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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 30, 2017 13:51:42 GMT
Brienne lost her objectivity in this case. That Lord Renly was kind to her doesn't mean he was a rightful king. He was a pathetic man who didn't deserve to be king either by rights or because of the fact that Tyrells and others supported him. Brienne is a nice person overall but she erred in this matter. Game of Thrones is very much about karma in my opinion...Even over the most minor of slights, people pay for it.
It doesn't matter if Brienne killed Stannis or not.
What matters is that Stannis, like most people on the show, deserved to die because he has always been sucky.
He had no more right to be king than his brother before him and he did far suckier things.
Renley could have been the better king and it didn't matter if he usurped the throne or not.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jun 30, 2017 13:53:19 GMT
He's the best dead character...No wait that would be Ned...or the horse that The Mountain beheaded...Or any number of dead stuff. Ned isn't even the best beheaded Stark. That would still make him better than dead Stannis.
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Post by Marv on Jul 1, 2017 15:45:42 GMT
Brienne lost her objectivity in this case. That Lord Renly was kind to her doesn't mean he was a rightful king. He was a pathetic man who didn't deserve to be king either by rights or because of the fact that Tyrells and others supported him. Brienne is a nice person overall but she erred in this matter. Game of Thrones is very much about karma in my opinion...Even over the most minor of slights, people pay for it.
It doesn't matter if Brienne killed Stannis or not.
What matters is that Stannis, like most people on the show, deserved to die because he has always been sucky.
He had no more right to be king than his brother before him and he did far suckier things.
Renley could have been the better king and it didn't matter if he usurped the throne or not.
I agree that the whole 'right to the throne' doesn't really exist. Robert took the throne by force because he could and was tired of living under the Mad Kings maniacal rule. So he stepped up and gathered houses and took it. Just like Aegon the Conqueror did generations before...and like Daenarys plans to do next season. Whomever takes the throne is worth the throne. But re Stannis. He is introduced to us as a leader who burns people at the stake as a sacrifice to his God. This is not the mark of a good man or a good King. Stannis had many good qualities for a King but I could never really stand behind him for his acts in the name of Rhlor.
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Post by poelzig on Jul 2, 2017 4:07:04 GMT
That can explain Stannis too. The dude was horrible so it's odd he has so many defenders. Daenerys is worse. It is not odd. People are horrible. Cersei is the most loathsome creature on the show yet you seem to adore the evil witch. People are indeed horrible.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 2, 2017 11:54:58 GMT
Daenerys is worse. It is not odd. People are horrible. Cersei is the most loathsome creature on the show yet you seem to adore the evil witch. People are indeed horrible. Cersei is neither evil not a witch but so many people are simply stupid.
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Post by poelzig on Jul 3, 2017 0:01:56 GMT
Cersei is the most loathsome creature on the show yet you seem to adore the evil witch. People are indeed horrible. Cersei is neither evil not a witch but so many people are simply stupid. I get it. You like to fantasize that you're a Lannister and fap to thoughts of having sex with your sister. Cersei can do no wrong in your eyes because your lust for incestuous sex has damaged your brain. If you don't think someone who torments children, had an innocent pet killed and commands that innocent people be tortured and killed is evil then you are as moronic as your silly avatar and blind cersei worshiping makes you seem. Perhaps you're just a silly troll that's really dedicated to his silly troll persona or maybe you're so obsessed with a fictional character you've lost all perspective on what constitutes evil. Which is it then?
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 3, 2017 0:49:57 GMT
Cersei is neither evil not a witch but so many people are simply stupid. I get it. You like to fantasize that you're a Lannister and fap to thoughts of having sex with your sister. Cersei can do no wrong in your eyes because your lust for incestuous sex has damaged your brain. If you don't think someone who torments children, had an innocent pet killed and commands that innocent people be tortured and killed is evil then you are as moronic as your silly avatar and blind cersei worshiping makes you seem. Perhaps you're just a silly troll that's really dedicated to his silly troll persona or maybe you're so obsessed with a fictional character you've lost all perspective on what constitutes evil. Which is it then? And you're one of those terminal idiots who don't see the show is different from the books. Go hide somewhere, Poelzig, you're a disgrace.
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Post by poelzig on Jul 3, 2017 1:54:58 GMT
I get it. You like to fantasize that you're a Lannister and fap to thoughts of having sex with your sister. Cersei can do no wrong in your eyes because your lust for incestuous sex has damaged your brain. If you don't think someone who torments children, had an innocent pet killed and commands that innocent people be tortured and killed is evil then you are as moronic as your silly avatar and blind cersei worshiping makes you seem. Perhaps you're just a silly troll that's really dedicated to his silly troll persona or maybe you're so obsessed with a fictional character you've lost all perspective on what constitutes evil. Which is it then? And you're one of those terminal idiots who don't see the show is different from the books. Go hide somewhere, Poelzig, you're a disgrace. Cersei did all those malicious things on the show. She is an evil wretched person. The fact you're into incest fantasy can't change the truth.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 3, 2017 5:24:38 GMT
And you're one of those terminal idiots who don't see the show is different from the books. Go hide somewhere, Poelzig, you're a disgrace. Cersei did all those malicious things on the show. She is an evil wretched person. The fact you're into incest fantasy can't change the truth. No children were tormented, no innocents were tortured on the show. Innocents were killed in self-defense, for which those who cornered her into it are to blame. I see a mob of idiots blaming a character for things they think they see her do. I see masses jumping to conclusions and displaying their stupidity as truth. It's nothing new, the world's history is full of them.
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Post by poelzig on Jul 3, 2017 7:03:11 GMT
Cersei did all those malicious things on the show. She is an evil wretched person. The fact you're into incest fantasy can't change the truth. No children were tormented, no innocents were tortured on the show. Innocents were killed in self-defense, for which those who cornered her into it are to blame. I see a mob of idiots blaming a character for things they think they see her do. I see masses jumping to conclusions and displaying their stupidity as truth. It's nothing new, the world's history is full of them. She pinched baby Tyrions cock so hard that she would have torn it off if Jamie hadn't stopped her. She did that on numerous occasions She demanded a direwolf pet be butchered even though it wasn't even the one that had scared her little bitch son. She goaded Jamie into pushing Bran out the window when it seemed Jamie was more inclined into letting Bran go and just deny it. She has all the food from the wedding feast fed to dogs instead of starving people just to spite Margary She killed an entire room of people with wildfire many of whom had done nothing to her other than hate her because she is an evil duplicitous bitch or been brainwashed by the cult she gave power to in the first place. Even the ones who had plotted against her had every reason to do so. She tortured countless people (everyone but her inbred brood?) mentally making them live in constant fear for their lives. She took particular delight in tormenting Sansa and Tyrion proving she delighted in tormenting those weaker than herself. She left a nun to be raped repeatedly by a zombie that she had created She was set to have Sansa murdered if Stannis had breached the city successfully She allowed and even encouraged Joffrey to become a vicious psycopath. She never tried to curb his evil and wouldn't allow anyone else to either. Her incestuous relationship may have been the reason Joffrey was insane in the first place. All of this is GOT Cersei. I don't give a shit if you worship her. Hell you can admit you want to drink her piss for all I care. However, it's ridiculous to pretend the wicked cunt is just some misunderstood loving parent that's just trying to protect her family.
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Post by DSDSquared on Jul 3, 2017 12:11:15 GMT
No children were tormented, no innocents were tortured on the show. Innocents were killed in self-defense, for which those who cornered her into it are to blame. I see a mob of idiots blaming a character for things they think they see her do. I see masses jumping to conclusions and displaying their stupidity as truth. It's nothing new, the world's history is full of them. She pinched baby Tyrions cock so hard that she would have torn it off if Jamie hadn't stopped her. She did that on numerous occasions She demanded a direwolf pet be butchered even though it wasn't even the one that had scared her little bitch son. She goaded Jamie into pushing Bran out the window when it seemed Jamie was more inclined into letting Bran go and just deny it. She has all the food from the wedding feast fed to dogs instead of starving people just to spite Margary She killed an entire room of people with wildfire many of whom had done nothing to her other than hate her because she is an evil duplicitous bitch or been brainwashed by the cult she gave power to in the first place. Even the ones who had plotted against her had every reason to do so. She tortured countless people (everyone but her inbred brood?) mentally making them live in constant fear for their lives. She took particular delight in tormenting Sansa and Tyrion proving she delighted in tormenting those weaker than herself. She left a nun to be raped repeatedly by a zombie that she had created She was set to have Sansa murdered if Stannis had breached the city successfully She allowed and even encouraged Joffrey to become a vicious psycopath. She never tried to curb his evil and wouldn't allow anyone else to either. Her incestuous relationship may have been the reason Joffrey was insane in the first place. All of this is GOT Cersei. I don't give a shit if you worship her. Hell you can admit you want to drink her piss for all I care. However, it's ridiculous to pretend the wicked *** is just some misunderstood loving parent that's just trying to protect her family. Yes, but she is still an awesome character and that is all that matters. Despite how horrible it was, blowing up the sept and killing all of those people actually solved all of her problems. Her family was in turmoil and was on the brink of extinction due to the Sparrows, which, granted, were her doing. She killed all of her enemies and became Queen of Westeros in one foul swoop.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 3, 2017 13:19:04 GMT
No children were tormented, no innocents were tortured on the show. Innocents were killed in self-defense, for which those who cornered her into it are to blame. I see a mob of idiots blaming a character for things they think they see her do. I see masses jumping to conclusions and displaying their stupidity as truth. It's nothing new, the world's history is full of them. She pinched baby Tyrions cock so hard that she would have torn it off if Jamie hadn't stopped her. She did that on numerous occasions She demanded a direwolf pet be butchered even though it wasn't even the one that had scared her little bitch son. She goaded Jamie into pushing Bran out the window when it seemed Jamie was more inclined into letting Bran go and just deny it. She has all the food from the wedding feast fed to dogs instead of starving people just to spite Margary She killed an entire room of people with wildfire many of whom had done nothing to her other than hate her because she is an evil duplicitous bitch or been brainwashed by the cult she gave power to in the first place. Even the ones who had plotted against her had every reason to do so. She tortured countless people (everyone but her inbred brood?) mentally making them live in constant fear for their lives. She took particular delight in tormenting Sansa and Tyrion proving she delighted in tormenting those weaker than herself. She left a nun to be raped repeatedly by a zombie that she had created She was set to have Sansa murdered if Stannis had breached the city successfully She allowed and even encouraged Joffrey to become a vicious psycopath. She never tried to curb his evil and wouldn't allow anyone else to either. Her incestuous relationship may have been the reason Joffrey was insane in the first place. All of this is GOT Cersei. I don't give a shit if you worship her. Hell you can admit you want to drink her piss for all I care. However, it's ridiculous to pretend the wicked *** is just some misunderstood loving parent that's just trying to protect her family. You're inventing most of this. She asked a direwolf, a dangerous beast, be killed and her husband the king ordered it done. She decided to feed her dogs instead of making a populist display of false charity. She wanted someone executed for a crime she believed the person was guilty of. All the rest is hearsay from earlier times or your pitiful "understanding" jumping to false conclusions. You're a bad joke.
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Post by poelzig on Jul 3, 2017 19:33:42 GMT
She pinched baby Tyrions cock so hard that she would have torn it off if Jamie hadn't stopped her. She did that on numerous occasions She demanded a direwolf pet be butchered even though it wasn't even the one that had scared her little bitch son. She goaded Jamie into pushing Bran out the window when it seemed Jamie was more inclined into letting Bran go and just deny it. She has all the food from the wedding feast fed to dogs instead of starving people just to spite Margary She killed an entire room of people with wildfire many of whom had done nothing to her other than hate her because she is an evil duplicitous bitch or been brainwashed by the cult she gave power to in the first place. Even the ones who had plotted against her had every reason to do so. She tortured countless people (everyone but her inbred brood?) mentally making them live in constant fear for their lives. She took particular delight in tormenting Sansa and Tyrion proving she delighted in tormenting those weaker than herself. She left a nun to be raped repeatedly by a zombie that she had created She was set to have Sansa murdered if Stannis had breached the city successfully She allowed and even encouraged Joffrey to become a vicious psycopath. She never tried to curb his evil and wouldn't allow anyone else to either. Her incestuous relationship may have been the reason Joffrey was insane in the first place. All of this is GOT Cersei. I don't give a shit if you worship her. Hell you can admit you want to drink her piss for all I care. However, it's ridiculous to pretend the wicked *** is just some misunderstood loving parent that's just trying to protect her family. Yes, but she is still an awesome character and that is all that matters. Despite how horrible it was, blowing up the sept and killing all of those people actually solved all of her problems. Her family was in turmoil and was on the brink of extinction due to the Sparrows, which, granted, were her doing. She killed all of her enemies and became Queen of Westeros in one foul swoop. See I have no problem with your viewpoint because you're being honest. You know she has done evil stuff but you like her character so you're fine with her bad deeds. You admire her ability to satisfy her bloodthirsty quest for power. The ends justify the means. A sentiment I can agree with myself when a character I like does bad things.
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Post by poelzig on Jul 3, 2017 19:43:28 GMT
She pinched baby Tyrions cock so hard that she would have torn it off if Jamie hadn't stopped her. She did that on numerous occasions She demanded a direwolf pet be butchered even though it wasn't even the one that had scared her little bitch son. She goaded Jamie into pushing Bran out the window when it seemed Jamie was more inclined into letting Bran go and just deny it. She has all the food from the wedding feast fed to dogs instead of starving people just to spite Margary She killed an entire room of people with wildfire many of whom had done nothing to her other than hate her because she is an evil duplicitous bitch or been brainwashed by the cult she gave power to in the first place. Even the ones who had plotted against her had every reason to do so. She tortured countless people (everyone but her inbred brood?) mentally making them live in constant fear for their lives. She took particular delight in tormenting Sansa and Tyrion proving she delighted in tormenting those weaker than herself. She left a nun to be raped repeatedly by a zombie that she had created She was set to have Sansa murdered if Stannis had breached the city successfully She allowed and even encouraged Joffrey to become a vicious psycopath. She never tried to curb his evil and wouldn't allow anyone else to either. Her incestuous relationship may have been the reason Joffrey was insane in the first place. All of this is GOT Cersei. I don't give a shit if you worship her. Hell you can admit you want to drink her piss for all I care. However, it's ridiculous to pretend the wicked *** is just some misunderstood loving parent that's just trying to protect her family. You're inventing most of this. She asked a direwolf, a dangerous beast, be killed and her husband the king ordered it done. She decided to feed her dogs instead of making a populist display of false charity. She wanted someone executed for a crime she believed the person was guilty of. All the rest is hearsay from earlier times or your pitiful "understanding" jumping to false conclusions. You're a bad joke. You're an idiot in a constant state of denial. I didn't even mention numerous evil deeds she did for example having countless innocents butchered literally simply because they were dwarfs. We see their heads dumped out of a bag in front of Cersei and she not only has no guilt over causing their deaths she insists the slaughter continue. Just like every other of her evil acts I listed this happened on GOT not just the books. I'm sure you will remove your head from your ass and jam it into the sand about the attempted Dwarf genocide just like you do with all the other evil acts. You really should try and expand your act a little bit. It was always lame but now it's painfully boring as well.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 4, 2017 4:05:08 GMT
You're inventing most of this. She asked a direwolf, a dangerous beast, be killed and her husband the king ordered it done. She decided to feed her dogs instead of making a populist display of false charity. She wanted someone executed for a crime she believed the person was guilty of. All the rest is hearsay from earlier times or your pitiful "understanding" jumping to false conclusions. You're a bad joke. You're an idiot in a constant state of denial. I didn't even mention numerous evil deeds she did for example having countless innocents butchered literally simply because they were dwarfs. We see their heads dumped out of a bag in front of Cersei and she not only has no guilt over causing their deaths she insists the slaughter continue. Just like every other of her evil acts I listed this happened on GOT not just the books. I'm sure you will remove your head from your ass and jam it into the sand about the attempted Dwarf genocide just like you do with all the other evil acts. You really should try and expand your act a little bit. It was always lame but now it's painfully boring as well. A price was set on the head of a convicted murderer. This is only a genocide attempt in your disgusting little mind. You're a witch hunter, Poelzig, someone who condemns people for "not caring enough", someone who makes them responsible of the acts of others because you dislike them. You're a stinking piece of shit, Poelzig and I'm not about to stop telling you.
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Post by hi224 on Jul 4, 2017 4:30:04 GMT
In the finale of Season 5, she kills Stannis and tells him she is avenging the rightful king of Westeros, Renley. This has always seemed dumb to me. She can like Renley all she wants, but what makes him a rightful king? He had no claim at all to the throne. Sure, I am all for the right of conquest and all of that. If his army ended up winning and he took the throne, I would have had no qualms. However, he did not. He was Stannis' younger brother. If they really believed Joffrey was a bastard, then Renley has no claim at all and Brienne knows this. I know it is petty, but it has always annoyed me. its called character flaws which make the character more dynamic, but yeah very annoying.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 4, 2017 5:11:55 GMT
In the finale of Season 5, she kills Stannis and tells him she is avenging the rightful king of Westeros, Renley. This has always seemed dumb to me. She can like Renley all she wants, but what makes him a rightful king? He had no claim at all to the throne. Sure, I am all for the right of conquest and all of that. If his army ended up winning and he took the throne, I would have had no qualms. However, he did not. He was Stannis' younger brother. If they really believed Joffrey was a bastard, then Renley has no claim at all and Brienne knows this. I know it is petty, but it has always annoyed me. its called character flaws which make the character more dynamic, but yeah very annoying. The thing I can find annoying here, and maybe it is what the OP means without making it explicit, is that this flaw is not an apparent one. It is not one which the show presents us with and we are not sure if we are the clever guy who saw the hidden flaw or simply witnessing a contradiction the writers failed to spot themselves. When Ned Stark made mistakes, they were in plain sight: "I did warn you not to trust me" said Littlefinger. The character's flaw was presented next to his alleged virtues for us to balance and regret. We were watching a teacher giving a lesson, a philosopher making a point. When Renly rebelled against Joffrey, however, he was presented as a good guy. He was the kind, lovable king who was going to make an alliance with Robb and end the bloody mess for the better. Wasn't he? No, actually, he and Robb were those who started the bloody mess (Ned's blood before the Sept of Baelor was cleaned up diligently, let's not waste time over small details). They were those who called armies and marched them to war. They were the bad guys but the writers were leading you to believe otherwise. Surely they could do no wrong or was there already a hint to the contrary in Robb's speech after he sacrificed 2000 men? Yes, it was there, also in plain sight. Viewers could decide to ignore it but they weren't spared that scene: Worse than that, Renly was the man who decided to take the throne by force without a legal basis. He started a war because he could, because someone loved him enough to give him the means to it. Renly was far worse than Joffrey, not defending what he was born and raised to consider his but destroying others to take what he wanted. The show wasn't putting this in plain sight anymore, you had to realise it for yourself. At the Blackwater battle, viewers were shown two sympathy generating scenes: first between Davos and his son then between Tyrion and Shae. You were made to silently wish the battle wouldn't happen after all. You were shown the cost of war. Brienne, like Renly, was brought into the story as a nearly flawless protagonist, besides the obvious physical ones which make viewers feel sympathy for her. When she "executes" Stannis in the name of "the rightful king", it looks like the writers support her position since she's been the ultimate "good guy" all along but why should they? Is it an "annoying" position they take, annoying because we have good arguments against it, or it is just Brienne's flawed position they put on screen, for us to see if we choose to? I like to think it is the latter.
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Post by poelzig on Jul 4, 2017 5:16:59 GMT
You're an idiot in a constant state of denial. I didn't even mention numerous evil deeds she did for example having countless innocents butchered literally simply because they were dwarfs. We see their heads dumped out of a bag in front of Cersei and she not only has no guilt over causing their deaths she insists the slaughter continue. Just like every other of her evil acts I listed this happened on GOT not just the books. I'm sure you will remove your head from your ass and jam it into the sand about the attempted Dwarf genocide just like you do with all the other evil acts. You really should try and expand your act a little bit. It was always lame but now it's painfully boring as well. A price was set on the head of a convicted murderer. This is only a genocide attempt in your disgusting little mind. You're a witch hunter, Poelzig, someone who condemns people for "not caring enough", someone who makes them responsible of the acts of others because you dislike them. You're a stinking piece of shit, Poelzig and I'm not about to stop telling you. Like I said your act is really stale and but if you insist I play along. Using your "logic" then if a price was set on the head of a convicted pedophile that was only described as a fat ugly loser with bad skin and bad hygiene and someone decapitated you because you match that description perfectly you would die happily? Also the people living anywhere near the area Cersei was to be tried were also innocent and she killed them as well. People just walking around were also horriblr murdered solely because of Cersei. Many of them were children and women and old people. She's actually responsible for the deaths of more innocent people than all the other characters combined. Pointing out how wrong you are has made me realize Cersei is much more evil than I already thought.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 4, 2017 11:46:50 GMT
In the finale of Season 5, she kills Stannis and tells him she is avenging the rightful king of Westeros, Renley. This has always seemed dumb to me. She can like Renley all she wants, but what makes him a rightful king? He had no claim at all to the throne. Sure, I am all for the right of conquest and all of that. If his army ended up winning and he took the throne, I would have had no qualms. However, he did not. He was Stannis' younger brother. If they really believed Joffrey was a bastard, then Renley has no claim at all and Brienne knows this. I know it is petty, but it has always annoyed me. its called character flaws which make the character more dynamic, but yeah very annoying. It's not a character flaw to remain loyal to someone enough to avenge them. At its most basic, she and her House had an alliance with Renley and never one with Stannis. There was never going to be a time she was going to align with Stannis and there was never a time Stannis would have stopped being an enemy...Who let's never forget was a sleazebag of epic proportions. On top of that, she was accused of killing the one she swore allegiance to and one of the only ones who knew that Stannis defeated his brother by cheating (Stannis was never able to be in the battle fair and square since that's how inconsequential he was). We know that Brienne is not one to forsake an oath easily, so it made sense that she would be the one to kill Stannis if given the opportunity.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 4, 2017 11:49:09 GMT
Of course, Stannis was going to die anyway so not sure what difference it makes if she kills him or he dies from his wounds or is killed by Boltons.
In any event, Stannis' defeat was some amazing storytelling even if Stannis wasn't amazing himself. One of the more tragic and pathetic characters on TV.
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