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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 4, 2017 12:36:47 GMT
its called character flaws which make the character more dynamic, but yeah very annoying. It's not a character flaw to remain loyal to someone enough to avenge them. The flaw I see, and it does annoy me when I think back on it, is Brienne believing Renly was the rightful king. I have no trouble accepting that Brienne would remain loyal to her liege lord, to the man she swore fealty and service, no matter what he did, even if it was illegal. I fully see her serving what she believes to be a good cause and doing it against the law or against what most think is right. This is already what she does by behaving as a knight in a woman's body, this is what she did when she accepted Jaime after he told her why he killed the Mad King. Brienne taking revenge on Stannis for killing the man she served is no justice. It is vengeance and she knows it, she made that clear in her conversation with Pod. Her calling it justice is misled. Stannis stopped the man who meant to make war on him after he offered him a place in his council and made him his heir. Then of course, Renly had no right to the throne. It makes Brienne deluded or ignorant and this doesn't fit with the rest of the character. It that respect, it can be considered a flaw in the writing.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 4, 2017 13:06:47 GMT
It's not a character flaw to remain loyal to someone enough to avenge them. The flaw I see, and it does annoy me when I think back on it, is Brienne believing Renly was the rightful king. I have no trouble accepting that Brienne would remain loyal to her liege lord, to the man she swore fealty and service, no matter what he did, even if it was illegal. I fully see her serving what she believes to be a good cause and doing it against the law or against what most think is right. This is already what she does by behaving as a knight in a woman's body, this is what she did when she accepted Jaime after he told her why he killed the Mad King. Brienne taking revenge on Stannis for killing the man she served is no justice. It is vengeance and she knows it, she made that clear in her conversation with Pod. Her calling it justice is misled. Stannis stopped the man who meant to make war on him after he offered him a place in his council and made him his heir. Then of course, Renly had no right to the throne. It makes Brienne deluded or ignorant and this doesn't fit with the rest of the character. It that respect, it can be considered a flaw in the writing. It doesn't matter if it's justice. Vengeance and justice have little to do with each other. She had no reason to pledge allegiance to the winner. Her principles were higher than that. Anyone who can take the throne has the right to the throne.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 4, 2017 14:16:39 GMT
The flaw I see, and it does annoy me when I think back on it, is Brienne believing Renly was the rightful king. I have no trouble accepting that Brienne would remain loyal to her liege lord, to the man she swore fealty and service, no matter what he did, even if it was illegal. I fully see her serving what she believes to be a good cause and doing it against the law or against what most think is right. This is already what she does by behaving as a knight in a woman's body, this is what she did when she accepted Jaime after he told her why he killed the Mad King. Brienne taking revenge on Stannis for killing the man she served is no justice. It is vengeance and she knows it, she made that clear in her conversation with Pod. Her calling it justice is misled. Stannis stopped the man who meant to make war on him after he offered him a place in his council and made him his heir. Then of course, Renly had no right to the throne. It makes Brienne deluded or ignorant and this doesn't fit with the rest of the character. It that respect, it can be considered a flaw in the writing. It doesn't matter if it's justice. Vengeance and justice have little to do with each other. She had no reason to pledge allegiance to the winner. Her principles were higher than that. Anyone who can take the throne has the right to the throne. I'm not sure why you are speaking of "pledging allegiance to the winner". I have the feeling you didn't understand what I was saying. Brienne spoke of taking vengeance on Stannis and presented this to him as justice. There was hypocrisy in that and I do not know if it is a character flaw or a flaw in the character. Are you following me? (I do not know if this is a flaw in Brienne's personality, because all characters have their shades of grey we are meant to see and find interesting or if it is a flaw in the writing as D&D failed to realise they were making a hypocrite of her). Regarding allegiance, Brienne was sworn to her liege lord, Renly, and it wasn't even a choice, it was actually expected of her since Tarth is part of the Stormlands, of which he was the lord. Her principles were clearly stated: she respects her oaths, even beyond the passing of those she swore them to. Revenge, however, is not part of the oath of fealty. She didn't have to avenge Renly. As to rights and taking things, this is in clear contradiction. There is no right to take things by force through unilateral volition. The very principle of a right is against this. He who takes the throne could be granted the right to keep it after he's won when the existing powers surrounding him see it in whatever interest they serve. This is what happened with Robert but it is not a certainty and many have taken a throne to be thrown down from it later (Edward IV was a blinking king, Richard III was unhorsed… After the Civil War had flopped, the king killers were trialled and condemned, Cromwell's body was even exhumed to be called names or something).
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Post by hi224 on Jul 4, 2017 16:13:04 GMT
its called character flaws which make the character more dynamic, but yeah very annoying. It's not a character flaw to remain loyal to someone enough to avenge them. At its most basic, she and her House had an alliance with Renley and never one with Stannis. There was never going to be a time she was going to align with Stannis and there was never a time Stannis would have stopped being an enemy...Who let's never forget was a sleazebag of epic proportions. On top of that, she was accused of killing the one she swore allegiance to and one of the only ones who knew that Stannis defeated his brother by cheating (Stannis was never able to be in the battle fair and square since that's how inconsequential he was). We know that Brienne is not one to forsake an oath easily, so it made sense that she would be the one to kill Stannis if given the opportunity. Im not saying that specifically but she tends to allow her oath to at times to override any pragmatism, ie escorting Jamie for Cat which fucked the Starks, i find it funny how her, ned and Davos are very similiar.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 4, 2017 16:19:20 GMT
Im not saying that specifically but she tends to allow her oath to at times to override any pragmatism, ie escorting Jamie for Cat which fucked the Starks, i find it funny how her, ned and Davos are very similiar. How do you come to the idea that her escorting Jaime had any impact on the Starks?
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Post by hi224 on Jul 4, 2017 16:23:37 GMT
Im not saying that specifically but she tends to allow her oath to at times to override any pragmatism, ie escorting Jamie for Cat which fucked the Starks, i find it funny how her, ned and Davos are very similiar. How do you come to the idea that her escorting Jaime had any impact on the Starks? Didnt they lose their bargining chip? At this point it was assumed aryas dead and sansas with Lannisters right?. It cost jaime a hand not to nention
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Post by hi224 on Jul 4, 2017 16:24:01 GMT
Im not saying that specifically but she tends to allow her oath to at times to override any pragmatism, ie escorting Jamie for Cat which fucked the Starks, i find it funny how her, ned and Davos are very similiar. How do you come to the idea that her escorting Jaime had any impact on the Starks? It has been awhile since i read books.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 4, 2017 16:28:57 GMT
How do you come to the idea that her escorting Jaime had any impact on the Starks? It has been awhile since i read books. It doesn't matter, we're discussing the show.
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Post by hi224 on Jul 4, 2017 16:36:44 GMT
It has been awhile since i read books. It doesn't matter, we're discussing the show. Regardless her honor can be a bit of a blindspot
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 4, 2017 19:33:55 GMT
How do you come to the idea that her escorting Jaime had any impact on the Starks? It has been awhile since i read books. The same outcome occurred. Her siding with Kat allowed the ransom demand to wither away and it also exposed a weakness Robb had for his family that others could pick up on. It was a bad move, but not one Brienne had much to do with. She did not pledge support to the Starks, only Kat and her end goal was the same - find the Stark girls
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Post by hi224 on Jul 4, 2017 19:34:53 GMT
It has been awhile since i read books. The same outcome occurred. Her siding with Kat allowed the ransom demand to wither away and it also exposed a weakness Robb had for his family that others could pick up on. It was a bad move, but not one Brienne had much to do with. She did not pledge support to the Starks, only Kat and her end goal was the same - find the Stark girls Hey so favorite character lol? Ill go jamie.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 4, 2017 19:40:36 GMT
The same outcome occurred. Her siding with Kat allowed the ransom demand to wither away and it also exposed a weakness Robb had for his family that others could pick up on. It was a bad move, but not one Brienne had much to do with. She did not pledge support to the Starks, only Kat and her end goal was the same - find the Stark girls Hey so favorite character lol? Ill go jamie. Brienne is far from my favorite character, but I just have no issues with her killing Stannis and especially on the grounds that he had the proper claim.
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Post by poelzig on Jul 4, 2017 20:00:32 GMT
I'm willing to give Brienne a pass on that. I like her character. She's actually a believable female bad ass which is all too rare. She has explained how she was trained from an early age after getting her ass kicked by boys so often her dad decided to train her properly. No Mary Sue waif beating behemoths without getting winded. Had the Hound not taken a tumble over a cliff she may have lost her life. Like all of the characters she has her flaws like being too stoic and rigid but she's one of a handful that seems to have no ulterior motives. Unless you see her devotion to Renley as an ulterior motive. She explained the reason for that even. He was kind to her when all the other boys were being cruel.
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Post by Leo of Red Keep on Jul 5, 2017 5:44:50 GMT
I'm willing to give Brienne a pass on that. I like her character. She's actually a believable female bad ass which is all too rare. She has explained how she was trained from an early age after getting her ass kicked by boys so often her dad decided to train her properly. No Mary Sue waif beating behemoths without getting winded. Had the Hound not taken a tumble over a cliff she may have lost her life. Like all of the characters she has her flaws like being too stoic and rigid but she's one of a handful that seems to have no ulterior motives. Unless you see her devotion to Renley as an ulterior motive. She explained the reason for that even. He was kind to her when all the other boys were being cruel. Brienne said she went looking for trouble with the boys (quite like Arya) and obviously lost for lack of training but wouldn't give up so her father did what he could to limit the damage. She is very much a man in a woman's body. Stronger, taller with a taste for violent resolutions rather than conciliation. She tames the violence by having it justified and limited through principles. When she told Pod she was "not his mother" it was easy to think she would never feel like anyone's mother. Brienne is not your archetypal "strong woman" out to show the world that "women can do it too", she is more the freak trapped in her condition, in search for a place in the world, asking for acceptance while also working hard for it. Her devotion for Renly comes from his acceptance of her and whatever she feels for Jaime has the same root. Both came to see and value her qualities.
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Post by DSDSquared on Jul 5, 2017 11:19:24 GMT
I like Brienne and do not blame her for killing Renley. I am always bothered by her insistence that Renley was the rightful king of Westeros when he had no claim at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 12:50:04 GMT
Because she pledged herself to Renley.
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Post by DSDSquared on Jul 12, 2017 13:32:01 GMT
Because she pledged herself to Renley. Once again I get this and that makes sense, but she also claims that he is the rightful king of Westeros when he was anything but. He seriously had ZERO claim.
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Post by CoolJGS☺ on Jul 12, 2017 13:38:02 GMT
Because she pledged herself to Renley. Once again I get this and that makes sense, but she also claims that he is the rightful king of Westeros when he was anything but. He seriously had ZERO claim. The only one with a claim to the throne is the one that can claim the throne.
That's what the show is about.
So if Renley one and he had loyal followers and had lived, then he would have deserved the throne.
Really, it doesn't make sense that people would be loyal to him if they didn't think he had a right to the throne, so they aren't supposed to hold the view he didn't have a claim. Otherwise they would be with that goober Stannis.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2017 13:43:55 GMT
Because she pledged herself to Renley. Once again I get this and that makes sense, but she also claims that he is the rightful king of Westeros when he was anything but. He seriously had ZERO claim. I guess because Renley had chosen to challenge Stannis and was likely to win a battle legitimised his claim. Stannis was only 'rightful' because Robert died, and Robert took the throne because the 'rightful' king had been murdered. Granted it's a flawed logic but she is blinded by honour.
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Post by DSDSquared on Jul 12, 2017 13:44:52 GMT
If he won the throne through conquest, like he was trying to do, then he would have been King and I would have no problem with it, but he did not. He was never king nor was he even close to being the rightful king. Stannis is the older brother and had the stronger claim easily.
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