since you have only just acknowledged a belief in God can lead to waste, my very point, then that's a QED and enough for me. It was my first reply to you in this thread. In response to the question of why it's a bad thing to live life as if God exists, you said it would be a waste of time and effort if he doesn't. That doesn't explain why it's a bad thing, and nothing in that list does, either. You'd probably fare better in this chat if you bring Andrea Yates into it, given that we both agree that it's not a waste of time to the believers. Say, have you ever considering posting without the QED-tinted glasses?
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transfuged
Sophomore
@transfuged
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Post by transfuged on Apr 17, 2024 23:52:39 GMT
Here, now, outside, before afterlife, at last two/three religions agree that one must not kill. What are the official bypasses ? In the video below, look at 4:58 to the end. He says it’s okay to kill the people who pray to another god. Now, what is the ground on the record for this ?
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Post by captainbryce on Apr 17, 2024 23:54:50 GMT
A God cannot survive as a memory. They need love, admiration, worship, as humans need food. If, for example, all Jehovah's Witnesses were to suddenly drop dead, then Jehovah, himself, would cease to exist. Think of it: Zeus, Thor, Poseidon, are no longer alive. They have been relegated to the history books. Surely if something exists, it will continue to exist regardless of whether or not anyone believes it does. You're speaking as if we can just wish things into existence like magic. Because most of you do! If you’re a Bible believing Christian you absolutely believe in magic, use magical thinking in your reasoning, and use “prayer” in an attempt to change reality via God magic. (And I dare you to try to deny or argue against any of this). Christians futile attempts to distance themselves from magic never ceases to amuse me. It is as absurd as it is demonstrative of cognitive dissonance.
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Post by Admin on Apr 18, 2024 0:04:15 GMT
Surely if something exists, it will continue to exist regardless of whether or not anyone believes it does. You're speaking as if we can just wish things into existence like magic. Because most of you do! If you’re a Bible believing Christian you absolutely believe in magic, use magical thinking in your reasoning, and use “prayer” in an attempt to change reality via God magic. (And I dare you to try to deny or argue against any of this). Christians futile attempts to distance themselves from magic never ceases to amuse me. It is as absurd as it is demonstrative of cognitive dissonance. I'm not the one speaking as if we can just wish things into existence like mag- ... wait. What's magic?
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Post by captainbryce on Apr 18, 2024 0:09:43 GMT
As I understand it, Pascal's wager is something like: If you believe in God and you're correct, you will spend eternity in Heaven. If you believe in God and there is no God, you don't care because you're dead. If you do NOT believe in God and you're wrong, you spend eternity in Hell. If you do NOT believe in God and there is no God, you don't care because you're dead. The reasoning is, you have little to lose by believing in God and everything to lose if you don't believe in God and you're wrong. So my question is: If there is an after-life, who made the decision that belief in Yahweh is the criterion by which our after-life destination is determined? How do we know whether or not the criterion is: If you drink Pepsi, you go to Heaven, but if you drink Coke, you spend eternity listening to fingernails on a chalkboard. On a related note: Why do prisoners get "last rights" as they are being let to their execution after a murder conviction? Does Jehovah welcome mass murderers to His pearly gates just because they believe in Him?
It's impossible for a Christian to be intellectually honest on this question. They will either AVOID the problems associated with this fallacious reasoning (because of their own irrational fears), or they are genuinely too dense and lack the cognitive capacity to evaluate this logically. The short answer to your question (biblically speaking) is “yes” AND “no” because the Bible contradicts itself on this very issue. So it depends on WHO is speaking in the Bible (Paul vs James) and it depends on which version of “Jesus” you believe (synoptic Jesus or John’s Jesus). This is why you have many different denominations of Christianity that have doctrines on salvation which significantly contradict each other.
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Post by captainbryce on Apr 18, 2024 0:12:36 GMT
Because most of you do! If you’re a Bible believing Christian you absolutely believe in magic, use magical thinking in your reasoning, and use “prayer” in an attempt to change reality via God magic. (And I dare you to try to deny or argue against any of this). Christians futile attempts to distance themselves from magic never ceases to amuse me. It is as absurd as it is demonstrative of cognitive dissonance. I'm not the one speaking as if we can just wish things into existence like mag- ... wait. What's magic? If you don’t know what magic is then why did you use magic as part of an argument? How can you deny something you claim to not know the definition of?
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Post by Admin on Apr 18, 2024 1:12:00 GMT
I'm not the one speaking as if we can just wish things into existence like mag- ... wait. What's magic? If you don’t know what magic is then why did you use magic as part of an argument? How can you deny something you claim to not know the definition of? The argument is that if something exists, it's going to exist regardless of whether or not anyone believes it. "As if by magic" is a fairly common phrase that means "in a very surprising or seemingly impossible way." I don't know about you, but I would be very surprised if someone were to believe something into (and out of) existence. At any rate, the definition of "magic" has no bearing on the argument, but if I'm going to accept your dare, I'll need to know what you meant by it, especially given the fact that you zeroed in on it so passionately. Or, we could just forgo the semantic diversions and get back on track... Since there are people who believe God exists and people who don't, do you suppose that means he's both existent and nonexistent? Let's say he exists and all the theists in the world stopped believing. What happens then? Does he stop existing as Rodney said? Surely you see the problem with the claim that something only exists when someone believes it does, even without calling it magic.
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transfuged
Sophomore
@transfuged
Posts: 955
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Post by transfuged on Apr 18, 2024 6:55:52 GMT
..... Almost all Gods require their belief in them. Many of them demand sacrifice to them. Those that don't aren't gods. ..... A God cannot survive as a memory. They need love, admiration, worship, as humans need food. If, for example, all Jehovah's Witnesses were to suddenly drop dead, then Jehovah, himself, would cease to exist. Think of it: Zeus, Thor, Poseidon, are no longer alive. They have been relegated to the history books. Say god met his/she’s/it’s untimely demise... Why would heaven stop to exist ?
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Post by amyghost on Apr 18, 2024 11:42:18 GMT
I hold the strong suspicion that 'true' believers don't greatly care whether the belief is genuine or not. For them, it's the act of belief that matters Yes, it has been observed before that many appear to believe in religion, with all of its comfort, society and panoply, more than they do God. It's a pity Admin wasn't around in Scholasticisms' heyday; granted, he'd have had to live without the internet, but I could surely see him getting a lot of mileage out of that 'angels boogying on a pinhead' thing .
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Post by clusium on Apr 18, 2024 12:03:30 GMT
..... Almost all Gods require their belief in them. Many of them demand sacrifice to them. Those that don't aren't gods. ..... A God cannot survive as a memory. They need love, admiration, worship, as humans need food. If, for example, all Jehovah's Witnesses were to suddenly drop dead, then Jehovah, himself, would cease to exist. Think of it: Zeus, Thor, Poseidon, are no longer alive. They have been relegated to the history books. No, God Would Continue to Exist, because God Is. BTW, modern day pagans, such as Wiccans, Asatruers, etc., worship the afore-mentioned deities that you just listed.
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The Lost One
Junior Member
@lostkiera
Posts: 2,672
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Post by The Lost One on Apr 18, 2024 14:05:34 GMT
A God cannot survive as a memory. They need love, admiration, worship, as humans need food. If, for example, all Jehovah's Witnesses were to suddenly drop dead, then Jehovah, himself, would cease to exist. Think of it: Zeus, Thor, Poseidon, are no longer alive. They have been relegated to the history books. You ever read Small Gods by Terry Pratchett? It has a lot of fun with this concept.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 18, 2024 17:00:17 GMT
In the video below, look at 4:58 to the end. He says it’s okay to kill the people who pray to another god. Now, what is the ground on the record for this ? The often angry and jealous God of the OT has a record of ordering, or instigating the killing, rape and disfigurement of those He disapproves. But this fact and of the related concept of Command Theory (the idea that things are justified and moral no matter what, if God wants it) have been done to death here of late.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 18, 2024 17:15:39 GMT
A God cannot survive as a memory. They need love, admiration, worship, as humans need food. If, for example, all Jehovah's Witnesses were to suddenly drop dead, then Jehovah, himself, would cease to exist. Think of it: Zeus, Thor, Poseidon, are no longer alive. They have been relegated to the history books. No, God Would Continue to possibly Exist, because God Is unproven There, I have corrected it for you.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 18, 2024 18:15:30 GMT
Let's say he exists and all the theists in the world stopped believing. What happens then? One thing is that He would be even more angry than He has been in the past. No one would be singing His praises and showing the expected appreciation. And we all know how vain the supposed Almighty is. www.youtube.com/watch?v=fINh4SsOyBw
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Post by Admin on Apr 18, 2024 19:41:39 GMT
Let's say he exists and all the theists in the world stopped believing. What happens then? One thing is that He would be even more angry than He has been in the past. No one would be singing His praises and showing the expected appreciation. And we all know how vain the supposed Almighty is. www.youtube.com/watch?v=fINh4SsOyBw So you're saying he would continue to exist. Looks like we agree again. How unfortunate.
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Post by FilmFlaneur on Apr 18, 2024 21:05:19 GMT
One thing is that He would be even more angry than He has been in the past. No one would be singing His praises and showing the expected appreciation. And we all know how vain the supposed Almighty is. www.youtube.com/watch?v=fINh4SsOyBw So you're saying he would continue to exist. Looks like we agree again. How unfortunate. Well you did ask. To use your favourite tautological form of argument, if we say that God exists then He exists if we say so and thus it must be correct. Thank you for the sarcasm btw.
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