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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2017 0:27:12 GMT
What is the origin and fate of Etta Place, aka Mrs Sundance.
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Post by hi224 on Aug 26, 2017 15:02:22 GMT
The green children story as well.
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Post by Nalkarj on Aug 29, 2017 16:20:50 GMT
Several of the best, which I naturally forgot: The Julia Wallace Case(I will note, however, that the late Jonathan Goodman's book on the subject is a rollicking good read, and Mr. Goodman may well have deduced the murderer's identity.) Günther Stoll and YOGTZE(As insoluble a mystery as any book, though the state of Mr. Stoll's mental health may point to a disappointing solution.) Louis Le Prince and his impossible disappearance from a moving train(One of the great mysteries of history, so much so that I'm surprised more books are not written on the subject. A classic "impossible crime," one to which I'd love to know an answer.) The Hinterkaifeck Murders(I see that hi224 has just started a thread on this, so I'll let him take it away, but--gruesome, terrible, and inexplicable.) Oh, and has the SS Ourang-Medan story been debunked?
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Post by Nalkarj on Aug 29, 2017 16:28:27 GMT
Let me also point out the Cam Lyman case, which is truly the stuff of fiction...
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Post by hi224 on Aug 29, 2017 16:30:04 GMT
Several of the best, which I naturally forgot: The Julia Wallace Case Günther Stoll and YOGTZE Louis Le Prince and his impossible disappearance from a moving train Oh, and has the SS Ourang-Medan story been debunked?I believe it was.
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Post by Nalkarj on Aug 29, 2017 16:36:26 GMT
Several of the best, which I naturally forgot: The Julia Wallace Case Günther Stoll and YOGTZE Louis Le Prince and his impossible disappearance from a moving train Oh, and has the SS Ourang-Medan story been debunked?I believe it was. Thought so. Far too "story-shaped," a bit like my old friend Rudolf Fentz.
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Post by hi224 on Aug 29, 2017 16:39:18 GMT
Thought so. Far too "story-shaped," a bit like my old friend Rudolf Fentz. Yeah do you feel Bathhurst was killed by French probably?.
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Post by Nalkarj on Aug 29, 2017 16:48:07 GMT
hi224Bathurst? Probably. The story has been so embellished (I first heard it like this: he walks behind the horses for a moment, and disappears! Nothing about the inn or the distance to the chaise) and is so vague, that I've never spent much time on it. I wonder if Krause could have killed him.
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Post by hi224 on Aug 29, 2017 16:49:39 GMT
hi224 Bathurst? Probably. The story has been so embellished (I first heard it like this: he walks behind the horses for a moment, and disappears! Nothing about the inn or the distance to the chaise) and is so vague, that I've never spent much time on it. I wonder if Krause could have killed him. sorry I have a weird interest in the whole disappearance.
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Post by Nalkarj on Aug 29, 2017 16:51:18 GMT
hi224No need to be sorry! I have an interest in various unsolved mysteries (as evidenced by this very thread).
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Post by hi224 on Aug 29, 2017 16:58:45 GMT
hi224 No need to be sorry! I have an interest in various unsolved mysteries (as evidenced by this very thread). curious why do you feel Krause murdered him.
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Post by Nalkarj on Aug 29, 2017 18:28:57 GMT
hi224 Nothing in particular--I don't know enough about the case to say anything substantial--just throwing the idea out there. Certainly, he is the most-likely suspect from a detective-story viewpoint: on the scene, the one who reported the disappearance, able to disguise a murder with this elaborate "disappearance" story, German in a country of (as Wikipedia describes it) "bandits, stragglers from the French army, and German revolutionaries." The idea that Krause was in fact working with Auguste Schmidt does not seem so far-fetched, at least to me. But, as I say, I'm no expert on the case, so I may be completely off. Failing my theory, though, I'm perfectly happy to go with yours--or even with a combination of the two, that Krause and Schmidt were working with the French.
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Post by Nalkarj on Aug 29, 2017 18:37:32 GMT
I have a few questions about the validity of the Émilie Sagée case: do we have any evidence for any one of the claims usually made? I see only one citation at one source, and it's double hearsay--American politician Robert Dale Owen, who first wrote the story down, has it from German aristocrat Baron von Güldenstubbe, who himself has it from his daughter Julie, who apparently attended the school where these strange events happened. It's difficult to consider it all that credible, which makes me wonder: do we have any more evidence for this one?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2017 19:02:29 GMT
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Post by Nalkarj on Aug 29, 2017 19:13:02 GMT
Nalkarj , I began reading about the Omar Raddad case and the first thing that came to my mind was the Mystery of the Yellow Room ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mystery_of_the_Yellow_Room ). I never read the book but I saw the 2003 movie www.imdb.com/title/tt0356922/?ref_=ttmi_tt . A french link with a lot of info on the case: www.police-scientifique.com/les-grandes-affaires/Omar-Raddad/Still, the mistake of using the infinitive (Tu er ) instead of the past tense (Tu ée) is no big deal in my book because a ton of french people still have a hard time with it on a daily basis. Heck, even my boss who has a master in administration still struggles with that when he types messages. As a whole, it seems there were too many people saying different things without putting them into perspective and some points got overlooked. I have read the original book, Mecano, and I'm quite fond of it, though I know some readers nowadays think it's weak. I appreciate its imagination and emphasis on what mystery writers call the "rearrangement in space and time" solution compared to a "mechanical" solution to a locked-room mystery. (Probably only the second one, after Zangwill's The Big Bow Mystery--many other locked-room solutions at the time involve variations on Poe's mechanical solution in "Murders in the Rue Morgue.") Good fun, and one of John Dickson Carr's (i.e., my avatar's) major inspirations. How's the movie? __________________________________ I'll try to look at the link as soon as I can, but what interests me about the dying clue here is that it's written at all. Hear me out: if you, with your last breath, knowing you don't have much time to live, are going to scratch out your killer's name, you would do just that--scratch out his name. Not a whole sentence, grammatically correct or not, because you know you're on your way out at that point. It's altogether too clear, pat, and neat--not the action of someone who knows his [or, in this case, her] last minutes are numbered. The fact that there is an entire sentence seems the stuff of books--which may indicate to me that the dying clue is faked. Who faked it? Well, as you note, the lack of proper grammar is not an indication one way or the other, so I've really no idea. Still, I find it unlikely that is a real dying identification of the murderer. There still remains, of course, the puzzle of the blocked door and (if I'm remembering correctly) Omar's alibi.
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Post by Nalkarj on Aug 29, 2017 19:13:34 GMT
Thankee! I'll be looking into those.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2017 19:14:22 GMT
I have a few questions about the validity of the Émilie Sagée case: do we have any evidence for any one of the claims usually made? I see only one citation at one source, and it's double hearsay--American politician Robert Dale Owen, who first wrote the story down, has it from German aristocrat Baron von Güldenstubbe, who himself has it from his daughter Julie, who apparently attended the school where these strange events happened. It's difficult to consider it all that credible, which makes me wonder: do we have any more evidence for this one? I don`t really know how valid it is. I just think its a fascinating story.
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Post by mecano04 on Aug 29, 2017 22:31:11 GMT
Nalkarj , I began reading about the Omar Raddad case and the first thing that came to my mind was the Mystery of the Yellow Room ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mystery_of_the_Yellow_Room ). I never read the book but I saw the 2003 movie www.imdb.com/title/tt0356922/?ref_=ttmi_tt . A french link with a lot of info on the case: www.police-scientifique.com/les-grandes-affaires/Omar-Raddad/Still, the mistake of using the infinitive (Tu er ) instead of the past tense (Tu ée) is no big deal in my book because a ton of french people still have a hard time with it on a daily basis. Heck, even my boss who has a master in administration still struggles with that when he types messages. As a whole, it seems there were too many people saying different things without putting them into perspective and some points got overlooked. I have read the original book, Mecano, and I'm quite fond of it, though I know some readers nowadays think it's weak. I appreciate its imagination and emphasis on what mystery writers call the "rearrangement in space and time" solution compared to a "mechanical" solution to a locked-room mystery. (Probably only the second one, after Zangwill's The Big Bow Mystery--many other locked-room solutions at the time involve variations on Poe's mechanical solution in "Murders in the Rue Morgue.") Good fun, and one of John Dickson Carr's (i.e., my avatar's) major inspirations. How's the movie? __________________________________ I'll try to look at the link as soon as I can, but what interests me about the dying clue here is that it's written at all. Hear me out: if you, with your last breath, knowing you don't have much time to live, are going to scratch out your killer's name, you would do just that--scratch out his name. Not a whole sentence, grammatically correct or not, because you know you're on your way out at that point. It's altogether too clear, pat, and neat--not the action of someone who knows his [or, in this case, her] last minutes are numbered. The fact that there is an entire sentence seems the stuff of books--which may indicate to me that the dying clue is faked. Who faked it? Well, as you note, the lack of proper grammar is not an indication one way or the other, so I've really no idea. Still, I find it unlikely that is a real dying identification of the murderer. There still remains, of course, the puzzle of the blocked door and (if I'm remembering correctly) Omar's alibi. I haven't read the book nor seen the other movies but that one was pretty good. The ending and solution were also pretty interesting. As for the Raddad case, I agree that simply "writing" the name would have done but, to play the devil's advocate, I don't think every decision made by a dying person is rational from an effectiveness standpoint. From the wiki, there is a question that isn't actually answered definitively anywhere: Was there another access to the cave? Journalist Ève Livet wrotte a book ( www.editionsladecouverte.fr/catalogue/index-L_affaire_Omar-9782707129284.html ). Sorry I can't find a link to readi it online. Here is a link to an interview on her process ( www.le-pays.fr/roanne/justice/2016/11/10/la-journaliste-amplepuisienne-eve-livet-avait-consacre-un-livre-a-l-affaire-omar-raddad_12146675.html ). From the wiki, (the #48 is a note to her book, above): "Y avait-il un autre moyen de sortir des lieux ?La journaliste Eve Livet se demande si l’assassin n’aurait pas pu sortir des lieux par la cave à vin. Ayant obtenu l’accès au dossier, elle dit y avoir constaté un manque : « Toutes les pièces du sous-sol étaient décrites, sauf une : la cave à vin ». Elle affirme que la cave à vin ne fut pas visitée lors du transport sur les lieux, et qu'avocats, juges, Omar Raddad lui-même, personne « ne se souvient y être entré et ne peut la décrire ». En outre, le procès-verbal d’un maçon, interrogé par les gendarmes en août 1991, indique que le travail qui lui fut commandé consistait « en 1989, à faire des aérations dans la cave à vin [...], puis dans un second temps, en été 1990, à rouvrir deux des fenêtres, qui avaient été bouchées lors de notre première intervention, pour assurer une meilleure ventilation de la cave ». Une personne aurait-elle pu ressortir par ces" aérations" ou fenêtres 48" So everybody overlooked or "forgot" one room that could have led somewhere else in the investigation or at least raise a doubt on the single-access-being-locked-from-inside version. We don't know the size of those windows, so we don't know whether or not somebody could get in the cave from them but it's still possibility. His alibi, also in Livet's book (same for the notes), is based on his presence at a bakery: " Vers 12h05, il dit avoir acheté du pain dans une boulangerie du Val de Mougins. Ce point est d’importance, puisque c’est précisément aux environs de midi, le 23 juin, que l’enquête situe le meurtre de Ghislaine Marchal. Le Capitaine George Cenci a voulu vérifier ce qu’il en était, juste après la garde à vue (voir supra). Il affirme que Raddad lui-même lui a désigné la boulangerie La Huche à pain, celle « où il n’y a pas d’escalier » [9], celle « où il y a un homme qui [le] sert parfois » 115. Vérification faite, personne ne se souvient de lui à La Huche à pain 116, où il n’y avait aucun boulanger à ce moment de la journée117. L’enquête en conclut qu’il n’a pas d’alibi aux environs de midi le 23 juin.
De son côté, Omar Raddad affirme n’avoir réalisé que bien plus tard, quand il eut accès à son dossier, qu’il y avait eu méprise sur la boulangerie. La sienne était « la première sur mon chemin – celle qui a des marches » écrira-t-il dans son livre, précisant y avoir fait longuement la queue ce jour-là 118².
Il y avait en effet une deuxième boulangerie non loin de La Huche à Pain. La journaliste d’investigation Eve Livet retrouvera, des années plus tard, cet autre boulanger, Marcel M. désormais à la retraite. Il lui confirmera qu’Omar Raddad était un client habituel, qu’il « venait assez régulièrement sur le coup de midi, midi et demi », et s’étonnera que la gendarmerie n’ait enquêté que dans l’autre magasin : « Chez nous jamais personne ne nous a posé de questions » 119. Lors du procès, le Président Djian déclarera en effet « ne pas avoir connaissance dans le dossier de vérifications auprès de l’autre boulangerie » 120. " I'm not sure what to think of the stairs part. From the prosecution standpoint it would seem he somewhat contradicted himself or at least gave a vague description but then from a defense standpoint he might have meant that there were no staircase like a separate structure added to the building but that there might have been stairs or steps (Tose images are only to compare not from the city or bakeries listed): Compared to: Still, the latest news I find goes back to nearly 1 year and it seemed liek the ADN poitned to someone else : www.bfmtv.com/societe/affaire-omar-raddad-la-justice-sur-le-point-d-ordonner-l-arrestation-d-un-homme-1054703.html
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Post by mecano04 on Aug 29, 2017 22:56:04 GMT
About Sagée's case, forget the 1960's, the mid 19th century was the high of LSD!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 0:02:32 GMT
It should probably be said that in the era of Queen Victoria it was very common with stories about Doppelgangers
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