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Post by DSDSquared on Jun 28, 2017 12:21:37 GMT
In the finale of Season 5, she kills Stannis and tells him she is avenging the rightful king of Westeros, Renley. This has always seemed dumb to me. She can like Renley all she wants, but what makes him a rightful king? He had no claim at all to the throne. Sure, I am all for the right of conquest and all of that. If his army ended up winning and he took the throne, I would have had no qualms. However, he did not. He was Stannis' younger brother. If they really believed Joffrey was a bastard, then Renley has no claim at all and Brienne knows this. I know it is petty, but it has always annoyed me.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jun 28, 2017 12:44:37 GMT
It is annoying. It is, actually, an obvious stain on Brienne's character and I will even call it a stain on another one, which was to enact revenge on Stannis. I wonder if calling Renly "the rightful King" is the lie she tells herself to justify the stain below, the stain of personally motivated vengeance.
Stannis felt guilty for killing Renly. He felt guilty for the choice he made between family and law. He had made the opposite choice when Robert rebelled. He had followed his brother against his king. He could not claim consistency as a justification for killing his other brother. He was not the one who decided on that conflict, though. He had offered Renly a place in his council and even the status of heir apparent. The rest was war. Renly could have died in battle. Brienne's only real accusation was of treacherous murder instead of killing in battle. It was rather weak. It was the accusation of someone who is not willing to take responsibility for their own decisions.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 28, 2017 15:52:02 GMT
In the finale of Season 5, she kills Stannis and tells him she is avenging the rightful king of Westeros, Renley. This has always seemed dumb to me. She can like Renley all she wants, but what makes him a rightful king? He had no claim at all to the throne. Sure, I am all for the right of conquest and all of that. If his army ended up winning and he took the throne, I would have had no qualms. However, he did not. He was Stannis' younger brother. If they really believed Joffrey was a bastard, then Renley has no claim at all and Brienne knows this. I know it is petty, but it has always annoyed me. 1. She was in love with Renley.
2. Renley had the popular vote. Stannis was like Prince Charles who would simply inherit the throne his brother before him usurped.
3. Stannis murdered him
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Post by Nightman on Jun 28, 2017 19:27:12 GMT
In the finale of Season 5, she kills Stannis and tells him she is avenging the rightful king of Westeros, Renley. This has always seemed dumb to me. She can like Renley all she wants, but what makes him a rightful king? He had no claim at all to the throne. Sure, I am all for the right of conquest and all of that. If his army ended up winning and he took the throne, I would have had no qualms. However, he did not. He was Stannis' younger brother. If they really believed Joffrey was a bastard, then Renley has no claim at all and Brienne knows this. I know it is petty, but it has always annoyed me. 1. She was in love with Renley.
2. Renley had the popular vote. Stannis was like Prince Charles who would simply inherit the throne his brother before him usurped.
3. Stannis murdered him
1. Doesn't matter. 2. Ask Hillary what the popular vote is worth. 3. Good for Stannis.
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Post by Aj_June on Jun 28, 2017 20:15:39 GMT
Brienne lost her objectivity in this case. That Lord Renly was kind to her doesn't mean he was a rightful king. He was a pathetic man who didn't deserve to be king either by rights or because of the fact that Tyrells and others supported him.
Brienne is a nice person overall but she erred in this matter.
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Post by Marv on Jun 29, 2017 10:04:41 GMT
Brienne is chock full of flaws and failures. I think it's to show that the path down knighthood isn't as glorious as it's cracked up to be. That your failures will often outweigh your victories.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 29, 2017 11:21:52 GMT
1. She was in love with Renley.
2. Renley had the popular vote. Stannis was like Prince Charles who would simply inherit the throne his brother before him usurped.
3. Stannis murdered him
1. Doesn't matter. 2. Ask Hillary what the popular vote is worth. 3. Good for Stannis. 1. It matters to understand Brienne. If you don't really care about understanding Brienne then continue to stew over Stannis and stop trying to figure her out. Otherwise, you're right to be bothered & that doesn't matter either as she killed Stannis regardless of your being bothered by it. 2. Doesn't matter in relation to what bugs you about Brienne 3. Yep, and that's why he's dead now (He'll die in the book too. He just doesn't have what it takes...)
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Post by DSDSquared on Jun 29, 2017 11:23:29 GMT
O another note, show Stannis became a shell of his former self by the end and had to go. I remember being upset at the time, but his story was over (on the show). His family was gone, his army was gone, and he really did not deserve redemption any more. He seemed to be a slave to the red woman and made a ton of terrible decisions. I loved Stannis because of the books and Delane's job acting as him. However, if I really look at it objectively, he was a borderline villain on the show.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 29, 2017 11:23:34 GMT
Brienne is chock full of flaws and failures. I think it's to show that the path down knighthood isn't as glorious as it's cracked up to be. That your failures will often outweigh your victories. That can explain Stannis too. The dude was horrible so it's odd he has so many defenders.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jun 29, 2017 11:46:40 GMT
Brienne is chock full of flaws and failures. I think it's to show that the path down knighthood isn't as glorious as it's cracked up to be. That your failures will often outweigh your victories. That can explain Stannis too. The dude was horrible so it's odd he has so many defenders. Daenerys is worse. It is not odd. People are horrible.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jun 29, 2017 11:55:25 GMT
Brienne is chock full of flaws and failures. I think it's to show that the path down knighthood isn't as glorious as it's cracked up to be. That your failures will often outweigh your victories. I wonder what these so numerous flaws are.
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Post by Nightman on Jun 29, 2017 13:14:54 GMT
Brienne is chock full of flaws and failures. I think it's to show that the path down knighthood isn't as glorious as it's cracked up to be. That your failures will often outweigh your victories. That can explain Stannis too. The dude was horrible so it's odd he has so many defenders. He's a well-written character, of course he has fans. But on the interwebz, even the dullest characters have people defending them.
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Post by DSDSquared on Jun 29, 2017 13:54:21 GMT
Stannis is much different in the books and a much more likable character. I think that is why he has so many fans. Also, the actor playing him is excellent and he can be funny, in a dry sort of way. I like him, honestly, but he is a borderline bad guy by the end.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 29, 2017 23:52:07 GMT
That can explain Stannis too. The dude was horrible so it's odd he has so many defenders. Daenerys is worse. It is not odd. People are horrible. Daenerys has clear enemies though amongst viewers. Not a lot but they are quite vocal. Stannis gets a pass at suckng the worst. The dude was a total loser.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 29, 2017 23:57:01 GMT
That can explain Stannis too. The dude was horrible so it's odd he has so many defenders. He's a well-written character, of course he has fans. But on the interwebz, even the dullest characters have people defending them. He's had some great speeches for sure, but as a character he is predictable...Boring even. He's even worse in the book since he's not a POV character - a sure sign that he's doomed imo although he may have a chapter in the new books The thing about his writing that is most irritating is the fact that the whole time we were watching him bond with his daughter, it was only designed to get us to be shocked by the sudden murder of his kid and a justification to see him killed off without much sympathy going his way.
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Post by Nightman on Jun 29, 2017 23:58:33 GMT
Daenerys is worse. It is not odd. People are horrible. Daenerys has clear enemies though amongst viewers. Not a lot but they are quite vocal. Stannis gets a pass at suckng the worst. The dude was a total loser. The Mannis doesn't need approval from those with poor taste. He's still the best character in the series.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 30, 2017 0:07:33 GMT
Daenerys has clear enemies though amongst viewers. Not a lot but they are quite vocal. Stannis gets a pass at suckng the worst. The dude was a total loser. The Mannis doesn't need approval from those with poor taste. He's still the best character in the series. He's the best dead character...No wait that would be Ned...or the horse that The Mountain beheaded...Or any number of dead stuff.
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Post by Nightman on Jun 30, 2017 0:09:57 GMT
The Mannis doesn't need approval from those with poor taste. He's still the best character in the series. He's the best dead character...No wait that would be Ned...or the horse that The Mountain beheaded...Or any number of dead stuff. Ned isn't even the best beheaded Stark.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jun 30, 2017 4:35:29 GMT
The Mannis doesn't need approval from those with poor taste. He's still the best character in the series. He's the best dead character...No wait that would be Ned...or the horse that The Mountain beheaded...Or any number of dead stuff. I had more sympathy for that horse than for Ned Stark
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jun 30, 2017 5:15:38 GMT
The thing about his writing that is most irritating is the fact that the whole time we were watching him bond with his daughter, it was only designed to get us to be shocked by the sudden murder of his kid and a justification to see him killed off without much sympathy going his way. That was just one scene set as a trap for the emofools who hadn't been listening when Melisandre announced that "the Lord" would need her. They got what they deserved.
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